What if there is No God? At all!

Problem is people confuse being created with being human

:~)

God really doesn't answer any questions for me because his existence would make me pose more questions.

Well if God made the Universe then who made god?

[edit on 7/11/2009 by die_another_day]

Originally posted by badmedia

I find it a bit humorous(not in a bad way) that you mention god and the word "chance". Because it is because of god that there is chance, choice and such to begin with. This universe is based on action and reaction. Laws that are repeatable in a lab over and over. It has no room for choice or chance.

God is the "observer" of quantum physics. Soon as you throw consciousness and choice in the mix, it becomes taboo and our basic foundation of science breaks down as things are no longer repeatable over and over when choice enters into it. No god, no choice, no observer, no life, just a bunch of patterns happening over and over like a machine does.

You can't even generate a truly random number in this universe.

I agree completely. "Science" and "Spirituality" are the same thing to me. After reading Carl Sagan's books I read on the internet that he considered himself an Atheist and I laughed my [expletive] off. His books, and books by Michio Kaku and others, are spiritually enlightening to me.

I have a hard time talking about my personal spiritual perspective however, because all things in this world (imho) appear rather paradoxical, and so is my personal perspective, so it's easy for others to challenge and difficult for me to justify. I don't think personal spiritual perspectives should really be verbalized.

Anyway, I don't really "believe" in anything, because there is always something I don't know and figuring it out changes my perspective. I don't "worship" anything, I just strive to understand more each day.

Big thanks and mad props to whomever it was that posted the index of Spirit/Science articles.

Originally posted by die_another_day
God really doesn't answer any questions for me because his existence would make me pose more questions.

Well if God made the Universe then who made god?

Consciousness is eternal, and without time. It just "is". Such is not a question anyone can answer, for that answer you will need to take a deep and personal journey to understand. But you would come to understand why it is impossible for such to not exist, as there would be nothing to perceive or know it didn't exist. The very act of being able to perceive is really evidence of god for those who understand.

It's kind of like when people say stuff like - I'm going to laugh at everyone when after we die nothing happens. And I'm thinking, umm no you won't, because that in itself would constitute consciousness/life after death and you would by default be wrong.

reply to post by die_another_day


and it that not the point?

the question you ask?

oh well who made god ? who made aliens who made the planet who...

notice anything ?

THE BLOODY QUESTION is the connection!!!

why why why why why

do you know when i studied physics i noticed this?

the stupid function of asking why we are here is the very answer

has always been the answer LOL

why?

well why the hell are you asking in the first place?


and what is you want to know?

honestly what? what is it u keep searching for? the truth? truth of what?

that you alive?

what a load of stupidness

the very fact you are here asking should be a clue ?

the function of asking WHY you are here is the very same thing you live inside

does it matter who made you? will you ever get the answers?

no you wont.. because if you did YOU WOULD BE THE ONE ASKING WHY

do you see how the logic works in this case??

you did not make you , but yet you ask why you are alive

what a bloody waste of time

ill give you some hints

INFINITY - this is what happens when you ask god why god made you and who is god and why we are here

as shown in mathmatics..

P.I is the same thing a mearusment of the cirumfrence of a cirucle .. why would you want to messure a bloody shape? why would you have a shape in the first place

why has your body got 2 arms 2 legs?

do you not see the logic here???

what ever we are in DOES NOT CARE but we are NEEDED and when i say us I DONT MEAN HUMANS

LIFE my friend is like binary code

1/0

0 is death

what made both?

who cares, the important part to life IS STAYING HERE

that was you gift my friend AND THATS WHY YOU NEEEEEEED TO get on with the job of being here

not asking WHY WHY all the bloody time

reply to post by eMachine


Yes, or as Jesus would say - what is spirit is spirit, and what is flesh is flesh. There shouldn't be any conflict between the 2, the conflict arises when people think they must accept 1 or the other. But when one has proper understanding, then there is no reason to just choose 1 or the other.

Science is great for understanding our universe. Creation is based on logic, and science is about understanding that logic. Works great, allows for many advancements. But it simply can't handle or deal with choice, consciousness and free will.

Spirituality and Philosophy(religion in a pure form), is best suited for the choices, consciousness, understanding and so forth. Not so great for finding out how to create a combustion engine and so forth.

Science = realm of action and reaction/logic.
Spirituality = realm of reason and understanding.

In other words, you can't have science without the scientist. Nothing can be observed with an observer etc.

Need to have a good balance. As far as the earth goes, spirituality has been put on halt for at-least 2000 years, while technology and science has increased a ton. And given the power of technology - especially when mostly advanced by the military, without good reason and understanding is a recipe for disaster.

The fight between them is senseless.

reply to post by badmedia


what you have to understand is this... and i have made a post

you are one of the same thing

why?

does the universe have a shape? "no"

does your mind have a shape? "no"



what do you think happens if you add them both?

MIRRORS

you are a self reflection of the function of how the universe works

how?

simple

you are NEEDED

something made you the same way it made the universe

your mind is the same thing as the universe

thats why it gets bigger every time we meassure it

and thats why your knowledge expands as you grow up

very basic maths

we are here for a reason because if we wasnt we wouldnt be would we

well if you believe there is no god based on science 110%

that would make Scientologist's right?

reply to post by TheAmused


no

you see understanding you was created is not the same as thinking you was not

god? what is god? a man? a person?

people confuse GOD with Jesus,,,,,

I do think "myself" that something created us and everything we see

do i thin it was god in the bible? NO i dont.. why? because man wrote the bible not god

Fact

being happy not knowing why or who is good enough for me,.,,

I did not question being born, why should i question when i die?

the silly part? the middle asking why you are here in the first place

reply to post by symmetricAvenger


I know exactly what I am. I have been the bottom of the rabbit hole. It's called the father/son relationship. Which is all a matter of perception and limits.

The son and father are one in the same. The father is that which knows all, experiences all, and is the only observer. The son is the father, but the son is reduced to a limited perception in order to have the experience of life. Thus, while the father and son are the same, the father is much greater than the son.

Like a movie film. The father, is all knowing. He see's the movie film from start to finish. It has no time, no change, all is known. The son is what happens when you take that same film, cut it up into little pieces(dimensions), where does not see all, and you watch the movie as it changes from dimension to dimension(time). Without that limited perception of the movie, that "reality" could not exist.

Only, when you start to understand choice and freewill, then you will come to realize it's not just a single film, it's an infinite number of films, and instead of a "directors cut", it's more like a choose your own adventure book. Where every choice you make moves you to another "film". Right now, 2 possible films/futures you can take. You can raise your hands, or keep them down. Both are possible films/realities, which becomes real is your choice.

And so, now you are no longer looking at the action and reaction of this universe, but reason and understanding. And that is why you will reap what you sow, and that is why things like morality and such are important. Because your choices determine your path across those things.

Sure, some things are "locked" in. Such is where you have given away your free will in order for an experience, same as with the movie film. Think of a poker game, you can physically look at the cards, but you don't because without the limited perspective and rules that are locked in, the game couldn't exist. You'd only bet when you knew you were going to win.

So I can agree it is a mirror. And that it will automatically change and adjust to what you need because of the way your choices are reflected back. MJ's song "Man in the mirror" was an expression of this(he didn't write it). Everyone is always trying to change and force things on the "man in the mirror", rather than fixing their own ways. And of course, there are certainly elements that are all too happy to provide that service and make you think it's the right way.





[edit on 7/11/2009 by badmedia]

Gentlemen/women, let's not derail the thread with Philosophy.

The OP has very specific questions and where are the religious fundamentalists to whom the OP seems to be appealing? We're supposed to be discussing the hypothetical situation of being told that there is unequivocably NO God (although it's not clear who would be making that proclamation)... whether that is possible or not, is not the question.

(Edited for grammar, which may not be correct even after editing, because the American public education system failed me.)

[edit on 7/11/2009 by eMachine]

reply to post by badmedia


let me only ask one question and please answer it in the best way you can and be honest

did you have the freewill to be here?

understand what is is i am asking my friend

no such thing as free will... that is called arrogance.

how can you have free will if you was created?

were is the logic in that? everything that happens in your life no matte what "choice" you think you are making

was never yours

was it?

or is it?

are you god?

are you the thing that created all you see?

so what would make you think you have "free will"

E logical

just like asking god "or what ever made us" WHY

why?

a description of chaos and from that came you

correct?

yin yang?

your mind Ying your body Yang

the universe Ying ur mind Yang

creation = question

we are not asking the question You are the answer to one

; )

reply to post by FritosBBQTwist


Thank you for a most interesting thread. As others have, I cannot limit my responses completely to my personal opinion. Some of the more interesting responses have addressed whether or not societal structure would collapse in the absence of God. Others have intimated that man is inherently bad and that the "death" of God would only lead to more evil behavior. I disagree on both counts. Ethics exist for the atheist, the agnostic, the theist. To hitch ethics to spirituality is a vast leap. The root of morality is the stability of society. The individual wants to know what to expect the consequences of his behavior to be. Through the course of human experience certain behaviors have been considered to be good while others are evil. Each human being decides what action to take and chooses to do so. Many have generically condemned mankind based on the behavior of individuals who acted outside the rules of conduct that had previously been necessary for the existence of society. A Hitler, Mussolini, and a host of others have acted in their own self interest from the beginning of time. I am reminded of John Steinbeck's discussion of monsters in "East of Eden". The following appears in Chapter 8: "I believe there are monsters born in the world to human parents...Monsters are variations from the accepted normal to a greater or a less degree...To a man born without a conscience, a soul-stricken man must seem ridiculous. To a criminal, honesty is foolish. You must not forget that a monster is only a variation, and that to a monster the norm is monstrous." There will always be those individuals who struggle against the monsters among us for the good of society. This will happen in the presence or absence of God as it always has. For every Hitler there is a Roosevelt, a Churchill. For every Charles Manson there is a Vincent Bugliosi. This will never change for the ever present question for each man is what is the meaning of his life. Read Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning. The meaning of life is unique to the individual but it is formed in the context of the society in which he lives. Frankl quotes Nietzsche, "He who has a Why to live for can withstand almost any How." Freud said the meaning of life was pleasure. Adler said it was the quest for power. Frankl said it was the quest for meaning. Things beyond your control can take everything you have away except for your decision as to how you will respond to those circumstances. For Frankl, who survived the concentration camps during WWII, the meaning of life was found in work, love, and responding with courage to seemingly unbearable circumstances. IF your premise that God did not exist was proven, it would still be necessary to function as an autonomous individual making conscious choices of how to react to the circumstances in which we live. I would still love my wife, my children, my work, and in my work I would still choose to fight the monsters among us. To slip into negativity produces nothing.

reply to post by symmetricAvenger


Yes, I am here by my own free will, and I do not have to be here. Part of free will is the ability to give it away, most usually we do this in order to have an experience, such as the poker example.

If you want to believe you don't have free will, well that is your choice and free will.

I love religious people they are so full of them self's.


THERE IS NO PROOF GOD EXISTS.

You pray and worship something that is completely in your imagination.

reply to post by xweaponx


Well, I very heavily disagree with you and I'm sorry you think that. I still can't understand why everyone needs proof.

We have a physical reality.

We have emotional feeling.

We have spiritual enlightenment.

Now call me crazy, I just do not see how all of those principles of life, wrapped up in one, came out of a so called "big bang".

But alas, I'm going to be called brainwashed and a sheep again because I don't see the "facts of science".

As for the OP, Happy Birthday. Hope it was a good one.

Originally posted by xweaponx
I love religious people they are so full of them self's.


THERE IS NO PROOF GOD EXISTS.

You pray and worship something that is completely in your imagination.

A God is anything you want to make it,whatever you put first in your life is your God,it could even be yourself.If your looking for a creator you have to prove that to yourself,anyone can tell you, but thats all it would be,them telling you.

Why do you need proof that there is a God? What's the point? Would you live your life differently if you had indisputable proof?


This is your logical fallacy right here... you are assuming that if he is real we could prove it. HOW do you KNOW that?
You can't. We barely understand the physical workings of our own world and quantum theory is complicating and clarifying that more all the time... how could you logically expect the nature of GOD to be within our comprehension to a degree that we could offer a logical Proof?
It is also possible that, if there is a god, HE specifically and intentionally set things up so there COULD NOT ever be any *Proof* of His existence! It may be "part of the game" so to speak.

So, you see, you cannot just work from the assumption that if there is a God we should be able to prove it... that is simply illogical.


I think you're confusing proving God with proving the being described in the bible.
So you are essentially *Assigning* attributes to him then claiming he can't be real because of those attributes?

Hint: The words of MAN cannot be used to disprove the existence of GOD...


This has gotten so far from the OP and I just contributed to that fact, My apologies.
All I meant to do was share this quote:


"It is as true in morals as in physics that all force is imperishable; therefore the consequences of a human action never cease."
—Tennessee Claflin


[edit on 11-7-2009 by azureskys]

1) Do you think you're day to day life would change. No, I'm already living a good life

2) Would you change your behaviour. No, I'm already being a good person
3) Would you be harsher to people. No. Do unto others..........
4) Would you strive harder in life, knowing your legacy is all there is? I already do

5) Would anything change, would you continue on praying, knowing 100% in your heart you're praying to nothing, but your own imagination. I don't believe in a god so none of this would change.

Hopefully in that situation people would have to live up to higher standards. No more crutches of religion, dogma etc... They will learn to handle, comprehend and solve problems on their own without praying for divine intervention. I believe it would make humanity stronger and more kind. There's no one to blame but yourself. It's a whole new age of personal responsibility. We are all born good and bad. Consequences of our actions determine how we participate in our society. Believing in a god will never make you good, and being good doesn't have to mean you believe in a god.


[edit on 11-7-2009 by favouriteslave]

[edit on 11-7-2009 by favouriteslave]

it's better to be atheist than to believe in a god that tells people to kill infidels, apostates, enslave women, and that sort of stuff, if you know what i mean.

but seriously, i'm fairly sure a lot of people would just meditate instead of pray, since it's relaxing & healthy.

Originally posted by Republican08
4) Would you strive harder in life, knowing your legacy is all there is?

I would do everything in my power to become a world dictator. If there are no eternal consequences, what's the point in anything less? In that case, get the gold, the broads, and absolute power! Oh, and crush all your enemies on the way up.

Sure enough, my personal fall from power would be just as grand. But if there's no God, then life is a tale told by idiots. Just atoms in the void, yeah? So in the end, anything at all that happens in an atheistic universe is ultimately of zero consequence and significance.


[edit on 12-7-2009 by Praetorian Guard]