A Rebuttal To James Carrion's Article On Stan Romanek

Greetings Forumerions,

Chuck Zukowski sends us his rebuttal to "James Carrion's Article On Stan Romanek":

It came to my attention James Carrion, MUFON’s International Director, who also refers to himself as “Truth Seeker” has submitted a blog on Stan Romanek who I am one of the Independent Investigators for. Hey James! Are you sure you’re not known as “The Smoking Man”? he he (ie. old X-Files) I don’t think James smokes, but after reading his blog on Stan, maybe he should start. Yes I’m a MUFON Field Investigator as well as a MUFON STAR Investigator, but I’m also an Independent UFO Investigator which includes “non” MUFON investigations. For various reasons, some people prefer not to use MUFON, so people like me are available for them and their needs. (Especially after James’s last blog ”feud” with the “Open Minds Forum”.) I guess I’ll be getting pretty busy.

The rest of the story . . .

Cheers,
Frank

reply to post by Frank Warren


I gotta be honest Frank, these peeing matches are really off putting to me. Call me old fashioned, but I think collaboration is a lot better than cannibalization.

Evenin' Fls13,

Originally posted by fls13
reply to post by Frank Warren

 

I gotta be honest Frank, these peeing matches are really off putting to me. Call me old fashioned, but I think collaboration is a lot better than cannibalization.

Although I haven't absorbed all of Zukowski's particulars in his rebuttal as of yet . . . Carrion made salient, sober points in his argument, and a "pissing contest," his was not.

Cheers,
Frank

Originally posted by Frank Warren
Evenin' Fls13,

Although I haven't absorbed all of Zukowski's particulars in his rebuttal as of yet . . . Carrion made salient, sober points in his argument, and a "pissing contest," his was not.

Cheers,
Frank

Sometimes you just gotta let things go whether salient points are there to be made or not.

Isn't there a "Truth Seeker" on ats? Could it be the same person?

2.

Originally posted by fls13
reply to post by Frank Warren

 

I gotta be honest Frank, these peeing matches are really off putting to me. Call me old fashioned, but I think collaboration is a lot better than cannibalization.

Oh it seems to be a common theme in ufology today...

Internal bickering between ourselves, mainly over ego and personal beliefs. It was a problem (and still is to some extent) elsewhere but seems to be under control a bit now. Right now ufology is in a code red IMHO, we can NOT continue like this.

Originally posted by jkrog08
Oh it seems to be a common theme in ufology today...

Internal bickering between ourselves, mainly over ego and personal beliefs.

Sometimes it seems there is less concern with the truth and more concern about personal validation. People do not want the truth, they want to be right.

Zukowski's response reeks of immaturity. Not only is the style he employs immature, but unable to find effective counter-arguments to Carrion's points, Zukowski descends into name-calling and distraction tactics with his hamfisted implication Carrion is a disinformation agent. Reading this response, how can anyone take Zukowski seriously as an investigator?

[edit on 31-8-2009 by DoomsdayRex]

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex

Originally posted by jkrog08
Oh it seems to be a common theme in ufology today...

Internal bickering between ourselves, mainly over ego and personal beliefs.

Sometimes it seems there is less concern with the truth and more concern about personal validation. People do not want the truth, they want to be right.

Could not agree with you more, greatly insightful post.

I wonder though, is this internal 'battle' due to the fact that it seems ufology as somewhat stagnated?

[edit on 8/31/2009 by jkrog08]

Originally posted by jkrog08
I wonder though, is this internal 'battle' due to the fact that it seems ufology as somewhat stagnated?

I think in a certain way it is always been stagnate. We are no closer to the truth today than we were in 1947. And there have always been these battles; combine passionate personalities with no formal organization (say like legitimate sciences have) with no way to separate the truth-seekers from the validation seekers and with no way to remove the latter, these fights are bound to happen.

And I think much of the current "battles" are among the Old Guard, those who think they have the truth and the Young Turks, who question this supposed wisdom and employ more critical-eye than the Old Guard is used to.

As an addendum; the Old Guard vs. Young Turks is not a battle of generation but ideology. There would be many in the UFO field who have been active for a long time I would consider "Young Turks" and those not active for any measurable length who could be considered "Old Guard."

[edit on 31-8-2009 by DoomsdayRex]

reply to post by DoomsdayRex


Very good, I agree. But I also think ufology has been very tainted by proxy due to the whole "channeling", "GFL" type incidents. Also the fact that some factions of ufology have gone considerably fringe (ie; Moon bases, Mars Tracks, Secret Space fleets, etc)... Now while I personally do believe in some of those theories, mainly due to personal contact reasons , I believe that many ufologist these days tend to jump on those theories as if they are fact, I mean it is hard enough trying to get people to be open to aliens flying around spaceships, let alone secret US-Alien bases on other planets! Again, while I do think so of those reports are factual I just do not think right now is the time for ufologists to bring those out in any widespread form to the public. I just think that now is the time to lightly spam the public with top UFO cases and educate them. Because I truly believe that the only way ufologist will ever force any kind of truth of the situation is with MUCH more support than now.

Now back to the "super fringe"(moon bases) vs "fringe"(UFOs)... I think that also causes further divide in our field. WHY?? Because each side is so passionate (with the exception of some straight up cons) about getting "the truth" out to the public that each as really entered somewhat of war with each other, as you said. Thus we have the ever growing divide between the "sleptical ufologist" and the "believer ufologist". It should NOT be like that, but it is right now sadly. I recently made the transition to the more scientific (ie; skeptical) side, because I saw that obviously there was nothing to gain from the other side. The way to make progress is to PROVE things, not FORCE HEAR SAY THEORIES down peoples throats. That is my opinion anyways..

Originally posted by jkrog08
Could not agree with you more, greatly insightful post.

I wonder though, is this internal 'battle' due to the fact that it seems ufology as somewhat stagnated?

Fresh ideas and fresh perspectives are needed in every field. Of course there are a very limited number of truly compelling UFO incidents that come down the pike in a given year but new ways of thinking about familiar subjects is important.

Originally posted by jkrog08
Thus we have the ever growing divide between the "skeptical ufologist" and the "believer ufologist".

I think is the chief cause of the conflict between the Old Guard and Young Turks. The Young Turks realize there is a place for skepticism and critical thinking within this field, something that is sorely needed. The Old Guard are not tolerant of skepticism, simply because they have never faced it before, at least not in a form that was easily not dismissible. They had venues such as conferences, and uncritical TV specials and Coast to Coast where their views were never challenged in a meaningful way. But with the advent of the internet and programs such as the Paracast, they find their views being looked at with a critical eye and do not know how to handle it.

[edit on 31-8-2009 by DoomsdayRex]

Mornin' Fls13

Originally posted by fls13

Originally posted by Frank Warren
Evenin' Fls13,

Although I haven't absorbed all of Zukowski's particulars in his rebuttal as of yet . . . Carrion made salient, sober points in his argument, and a "pissing contest," his was not.

Cheers,
Frank

Sometimes you just gotta let things go whether salient points are there to be made or not.

I'm afraid I have to respectfully disagree; Romanek is making some grandiose claims; he has written a book, is making public appearances, and as such is the case this precipitates investigation.

The Romaneks reached out to MUFON, and as Carrion has written, he was personally involved, and now has chosen to write about it in his personal Blog; through the lens of research, I not not only deem this valuable, nut necessary.

Cheers,
Frank

reply to post by Frank Warren


Well here's what Carrion wrote. Pretty reasonable in my view.

From that Zukowski writes:

Chuck Zukowski
Hey James! Are you sure you’re not known as “The Smoking Man”? he he (ie. old X-Files) I don’t think James smokes, but after reading his blog on Stan, maybe he should start. I love James’s first paragraph in his blog on human behavior as if he is “above it” to observe and manipulate.

Debating, disagreeing without being disagreeable is fine. I don't think Zukowski's comments were necessary at all.

[edit on 1-9-2009 by fls13]

fls13,

Originally posted by fls13
reply to post by Frank Warren

 

Well here's what Carrion wrote. Pretty reasonable in my view.

From that Zukowski writes:

Chuck Zukowski
Hey James! Are you sure you’re not known as “The Smoking Man”? he he (ie. old X-Files) I don’t think James smokes, but after reading his blog on Stan, maybe he should start. I love James’s first paragraph in his blog on human behavior as if he is “above it” to observe and manipulate.

Debating, disagreeing without being disagreeable is fine. I don't think Zukowski's comments were necessary at all.

[edit on 1-9-2009 by fls13]

Zukowski certainly could have done without the sarcasm . . ..

Cheers,
Frank

Maybe it all is about personal reality. After all, who can you trust these days?

But I do think that there is a lot of hoaxing out there and a lot of people who are unfortunately being drawn into a web of hoaxes and disinformation. If it weren't for my personal anomolous experiences, I think I would tend to believe that every case is a hoax. And that is partly thanks to people like Romanek who seems to be passing off a puppet as an alien, along with other hoaxes. Is he just another Adamski? I know an old associate of Adamski who confirmed that Adamski did perpetrate a lot of hoaxes (such as photographs), but he did tell me that he did witness authentic UFOs when he was with Adamski - suggesting the possibility that Adamski was also possibly some sort of real contactee.

I must say that the more I follow ATS, the more I think that it is 99% total crap and nonsense.

But that is just my opinion.