Short thread- How I faced off against JWs and basically won....

I dunno what this proves- that I have been so torched by religion, I can take on ANY religion, I am completely nutso, or what.

I used to be a Christian, til I saw how stilted being a poor believer was- the deck is stacked, and the richer, more well off ones like to deal from the bottom of the deck. I quit believing. I stopped 'having faith', and I said "enough".

About 2 weeks ago, I was approached by a JW. He did the basic, usual preaching salespitch, and I answered him honestly and directly as to why ANY religion was out of my life. The unanswered prayers, the way my life has taken a left turn where *I* never directed it, the fact that none of what I have been thru doesn't make sense. I told him about the private torment I have had to endure- where NO prayer even dented it, to make it go away.

He asked to come back Tuesday, I said sure. Tuesday came, and he showed up with someone else (I kid you not, this guy was named Jimmy Olsen!). We then began. I presented my case- the loneliness, the talent, the fact no attempts by me to get any actual use out of my talent has gotten me anywhere. I was told how God was going to fix EVERYTHING. Notice that big capitalized word there- because when I stated what I really needed God to fix, I was told 'except that'. Ummm... What happened to 'everything'? I was told how people are doing basically criminal things in God's name, and I agreed- I told them it's a fact, anything can be made to sound good coming out of the Bible. I even did the running joke about probably being able to find a biscuit recipe in there. I laid it out that I am a little tired of watching the ones who hurt, rob, and screw the less fortunate into the ground like a welldigger get all the goodies, while the poor get nothing but promises and hot air. I explained how if god was as fair as advertised- where's the balance ? Where's even the remotest smell of fairness? I told them that by all rights, I shouldn't even be living/ talking to them/ be in that location/ single/ jobless- that to be honest, my entire perception of things has a dual 'alternate universe' quality to it. It's the only way I can explain how wrong my life is. Granted, they looked a lil uneasy at that point.. but like I said- I was HONEST. I showed them the talent I had. I also did this entire thing minus any bible at all. I think it worried them some of the answers I had, some of the questions I had, and (I admit) the almost insane thing about I am about as close to living in an alternate universe as someone can expect to get. BUT- There's no other way to explain what i have been going thru. None.


Have I managed to learn thru the school of hard knocks how to take on religion just on brute force, or.....?

[edit on 5-9-2009 by wylekat]

To me religion has become like training wheels. Organized religion i should say. It's helped mea lot, and i appreciate it, but I can't shuck this feeling that all the book burnings 2000-1500 years ago have left a wide chasm between the search and the truth.

Maybe it's just me, but it seems like you blame a lot of your problems on outside entities. God didn't do this or that for you. You have a gift? awesome. We all have them. Whoever told you that being religious was about sitting on your butt and just recieving gifts was a hypocrite that was lying to you so that you would join their camp....It is difficult to sell things to people who may not like what you're selling kinda thing.

Could it be possible that your gift hasn't been needed as of yet or something?

reply to post by heyo


I've been hammered by BOTH sides of the argument equally. "wait, and wait on "God" when I was wearing myself to the bone trying to get anything underway, and then 'God helps those who help themselves" when I finally threw in the towel. Scary thing- this stuff came out of the same sets of mouths. For lack of a better term as to what I've been thru, 'horrendously bad luck' is one way of putting it. Seems like no matter what I do (or don't do), the rules get changed, heck, sometimes I swear the laws of the universe get bent just enough to throw me into the mud. I know others have this problem, too- I never used to blame outside anything, until the cases for something external blowing me up just kept presenting themselves. Simple way to look at it: if I go up to a bee's nest, and whack it with a stick, and I get stung, welllllll......

When I am 5 miles away from ANY bee's nest, and the suckers seek me out and jab me, it's tad different, isn't it? It's what I have experienced. I frankly am kinda tired of it- but what really tossed me was I took on 2 people with bibles and had an answer for everything they could throw out-WITHOUT one as even a reference! I know the score- but it's also pretty obvious someone's fixing the game! (added) Not only that, I cant help but wonder if the religious types know it's rigged....

And when someone's fixing the game, it's impossible to win- all you can do is just see exactly how you're losing.

[edit on 6-9-2009 by wylekat]

My second wife was somewhat of JW apprentice for awhile. They might be right about some things like the monetary system, but I saw little evidence of anything brilliant about it. I had actually witnessed to them about some visons like 9/11 and they had told me to suggest such things would make me into the false prophet and that these were contrary to christ teachings about miracles in our days. And as if to suggest false miracles and worksthrough me.(as if many or any miracles were actually genuine) Since so much of what they said appears to have been wrong, I typically haven't much faith nor interest in most organized religions. I've also found temptations to be many times stronger when around these groups. It seems like it's always going to cost you something. Not to say there isn't anything good about it, but it would seem many just take advantage of the groups status and perks.

[edit on 6-9-2009 by aleon1018]

Sometimes, I wonder if most of these religions are just diff takes on the same franchise. Just like there's diff flavors of Muslim/ Islam. There were TOO many similarities. And it seems the results are universal- the poor give up their last few cents, and the rich live it up, use the poor for target practice, get away with it, and hide behind their deity of choice....

The REAL Christians, the real people who are caring and kind the people who deserve the best things in life, are 'punished' pretty much to keep them that way. Ive felt sorry for myself too but evolved to think that the greatest people do not ask for wealth, fame, recognisation for their work. They are happy just doing it.

We always think it would be nice to be rich but I think being rich is a sign of evil really. I mean no one needs wealth. Hoarding is greed. There are countless people who need help. People are driven by greed and money rather than compassion.

Religion does not do that to a person. It is a war within themselfs. Someone who would kill/harm/exploit and claim to be from a religion would do so in another religion, or even without one. The man who shoots an abortion doctor says he is Christian but is not.

reply to post by wylekat


Well it seems you're acknowledging outside sources yet you aren't? Maybe you're saying the God of the bible isn't the strongest outside source because you haven't recieved what you've wanted?
...Well I guess this ex-meth addict could only advise you that you can't keep score man. Trust the universe to be objective and your insistance of that outlook will force it to seem neutral to your senses.

Cause really, when it comes down to it, you're simply placing the blame on a source you cannot identify, thereby ridding yourself of responsibility. Life's just like that, bro. Always has been and always will be.

Originally posted by wylekat
Sometimes, I wonder if most of these religions are just diff takes on the same franchise. Just like there's diff flavors of Muslim/ Islam. There were TOO many similarities. And it seems the results are universal- the poor give up their last few cents, and the rich live it up, use the poor for target practice, get away with it, and hide behind their deity of choice....

Well F -ing Wylekat I feel the same way about life... I am not religious, but I recall
one day when I was 16 and very messed up I broke down and said "god if thing are going to get better show me a sign" (I know cliche) anyhow just then a shooting star pass right
in my direct line of sight. Anyhow 12 - 13 years later and things have gotten Much worse.

Anyhow I feel I can really relate to your misery, I am a guitar player, I planned my life
around this notion, I worked and work at it all the time, I spread my passion to writing and being a professional musician.
Anyhow when I was 18 my three year girl put me through the ringer like in the mud.
I got lost in drinking at that point for years. At 24 I moved to NEW Zealand to create a fantastic band, unfortunately thing fell apart and I had to come back to move in with my mother. I then sat in a room for four months and packed on thirty pounds.

I finally got my head together got a job a few weeks later received a call that my father was near death... He had a brain tumor, he and his new family needed my help constantly so it was very hard to hold a job, I would have to drive 70 mile each way. Sometimes I would have to drive there at night, drive back and then back in the morning, then back and repeat.

A year later my grandmother who was an alzheimer patient started dying.
The same week my mother fell off a twenty foot ladder and snapped her leg nearly off.
At one point for six months I had to TOILET, BATH and DIAPER two out of three of them. My MOTHER< FATHER< GRANNY all helpless, all the while I kept on with my plan.
My granny was so messed up I had to keep her alive with ensures and a turkey baster,
she would spit it on me and often spread poop on my face, lip or eye when I would change her diaper.

I kept on with my passion, finally I joined the right band and things started rolling... My mom got better (wheelchair) and granny died when I was down changing my dads diapers. As my dads disease got worse, the duty got worse, I did not have it in me to
run away from it all, I kept on with the band, still couldn't hold a job. Last year my band finally recorded a professional album, we released it earlier this year to good reviews. In July we had planned an east coast tour, as luck would have it my dad died two weeks before we were to leave, the same week my girlfriend of five years decided to move to New Orleans.

Got back from the tour and the drummer pressed the other guys to kick me out of the band, instead of that he quit, the next day I quit.

Point is I feel you, I could have never imagined such a hell on earth before, the years I NEEDED to make my dreams come true were taken by all this tragedy and bad luck.

I am 29 now and I feel my life is over, the world has grown very ugly for me, I have endured and have always tried to be the better man, DO WHATS right, I am MISERABLE. Unfortunately I do not even have god to blame - my life is like a bad movie . As of recent I just feel worse and more hopeless -

Sometimes I think "god" has a plan - but after reading your post and typing my saga
I think it is just random screwing that happens.

I feel you

its pretty easy to scare off ANY religious peddlers, if you tell them after finding them on your stoop, that you are just about to light the tall black candles to your beloved dark leader, and would they care to join in on the ceremonies as you could use an extra chanting voice or two?

They will pass every single time, and be in a hurry to leave.

[edit on 6-9-2009 by theRiverGoddess]

reply to post by wylekat

Bush Jr. is presidential material X2, governor, millionaire, Yale grad, etc....

Life just isn't "fair"....... Or... is it?

The "Bible Story" sez life on Planet Weasel is a taste of "Hell". You didn't think Planet Weasel was "God's Country".... Did you?

If one were to really "believe" the "Bible"... then you would really be one whacko freaky soul.

Cuz... there be monsters out there, Bro. Lion... and Tigers... and Predators like out of a Hollywood Sci-Fi flick.

The "Monsters" took over and "they" seek someone to devour.

If you are one of "God's" you will be attacked......... from birth.

Yahshua was attacked from birth.... or so the story goes. Things never did seem to get better for The Man. The "Predators" harassed, gang stalked, slandered, beat, tortured, and then executed Him.

What I would ask you who believe that you are under attack...... is this.

Do you have what it takes to do to others what is being done to you?

If not.... then where else do have to go? If from birth you are a COG/Child of God then you will be hated and under attack from day one on Planet Weasel.

The Apostles referred to this life as a "furnace of affliction".... ask yourself what you are willing and capable of doing in pursuit of your "goals".

Our "goals" will define the means by which we must achieve our "goals".

Do you have what it takes to be a "winner" in this world? If not... maybe this is not your "Kingdom".

Those who love this "world" will instinctively pursue those who are not "of this world".

It just "The Way" things are...

Originally posted by Ridhya
The REAL Christians, the real people who are caring and kind the people who deserve the best things in life, are 'punished' pretty much to keep them that way. Ive felt sorry for myself too but evolved to think that the greatest people do not ask for wealth, fame, recognisation for their work. They are happy just doing it.

We always think it would be nice to be rich but I think being rich is a sign of evil really. I mean no one needs wealth. Hoarding is greed. There are countless people who need help. People are driven by greed and money rather than compassion.

Religion does not do that to a person. It is a war within themselfs. Someone who would kill/harm/exploit and claim to be from a religion would do so in another religion, or even without one. The man who shoots an abortion doctor says he is Christian but is not.

Hi Ridyha/

Well said!


Lifes Sufferings is a type of healing of which effects all of the body and senses!
All life experiences differ, some a little more, some a little less.
To believe in a creator,one must also try and understand why the creator would cause Afflictions ?
Why do parents punish children or the Law punish criminals?
Is it not so that we may be taught a lesson?

Sayings of the Early Orthodox Fathers...
Quotes///''
~Affliction~
Affliction was allowed to make those afflicted more careful and more pious''. REF:Saint John Chrysostom
When one is weakened in body,physically and or mentally, one becomes aware that the human body is not all powerful as it may have previous thought.
One should also aknowledge that suffering makes us aware of the little time of existence we have on earth,and we should wisely do good of what we have.

~Spiritual sayings~

''What rain is for seeds, tears are for those who are afflicted''… REF:Saint John Chrysostom
Without rain there wont be any shoots,
So, without tears one cannot realise their faults eg/Pride and Humility
Pride being a high opinion of oneself!
And Humility being the opposite of pride!
I'm aware that there is false pride and false humility....as I'm aware that each of us are also aware if we are truly being honest to ourselves.
the good of Patience~

ICXC NIKA
helen

Originally posted by wylekat
I dunno what this proves- that I have been so torched by religion, I can take on ANY religion, I am completely nutso, or what.

it only proves that when the answer is not what you want, you stop listening.

for example.. you say, "The unanswered prayers, the way my life has taken a left turn where *I* never directed it, the fact that none of what I have been thru doesn't make sense. I told him about the private torment I have had to endure- where NO prayer even dented it, to make it go away. "

me. me. me. me. me.

serving god is not about us. its about doing god's will. do you think it inconvenienced moses when god refused to let him into the promise land? what about when jonah didnt want to preach to the ninevites, you think it was jonah's plans to get swallowed by a fish? what paul and his unanswered prayers regarding his "thorn in the flesh"

god is not a cosmic cash machine. prayer is not about what you can get from god. its communication with him. its building a bond with him.

the JW's were right to say that everything would be fixed in the future.

rev 21:[3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
[4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

how much better do you want it to get? what are you expecting to change in satan's world?

let god take care of satan's world and then see if things dont get better, till then worry about doing god's will, not whether or not god will do your will.

p.s. - if you think that wealth is a sign of god's blessing, consider that jesus "hath not where to lay his head."

reply to post by miriam0566


Great reply, even Jesus prayed that he would not have to endure his fate yet conceded to the will of God.

great. I've been punished. I never wanted gobs of money (til recently, I just got tired of being poor, treated poor, told I couldn't afford a wife because I was poor, got tired of the rich rubbing their wealth in my face at church)... I only had 2 desires for my life, which I worked mightily for.

The thing that I am pointing out is the rhetoric the religious community throws at people like me- all of it confusing. No one has had a straight answer, and all I have gotten are the same cliches, and not a single, solid excuse. I think that might be one reason I was able to mow over those 2 guys... I wasn't going to listen to the same tired song and dance- I can sit down and go over the music and the dance steps and pick them apart- much to the upset of the religious portion. Now when I get told "In God's timing" I point out every last factor and nuance that shows that cliche is 1) an excuse from a deity who has whatever reason to get around to me (laziness? "Clean the garage" "When I have time" *sit on sofa, drink a beer, watch the game*) An excuse because the people who comprise the religion and are SUPPOSED to be doing 'good works' are too lazy, irresponsible, or dishonest- and they need an out, Or... they are completely clueless (yeah, right.) Or it's nothing more than a comfort phrase so they don't go looney tunes. I say that because I have seen people who have been beaten to a pulp by life, who say this stuff- and you can tell in their eyes they don't mean it, and they are clinging to the words like a drowning person does to a piece of wood with no hope for rescue.

It's like this: If I botch up something, I grumble, and then move on. I take responsibility for my stupidity. When it's someone or something ELSE, I don't. I have been blamed more than enough times for other people's crap and stupidity, and made to fix it, and MADE to be responsible- and I just simply will not any more.

Like the sad tired cliche goes:

"God is in control"
"Well, if God is in control, God is to blame for the crazy crap I have been thru, huh?"
"No, God isn't responsible for that"

"But you said, 'God is in control'"
"But God isnt responsible...."

That's like saying if I am driving a car with people riding with me, and I decide to drive off a bridge, it's THEIR fault I did it. When lunatic crap *I* certainly didn't do happens and someone tries to a) pin it on me or b) pin it on me, but tell me some faceless power is in control but not directly responsible, I get a little irked.

I have been trying to get control of my life back into my hands.... believe me. To be honest, it aint easy!

reply to post by miriam0566

serving god is not about us. its about doing god's will. do you think it inconvenienced moses when god refused to let him into the promise land? what about when jonah didnt want to preach to the ninevites, you think it was jonah's plans to get swallowed by a fish? what paul and his unanswered prayers regarding his "thorn in the flesh"

Tell ya what. I'll come by, take your entire family from you, take every cent you have, and toss you out in the middle of nowhere (and when I say nowhere, I MEAN nowhere) with nothing but a burlap sack to wear, and no hope for anything ever being the same again- and see how long you spout that religious gibberish. I guarantee it wont be more than 48 hours before you're just how I am.

It's all so easy to point and preach when it is NOT YOU who has been scorched. It's so easy to be so frigging religious and righteous when YOU aren't the one who's been pushed thru the shredder nuts side up. It's so easy to hide behind your religion when it isn't YOUR dangling participles that are dipped in gasoline and set on fire.

This is the point I make. There's so many of these types who sit back, and have their bag of popcorn and click their tongues at people who struggle and finally just say 'the hell with it' and throw in the towel, and berate for 'not getting with the program'. I'll listen to you AFTER you've gone thru what I have. Walked a mile in my shoes. Lived my life for 6 months at least. When you can come back and PROVE it, THEN I will listen to your religious diarrhea. Until then, Shut it. KthxBai. Mental Modulator's been in my shoes. others have been in my shoes- and I can relate fully to them. The rest of you self righteous religious parasites don't have clue ONE about what real pain, or suffering is, or watching all you have done wiped off the face of the earth without as so much as a 'how ya doin'. It always did strike me funny how it's the poor, and the destitute, and the truly unfortunate who are supposed to be doing God's work, while the well off just sit back and gather the goodies, and dictate to us from the window of their fancy house.


It's why I quit the whole thing.

God this has made me angry!!
You think you have troubles? Try this for size!

When I was a kid i was constantly abused.. Sexually abused, bullied mercilessly at school and at home by an alcoholic father who would do things like dangle my bro by his feet over the balcony of our flat, throw hot oil at us-missing thankfully-our mom to doped up on cough mixture all the time to give a rats ass. Having no food, no power, nothing! I had to start work at 13 just to buy clothes.

As soon as i could, i joined the british army at 16 to get away, where i was also brutalized by the old sweats in my unit who thought is was fun to use hot irons on the new guys etc. I went to war, the first gulf war, then did a three and a half year stint in northern ireland where i lost best friends to the scum PIRA. All the time still having to endure abuse from the local population, being spit on and called all sorts, someone tried to set me on fire, i was shot at, bombed by the very catholics we were there to protect from loyalist scumbags.

I married an irish girl, had three kids. I was posted to germany were the abuse escalated by some nco's who broke into my married quarters whilst i was asleep and i was beaten up whilst i was in bed! I called SIB (military police) and pressed charges. Because of this i was shunned by the rest of the unit. The wife moved back to Belfast with the kids, and i was left to deal with everything alone. Whilst she was in Belfast, my wifes sister introduced her to drugs, loyalist paramilitaries, and was nailing everyone with a pulse. I wpould get calls from her mom begging me to come home to sort her out because all the money i was sending wasnt been used to set up house but to fund her new "lifestyle". My son was sleeping in a clothes draw!! The army wouldnt let me go so i went awol to sort my family out. I came home to find my wife had become a drunken druggy slut and my kids all over the place. I sorted them out then handed myself in. When i got back i was put in jail, but whilst there found out that my wife was back up to her tricks. I had a nervous breakdown, couldnt handle it and tried to commit suicide. I was discharged from the army on mental grounds with no treatment from them.
I went back to Ireland to hell. Loyalists paramilitaries had taken over my house and my family. My wife was having an affair with some of them, and she wanted rid of me so told them i was MI5. I was dragged into a back ally on my estate and a gun was put to my legs whilst another was punching me in the mouth interogating me. By the grace of God they let me go.
I left my wife and moved into my own place with nothing but a chair. I had to endure watching my ex and her boyfriend walk past my window every day purposly, him bouncing my kids on his shoulders..
I was under constant threat by those people up to the point where i was forced to come back to england.. A total paranoid, anxiety filled wreck. Agrophobic, couldnt leave my house, traumatised to the extreme!

I blamed God, i became full of hate for my life and cursed him for making me.
But i learnt something; "no servant is greater than his master, the world hates you because it hated Me first." Those who God loves will suffer. He never promised us who come to Him an easy life but one of suffering. The world knows where we are going and wants to take it from us, curse God, become hatefull, un-loving, denying Him who sufferd on a cross. The world hates Him, and if it hates Him, it will hate you too.
Those who quote all this prosperity stuff are not christians but servants of the one who wants to take you from God. Jesus didnt have a house, His servants were poor, beaten dispised and killed. Jesus was able to endure the cross, and His servants their suffering because they knew what was comming after.
Our life is but a vapour compared to eternity, and that is what God has given us, forever! Dont give in to the world, take responsabilty for you own life and fight back!!

reply to post by Selahobed

Those who God loves will suffer

As a fellow abuse -e, I can relate. Thing is- when someone 'loves' you, and then heaps the abuse on a mile thick- that is NOT love in my book. It's just more abuse. It can be sugar coated until ya get sick off it, but it's still abuse. I am truly sorry you've been slapped around like you have. NO ONE deserves abuse. I got to be honest- I heard about God's 'loved' ones suffer the worst, and that angered me more than the abuse itself. I love my cats- I don't abuse and torment them because I love them! I love my loud, obnoxious roosters- I don't go out and pluck out their feathers! What kind of crazy stuff is that?! Can you imagine an eternity of this because we're so loved, God has to torment us???

Egad!

reply to post by Selahobed


hi Selah/

I blamed God, i became full of hate for my life and cursed him for making me.
But i learnt something; "no servant is greater than his master, the world hates you because it hated Me first." Those who God loves will suffer. He never promised us who come to Him an easy life but one of suffering. The world knows where we are going and wants to take it from us, curse God, become hatefull, un-loving, denying Him who sufferd on a cross. The world hates Him, and if it hates Him, it will hate you too.
Those who quote all this prosperity stuff are not christians but servants of the one who wants to take you from God. Jesus didnt have a house, His servants were poor, beaten dispised and killed. Jesus was able to endure the cross, and His servants their suffering because they knew what was comming after.
Our life is but a vapour compared to eternity, and that is what God has given us, forever! Dont give in to the world, take responsabilty for you own life and fight back!!

Your words in the quote above are exactly what suffering is truly about...Said wonderfully!

suffering to each of us comes differetly...
You kept falling and everything around you kept falling, but you never gave up!
A good lesson to all of us....thank you!

ICXC NIKA
helen

reply to post by wylekat


Mate I had those same thoughts, I let the "woe is me" thought process take over my life and happiness, until i realised that this was a tactic to take me away from my destiny... God allows this to happen and it seems cruel, feels cruel, and makes you feel rejected and hatefull. But having come throgh this i realise now that it has shaped my character to such a point that I now trully live up to my name: Craig which means rock..
I now see that i was a rock with rough edges that needed to be smoothed out. But unfotunatley, one as stubborn as myself dont take in these life lessons very easily so have to learn the hard way making that smoothing process hard to bear.
God doesnt molly coddle anyone, especially those who He loves! A bit like the mother bird who pushes her chick out the nest to learn to fly.. Seems cruel, but without the push, that chick would be fodder for predators, not be able to feed, and would never achieve its flying full potential... If life is a test, then if you are not being tested then you should worry, because God has passed you by, but if you are being tested, the greater the testing the greater the future God has for you, and i believe He has!
My advice to you is to accept the test, pass it, and dont hold onto bitterness, because it will wear you down and eat you alive.. Let it go.. Unforgiveness does the same..
I wish you all the very best

:

So what- I am able to barrel thru religion's games like a hot knife thru butter- but I've been poisoned by it as well...?

Well, that sucks.