A Universe of Negatives...negative-height, negative-width, negative-depth...

What I'm doing here is asking people to post what they might perceive as a truely Negative Universe. How might we perceive something as bizarre as Negative-dimensions? What if all matter particles in a truely negative Universe repelled each other, in stead of versa-visa? (Yes, I know what I typed.)

Give it a go! Let me know! Oh BTW, rate me HIGH!



[Edited on 11-5-2004 by Toelint]

Well, the negative dimensions don't matter, it's just a method of measuring? Changing all charges doesn't matter either. Changing everything from matter to antimatter makes a slight difference, because there is evidence that some decays are different in antimatter (CP-symmetry violation). The real thing that matters is the effect the matter has on the curvature of space. We only know of positive masses, but general relativity does not exclude negative mass. Negative mass would mean that the particles would repel eachother through gravity, instead of attracting eachother.

I wonder if Negative Matter could curve matter instead of Space! Okay, that's too weird, even for me. Why isn't a Vacuum concidered Negative Matter? Help??

Originally posted by Toelint
I wonder if Negative Matter could curve matter instead of Space! Okay, that's too weird, even for me. Why isn't a Vacuum concidered Negative Matter? Help??

Matter and negative matter would both curve space (officially I should call it spacetime). The theory that describes how this works is general relativity (a simple introduction).

The curvature of space, which is gravity, depends on the mass/energy in nearby regions of space. Normal mass is positive, as is normal energy. Positive mass/energy bends space in such a way that paths of particles converge. If negative mass/energy existed, it would diverge the paths of particles and therefore the particles seem to repel eachother. Negative mass/energy has never been seen, although there are some theories that say that vacuum has a negative energy density, thus causing the expansion of the universe to accelerate.

Heres more possibilities ... how about Inverse Space and Imaginary Space?

Space: 5
Negatve Space: -5
Inverse Space: 1/5
Negative Inverse Space: -1/5
Imaginary Space: 5i
Negative Imaginary Space: -5i
Inverse Imaginary Space: 1/5i
Negative Inverse Imaginary Space: -1/5i

5 was just a number that popped into my head becasue 1 wouldn't work (1/1=1). Explain that and what it could mean amantine ... HEHEHE

I don't know really. I think all can be used to define a certain type of space. If you are able to define them, they can exist. I do not know what properties they will have.

Fractional dimensions are linked to fractals. I think I read somewhere about models for spaces with a imaginairy or even quaternion of octonion geometry. These get really weird and it gets very difficult to define anything of nature in such spaces. But I don't have enough mathematical experience with this, sorry.

Okay, which of the examples you cited might qualify as Phase Space? I'm pretty sure the space between waves in matter signatures might qualify as one of your examples too. Of course, that's just me...


This is getting wierd!!

You DO understand I expect YOU to come up with most of my ammo, right? I'll just help dream up the targets!

Personally, I see a LOT of new Star Trek episodes in all this.

Hey...wait...I'm kidding!! I'm kidding!! AAaaaacccckkk!!

[Edited on 13-5-2004 by Toelint]

A Universe of Negatives...negative-height, negative-width, negative-depth...
aaaaaaand negative people! To fill the negative universe. And we all get sucked into a black hole type of vacuum with a negative charge, which we actually all enjoy because the positive is too crushing for our wonderfully perfect negative selves to enjoy. And so we go slide slide slippitty slide up through that negative whirlwind which is spinning backwards and inwards because all that is negative and all that is fine is negative and right on time! We make it into the great nothingness of nowhere. And are finally, nothing.

oh. forgot to sign my name.

no one

[Edited on 5/13/2004 by SamaraMorgueAnn]

Originally posted by xenophanes85
Heres more possibilities ... how about Inverse Space and Imaginary Space?

Space: 5
Negatve Space: -5
Inverse Space: 1/5
Negative Inverse Space: -1/5
Imaginary Space: 5i
Negative Imaginary Space: -5i
Inverse Imaginary Space: 1/5i
Negative Inverse Imaginary Space: -1/5i

5 was just a number that popped into my head becasue 1 wouldn't work (1/1=1). Explain that and what it could mean amantine ... HEHEHE

You may also want to think about the relationship between Time and Space too.

Space/Time: 5
Negatve Space/Time: -5
Inverse Space/Time: 1/5
Negative Inverse Space/Time: -1/5
Imaginary Space/Time: 5i
Negative Imaginary Space/Time: -5i
Inverse Imaginary Space/Time: 1/5i
Negative Inverse Imaginary Space/Time: -1/5i

Also, by Negative are you speaking about Polarity as well as a complete Reversal of all physics. Such as:
Reverse Entropy
Matter - AntiMatter
Dark Energy
Gravitational Push
and so on??

This question is mainly about symmetries in the laws of nature. All theories are translation, rotation and mirror symmetric. It doesn't matter if you add a number to every coordinate, if you rotate the coordinates or if you mirror them (positive/negative). Charge is also symmetric, it wouldn't matter if all things negatively charged now would become positive and all things positively charge would become negative. General relativity has the property that it is time symmetric: you can reverse time and the theory still works.

Mass isn't symmetric though and it seems like the matter/antimatter difference isn't either. There is way too much matter in the universe, which may be caused by difference in decays between matter and antimatter.

One guess is that imaginairy dimensions may have symmetries similar to quaternion mathematics. This would mean that calculations in those universes are not commutative, e.g. a*b is not b*a. I have no idea though what this does to the laws of nature.

Negative, Inverse, Imaginary-Space/Time/Matter/Energy...

Personally, I think we've stumbled upon the other Twelve Dimensions

Originally posted by Toelint
Negative, Inverse, Imaginary-Space/Time/Matter/Energy...

Personally, I think we've stumbled upon the other Twelve Dimensions

That brings up a good question. What is your various opinions on Dimensions? Here is how I usually think of it. Some of this is standard. After 4D I'm not sure if there are other similar theories as this or what, part of why I'm asking....

1D - Single direction between two points (Ex. Line) (x)

2D - Line with additional point but flat (Ex. Plane) (x+y)

3D - Full Spacial (Ex. Cube, Sphere, etc.) (x+y+z)

4D - Spacial with Time (Hypercube) (Space/Time Relativity) (Ex. Sphere[x+y+z] Travels [t] seconds from 'Then' to 'Now'.) (Now I think is the Key here.)

5D - Spacial w/Time(NOW) with Probable Variances (Particle/Wave Duality) (Many Worlds Theory) (EX. Sphere + Now[is] + Past[was] + Future[probable or possible])

6D - Spacial w/Time (Actual & Probable) with Previous Unknown Imagination or Creative Inspiration of Novelty. (McKenna's terms worked well there I guess.) (Imaginary Dimensions) (Omni 'All & Nothingness')

At this point I'm not exactly sure how to word or give examples for 6. The Imaginary Dimension thing you said earlier seemed to work well there though. Not sure if I'd be correct in using it like that or not though. It seemed like the only other Boundless, Original & Complete way of representing the idea though.

Well, what do you guys think?? Comments??

[Edited on 13-5-2004 by mOjOm]

Well, mathematics doesn't have any problem with higher dimensions, even infinite amounts of them. Physics has to use an amount of dimensions that agrees with our observations. General relativity sees spacetime as a 4 dimensional Riemannian manifold, which basicly means a smooth object with 4 dimensions that has a metric. The time dimension is treated a bit differently than the space dimensions though: the flat spacetime metric is (-1,1,1,1) for (t,x,y,z).

With n dimensions spacetime would be a n-dimensional Riemannian manifold according to general relativity, because Riemannian manifolds can exist in any integer amount of dimensions. There would be nothing like creativity in other dimensions according to general relativity.

String theory usually uses 11 or 12 dimensions, which are broken into two parts: the 4 dimensions we live in and 7 or 8 dimensions which are so tiny we don't notice them on macroscopical scale. These dimensions are required for the string to vibrate in certain ways. The 4 dimensions left would still be a Riemannian manifold, if I'm correct (string theory is not my expertise). String theory also does not place things like creativity in other dimensions.

Originally posted by mOjOm

1D - Single direction between two points (Ex. Line) (x)

2D - Line with additional point but flat (Ex. Plane) (x+y)

3D - Full Spacial (Ex. Cube, Sphere, etc.) (x+y+z)

4D - Spacial with Time (Hypercube) (Space/Time Relativity) (Ex. Sphere[x+y+z] Travels [t] seconds from 'Then' to 'Now'.) (Now I think is the Key here.)

5D - Spacial w/Time(NOW) with Probable Variances (Particle/Wave Duality) (Many Worlds Theory) (EX. Sphere + Now[is] + Past[was] + Future[probable or possible])

6D - Spacial w/Time (Actual & Probable) with Previous Unknown Imagination or Creative Inspiration of Novelty. (McKenna's terms worked well there I guess.) (Imaginary Dimensions) (Omni 'All & Nothingness')

At this point I'm not exactly sure how to word or give examples for 6. The Imaginary Dimension thing you said earlier seemed to work well there though. Not sure if I'd be correct in using it like that or not though. It seemed like the only other Boundless, Original & Complete way of representing the idea though.

Well, what do you guys think?? Comments??

[Edited on 13-5-2004 by mOjOm]

i think that's pretty cool. if i imagine that's the way it is, the exponentially expanding spheres of possibility cease to be recreation. (at this point we may want to reference finnegan's wake for practical koans of hyperdimensional existence).

The fall(bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonnerronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenthurnuk!) of a once wallstrait oldparr is retaled early in bed and later on life down through all christian minstrelsy. The great fall of the offwall entailed at such short notice the pftjschute of Finnegan,erse solid man, that the humptyhillhead of humself prumptly sends an unquiring one well to the west in quest of his tumptytumtoes: and their upturnpikepointandplace is at the knock out in the park where oranges have been laid to rust upon the green since devlinsfirst loved livvy.

JJ online(link)

[Edited on 13-5-2004 by billybob]

Thanx for the replies, amantine and billybob.

As for yours, billybob, I am looking into your link. That is about all I can really say at the moment. Your reply left we with a sort of, "hmmmm, Uhhhhmmmm, hmmmmm" kinda feeling ya know. I'll get back to you on this one later....

Very Good. I forgot to account for the fact that alternate universes MUST have at least two Positive Dimensions in order for us to perceive them...

Okay...here it goes...

Positive, Negative, Inverse, Imaginary Space/Time/Matter/Energy

Correct me if I'm wrong...but doesn't that equal 92?

4x3x2x1x4....and how many elements appear in nature...92? Okay, NOW I need some coffee!!

Right, 4*4*3*2*1 = 16*6 = 96 and there are 116 elements known. These elements are also not linked to dimensions, but to proton/electron numbers.

[Edited on 15-5-2004 by amantine]

Its Space-Time right not really Matter/Energy-Time so I kinda find it hard to imagien something with negative spatial dimension, in mathematics it could work ofcourse but in real life, how could that be so?

In space there is really no such things as forward, as forward could be ANY direction and still be forward, same with back left right etc. So you cant extend somthing 'backward' to make it negative because that would still be a forward.

Matter Anti-Matter is interesting too, but new news; they think that its possible to combine anti particles together with normal particles to make new molecules and atoms. A whole new world of chemistry.