Hitler and Lenin playing chess.

This astounding picture purporting to capture a young Adolf Hitler playing chess against Vladimir Lenin 100 years ago has been put up for auction. Prospective buyers will be taking a huge gamble on the authenticity of the picture, said to have been created in Vienna by the Fuhrer's art teacher, Emma Lowenstramm. It is titled 'A Chess Game: Lenin with Hitler - Vienna 1909' and the vendors claim the signatures on the back are of the two dictators.

www.dailymail.co.uk...

Wow. I am pretty shaken by the idea in general,that two people who caused so much death and suffering could have actually sit together and play chess. All the "conspiracy" possibilities are obvious even to me ,with almost non-functioning conspiracy gland.
Again, wow.
Only problem i found is that in this photo ,made one year earlier, Lenin looks indeed much bolder. Just as expert said. But who knows? It could be games with shades in photos or even Lenin with toupee?
Picture of bold eagl... no ,bold yawning Lenin in 1908:
www.marxists.org...
ATS - thoughts? I am too amazed by this to reach a conclusion right now.

How did the two know each other?

maybe they were skull and bones men!



or perhaps some other super elitist frat club.

I drew Stalin and Elvis playing tiwster together.

its a drawing not a photo. i would take it with a grain of salt.

[edit on 3-9-2009 by feedpeopletosharks]

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


Apparently the etching is still under scrutiny and has not been determined to be authentic. Interesting though.

reply to post by MR BOB

its a drawing not a photo. i would take it with a grain of salt.

Well, this is true. But the thing is that it is now being auctioned and the experts verdict is "not clear". Not "hoax". I also have hard time trusting this possibility, but before i read this article i did not even considered two meeting a possibility by itself. Why someone would hoax Hitler and Lenin game of chess? It would be pretty easy to disprove if false. All it takes is to show that Lenin/Hitler could not be in the same time in this place. Hitler was pretty obscure then but Lenin surely was followed by secret services.

I wonder who won the game?

I thought this was about them playing metaphorical chess. Which they certainly did too.

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


To my eyes, the "Lenin" actually bears much more resemblance to TROTSKY.

Anyway I can't see how an etching could be evidence for any historical event of the kind.
But it IS interesting!



P.S. It's depressing (but not surprising) to see how little the average journalist knows about basic historic facts... The opening sentence in the article says: "Their opposing ideologies would be a central part of the most destructive military clash of the 20th century."

"Their opposing ideologies"...?
Their ideologies were anything BUT "opposing". They were practically IDENTICAL.
That - some dare to argue (and I wholeheartedly agree with them) - was the whole point of the later war between the URSS and Germany.
Their leaders were fully aware that - to use a "wild West" analogy - there was only place for ONE of them under the sun.

And this is, absolutely and irrevocably, my last political/ideological comment within this thread.











[edit on 16-9-2009 by Vanitas]

But the thing is that it is now being auctioned and the experts verdict is "not clear". Not "hoax".

Don't forget the (initial) experts' verdicts in 1983 about Hitler's diaries... ;-)

That was one funny mess.

Originally posted by Vanitas
reply to post by ZeroKnowledge

 

To my eyes, the "Lenin" actually bears much more resemblance to TROTSKY.

Anyway I can't see how an etching could be evidence for any historical event of the kind.
But it IS interesting!

[edit on 16-9-2009 by Vanitas]

Trotsky/Lenin could be two faces of the same coin.
What they wrought in Russia, the neocons have brought here to the USA.
Modern neocons are present descendants of Trotsky.

reply to post by Vanitas


Methinks you are quite confusing Lenins communism with its brutal successor: Stalinism. The latter being almost identical to Hitlers Fascism, yes, but Lenins vision of communist Russia was a far cry from what Stalin turned it into, hence why Trotsky was exiled and hunted for 20 years. The reporter is still incorrect in any case, and should brush up on basic secondary school history.

Whether this drawing was made innocently or to make some sort of political point, the relationship between the rise of Communism in Russia and then the rise of Hitler in Germany should not be overlooked.

The basic unspoken pattern behind these events has to do with the actions of other forces who could have seen the destabilization of these countries as in their interests. We know that European bankers, even through some American interests, supported the Nazis financially. It is thought that the same interests also helped finance the Communist movement in Russia.

The purpose behind any such move is seen as an attempt by some financial interests to create situations from which they can profit. If you believe some of the serious stuff being written about the Illuminati, you get a picture of some very wealthy guys all tied up in a myth that they are the "chosen" rulers of earth who have been denied their sacred destiny through the ignorant actions of various other forces. They tended to support other fanatics with similar views, knowing that they would be susceptible to influence on the one hand, but ultimately prove unpopular and become political failures. Their vision seems to be a situation where the politicians will be popular, but will be totally controlled from behind the scenes.

I don't know that the authenticity of the drawing or of the incident it depicts is as important as the obvious irony it conveys about how these two men, destined to rule opposing regimes, benefited from a common patron.

Originally posted by D.E.M.
reply to post by Vanitas

 

Methinks you are quite confusing Lenins communism with its brutal successor: Stalinism. The latter being almost identical to Hitlers Fascism, yes, but Lenins vision of communist Russia was a far cry from what Stalin turned it into, hence why Trotsky was exiled and hunted for 20 years. The reporter is still incorrect in any case, and should brush up on basic secondary school history.

Let me see if I have this correct. Lenin and Trotsky drag the Tsar and his wife and all his children out into a cold isolated field. Then proceed to shoot them to death while one watches the other die.
Cold blooded terrorism.
So are you saying that was good but when Stalin retaliated it was bad?
Methinks you must live in a country where you are taught some canted history at an early age.

reply to post by D.E.M.



No, not really. Because the ideology underlying the Stalinist regime was indeed identical to Leninism - I mean, in its essential premises, and in practice. (And let's not forget the virulent antisemitism, rampant in Russia long before the Nazi leaders were even born.)

But that's a long - albeit fascinating - topic.


P.S. Gawd... I forgot my resolute resolution not to add any more to the political angle of this particular thread.
OK, now I am really REALLY done with it. :-)






[edit on 16-9-2009 by Vanitas]

reply to post by Donny 4 million


I am unsure what you are referring to when you speak of Stalin retaliating. If you had any clue concerning the conditions in Russia under the Tsars, then you would understand why the Romanov family was executed out of hand. It's not as if Lenin and Trotsky hauled them out and shot them themselves, either. Oddly enough, the execution was carried out under the order of the Supreme Soviet which, in those days, represented the will of the people much as your congress or parliament does today.

Stalin retaliating? Stalin didn't retaliate to the execution, if that is what you are referring to. Stalin spent years quietly putting the right people in the right places, ensuring that when Lenin died he would left as the most powerful man in the party. Once Lenin was dead, all he had to do was exile Trotsky and he had a pretty dictatorship set up, from which he proceeded to casually cause the deaths of about 20 million Russians.

Stalinism is a dictatorship, Leninism was idealistic communism. Stalinism simply used Leninism as its face to the unwashed masses. I suggest you brush up on your history of political ideologies and history a little more before jumping on the "ZOMG COMMUNISM = FASCISM" bandwagon

Originally posted by Vanitas
reply to post by ZeroKnowledge

 

To my eyes, the "Lenin" actually bears much more resemblance to TROTSKY.

Anyway I can't see how an etching could be evidence for any historical event of the kind.
But it IS interesting!

P.S. It's depressing (but not surprising) to see how little the average journalist knows about basic historic facts... The opening sentence in the article says: "Their opposing ideologies would be a central part of the most destructive military clash of the 20th century."

"Their opposing ideologies"...?
Their ideologies were anything BUT "opposing". They were practically IDENTICAL.
That - some dare to argue (and I wholeheartedly agree with them) - was the whole point of the later war between the URSS and Germany.
Their leaders were fully aware that - to use a "wild West" analogy

- there was only place for ONE of them under the sun.

And this is, absolutely and irrevocably, my last political/ideological comment within this thread.

[edit on 16-9-2009 by Vanitas]

Actually neo cons would like everyone to believe this rhetoric.
There is a great distinction between Hitler and Lenin.
They both contained about the same amount of Jewish blood. Hitler opposed Jews and Lenin embraced them.
IMO the difference was manifest by and how the two countries digested there diet of Karl Marx.

That doesnt look like Hitler to me...

Second line.

As one who has deep respect for thinking people and intellectually honest discussions (especially at venues where these are relatively rare ;-), I feel I simply have to explain why I do not want to discuss ideologies and politics HERE: simply because I do not want to hijack this thread and make it degenerate into something that it wasn't supposed to be (especially considering I am not its author).

HOWEVER, if anyone wishes to open a relevant thread - e.g. Nazi vs. Soviet ideology - elsewhere, I'd be glad to join (time permitting, of course).


PS. So, to get the discussion back on track... is anyone else of the opinion that the hairy chess player looks much more like Trotsky?







[edit on 17-9-2009 by Vanitas]