Why are so many ATS'ers "anti-Environmentalist?"

Originally posted by mental modulator
... there is no room for consensus when it come to politicized issues.
Its one way or no way...

CONSENSUS
–noun, plural -sus⋅es.
1. majority of opinion.
2. general agreement or concord; harmony.

America's declining literacy rate disturbs me.

Originally posted by Symbiote

Originally posted by mental modulator
... there is no room for consensus when it come to politicized issues.
Its one way or no way...

CONSENSUS
–noun, plural -sus⋅es.
1. majority of opinion.
2. general agreement or concord; harmony.

America's declining literacy rate disturbs me.

Sir, have you taken any basic science classes?
CO2 has a natural tendency to absorb radiation (like from the sun)absorbing specific portions of the photo energy which in turn transfers into heat.

Nice subtle tries at insults, guys.

I'm coming, sooon, to respond in full.

Great post silent thunder...

I find you get three types of Climate change deniers... The first is what i call, the Testosterone driven block head... Normally male, thick as two short planks, does not really understand anything about climate change except that it means they may not be able to drive their SUV’s in the future. So they come out with ridiculous bravado like “I don’t care if the planet dies, who cares about whales, I burn trees for fun, I’m such a tough guy nothing scares me” Blah bla blah bla blah. The truth is that when GW does really start to affect them they will wet their pants.

The second type is much more clever and deceptive. In their hearts they know that bad things are happening due to human influence but they are selfish and will use their intelligence to pick holes in the Climate Change argument. They will accuse scientists of being left wing communists who want to destroy “our way of life” with their wicked evil plan to stop chopping down trees... hmmm

The third is, what i call, the Jerry Fletcher syndrome. They see conspiracies everywhere. Especially anything that is accepted by the mainstream. In the 80’s they were probably screaming about the government conspiracy to cover up GW. Now GW is excepted by most people, they scream that GW is scam, a conspiracy to take away our freedoms.

They are a bit like smokers. You get some who, when the doctor tells them that smoking will kill them, just say “good, i don’t wanna get old anyway” and then you get some who try to provide pathetic anecdotal evidence about their friend’s uncle who lived to 112 and smoked 60 cigarettes a day. As if that is somehow proof that smoking is good for you! And then a tiny minority who will say nicotine opens the mind to a fourth dimension and that the powers that be don’t want us communicating with the creatures that reside there.



But... why do people do this???


I'm afraid we have created a society, in the developed world, where people love money, are selfish, and do not want to take responsibility for their actions... Most people are like spoilt children. They wallow in their wealth and still manage to have this kind of "hard done by" attitude, as if the world owes them something. When someone points out that the way they are living is destructive and having a negative impact on our world they stamp their feet and throw a tantrum like a little child who is going to have its toys taken away. People will cling on to any scrap of evidence that clears them of guilt, thus allowing them to continue living how they want.

It is very easy for corporations to sell the anti environmental propaganda to people who are in this mind set and cannot handle guilt... it gives them something to hold onto while they continue living the unsustainable life they have become accustomed too.

In the developed world we live like kings while the rest of the planet rots. But what goes around comes around.


[edit on 6-7-2009 by Muckster]

reply to post by Muckster


I think you hit the nail on the head.

Originally posted by Muckster
I find you get three types of Climate change deniers...

You forgot the bulk of people - those that see that there is a changing climate but also see that the evidence does not support that it is man made.

Oh .. and there IS a conspiracy with Al Gore and his Carbon Credit scam.
Read up on it. He's making $$$ off of it.

Doesnt seem like you compiled alot of evidence to back your hearsay. Mabey our planets dying, but we dont have very much to do with it. It will dye with out without us.

reply to post by Muckster


Or it could be we see whats really happening...when governments across the world put a pittance into actual viable solutions to pollution problems in one hand and on the other think taxing the average joe is a good idea and the solution to all our problems,while spending trillions bailing out bankers...priorities? you do realise that a trillion dollars spent properly could completely end most of the poverty in the world? Nevermind the energy and pollution issue.

Originally posted by mental modulator
Second, why don't you tell us which planet is the hottest???

Third, which planet is closest to the sun?

Finally, why aren't the answers to the 2nd and 3rd question the same?

The terrestrial body green house effect was FIRST observed with Venus. It boggled the scientific community in the good old days and once spectral analysis came along it was determined that CO2 was off the charts in comparison to Earth and Mercury.

You cannot not compare greenhouse effects of Venus with... a planet with practically no continuous atmosphere!! If there is only trace elements as an atmosphere that is constantly dissapearing and getting replenished, it is not going to hold any heat whatsoever.

You can not hold venus as proof that CO2 is a driving force within our climate.

Instead of looking at Venus, look at Earth. For the last decade we have been pumping CO2 into our atmosphere. The worlds oceans and volcanoes are pumping out far more CO2 than we are. And during this decade of increasing CO2 levels, according to you our temperatures should be rising ever higher, yeah?

Temperatures have been on a donward trend since 2002.

Some might say that this is because of the recent solar minimum. But others who cry "CO2!!" say that the sun (as in our main heat source) does not actually affect the climate. Do you agree that if the temperatures have been dropping, then CO2 cannot be the driving force in our climate?

[edit on 6-7-2009 by Curious and Concerned]

As the great Neil Young says.
Oh, mother earth,
With your fields of green
Once more laid down by the hungry hand
How long can you give and not receive
And feed this world ruled by greed
And feed this world ruled by greed.

Oh, ball of fire
In the summer sky
Your healing light, your parade of days
Are they betrayed by the men of power
Who hold this world in their changing hands
They hold the world in their changing hands.

Oh, freedom land
Can you let this go
Down to the streets where the numbers grow
Respect mother earth and her giving ways
Or trade away our childrens days
Or trade away our childrens days.

Respect mother earth and her giving ways
Or trade away our childrens days.

We are polluting the world with chemicals, plastic, toxic waste etc., the orangutang is in danger because of our use of palm oil in many products and bio fuels. Insects bees buttterflies in ever decreasing no's. Food production making way for bio fuels. Rearing cattle produces more greenhouse gases than cars. Plastic oceans in the Midway Islands causing Albatrose deaths..they mistake lighters for squid and feed them to their young.
Governments banging on about piddling measures to save energy and creating useless devices such as Carbon Credits are indeed tinkering with the problem.
Stopping the destruction of the Rainforests and stopping pollution of the Oceans are the real answers - The thing is that these measures are to difficult for Governments to face, because of vested interests and so on, until they are forced to.
By then of course it may well be too late

Originally posted by Muckster
It is very easy for corporations to sell the anti environmental propaganda to people who are in this mind set and cannot handle guilt... it gives them something to hold onto while they continue living the unsustainable life they have become accustomed too.

And now it is even easier for the corporations to sell their "pro-environmental" propoganda to people who are gullible and think these corporations actually care for the environment.

Take for instance polar bears. They've been used as the poster child for AGW, dying off due to our actions. At least that's what Al Gore claims, and organizations such as WWF are happy to repeat it. When in reality, they are doing just fine.

The polar bear is being used to spur the world to take drastic action against climate change. Facts derail this call to arms. This is the climate change scare writ small.

In the 1960s, there were probably 5,000 polar bears around the globe. Forty years later - thanks largely to a reduction in hunting - the World Conservation Union (IUCN) counts five-times that many.

The world's 25,000 polar bears live in 20 distinct populations. Two populations are growing. Most are stable. Just two are waning.

The declining populations are in areas that have gotten colder over the past 50 years. The habitats of the two thriving groups have actually become warmer.

source

Then people think these corporations have the solution. Cap and Trade. They feel morally justified in doing the right thing, when it is not actually solving anything. Like Al Gore, paying carbon credits, for his uber excessive energy consumption at his palatial property, to his OWN carbon trading company!

Although I have this view point, it does not make me 'anti environmentalist'. I'd encourage everyone to recycle as much as possible (although often recycling comes at a cost, like having to ship it overseas to get processed), be as energy efficient as possible and look at what your putting into the environment.

Yes I am skeptical about the effects of AGW, but I am not a 'denier'. Yes our climate is changing. It has for the last millenia, it's not going to stop now because humans like it the way it is. We are always going to have to adapt, as we have no control over our climate. But while we here we should try to protect what we can.

[edit on 6-7-2009 by Curious and Concerned]

This is not a liberal vs. conservative issue. I am about as liberal as you can get but I've seen what has gone on behind the scenes and it ain't pretty. It is a perfect scam perfectly designed for the non-thinking sheeple. Anyone who believes in this simply because they consider themselves left-wing is not doing their homework.

I support the clean up of the environment 100%. I do not believe CO2 is a pollutant like many do and now funding has gone completely away from the REAL environmental protection such as monitoring corporations for polluting heavy metals, etc. and the focus is completely on this NON-problem (AGW) with everyone and his uncle coming up with their own subsidized NON-solution.

The environmental movement has been hijacked and perverted by opportunist NGOs and corporations.

Tom Adams is one of the leading energy consultants in Canada. Hardly right-wing by any means. At one time he was all gung-ho about the "green" solution. He now sees what REALLY is taking place...Watch-->




[edit on 6-7-2009 by Gamma MO]

[edit on 6-7-2009 by Gamma MO]

Originally posted by Symbiote

Originally posted by mental modulator
... there is no room for consensus when it come to politicized issues.
Its my way or no way...

CONSENSUS
–noun, plural -sus⋅es.
1. majority of opinion.
2. general agreement or concord; harmony.

America's declining literacy rate disturbs me.And my mother looks and smells like a goat what should I do mental modulator?

Thanks! You should let her be free to graze and use her milk on your cereal!

[edit on 6-7-2009 by mental modulator]

Originally posted by mental modulator
Because they are conservatives...

And in America there is no room for consensus when it come to politicized issues.
Its my way or no way...

My edit -DOG also purchase a bell so you can keep track of her


[edit on 6-7-2009 by mental modulator]

we have been decieved. While there is no doubt problems are being caused by us and should be fixed, the wrong things are getting all the attention. Because Al Gore is an idiot and can only parrot what he is told to say, we have a whole group of people (myself included) who cringe at the sound of those two words. (Global Warming) Our Earth had been here long before us and will be here long after us. But we can improve the quality of our earth and hopefully not destroy our living conditions. I will say this one and I will even shout if for the ones who are deaf (OIL. Oil is the reason we are destroying our living conditions. There is so much profit for the greedy based on who has control of it, that nobody in power will let a new resource be ushered in. Ok so now there are two big problems. Greed and Oil. So in my opinion Global warming is a crock made up by greedy people with a political agenda. Our earth needs to be taken care of and plastics along with the burning of oil need to be toned down massively. The problem is the people who are not greedy don't have enough money to be heard. So here we are fighting over the existence of a made up problem to disguise the real issue. Kind of like fighting over which group is the bigger idiots, Democrats or Republicans. In the end, who gives a flip.

reply to post by Muckster

Now GW is excepted by most people

Emphasis mine.

A Freudian slip

Genius.

The earth isn't "dying", it's changing. "Climate Change" can't be stopped, nor should we want it to stop. Our existence is too miniscule to allow us the arrogance to measure the change in terms of a lifetime, or generations.

Instead of taking away the rights and jobs of our nation's citizens (when other countries like India and China won't follow suit RE: Cap and trade ((Making it even more worthless)) people should focus on being real enviornmentalists.

Like composting, recycling, growing your own food, conservation, enjoying and respecting nature, etc.

On a macro level, let's tackle issues like the big garbage pile in the pacific ocean, fresh water conservation, bringing dilapitated buildings/regions back to nature.

Global warming/Climate Change, at a government level, is an avenue to take away your money and freedom. We should want nothing to do with it.

Many people are aware of the environment and are changing.

In the UK in the last ten years the following has happened.

1. Many people recycle their rubbish
2. Cars are less environmentally damaging (My old car did 30mpg, my newer car does 50mpg)
3. Greener energy such as wind farms and solar heating
4. People purchasing recycled products such as paper
5. Less packaging for consumer goods
6. Less free plastic bags given out by supermarkets
7. Homes better insulated
8. More people working from home
9. People composting their garden and kitchen waste

etc

Based on the latest scientific evidence (not opinion of politicians wanting money), there is no global warming. However, there is pretty much universal acceptance in "Climate Change". That I agree with. Now, I think the Earth is more in danger of being poisoned by humanity. Toxins, etc. So, I do consider myself at least environmentally aware - now, how about practicality?

1) My kids and I collected cans for 6 months. We crushed them to minimize space, and filled up my entire pickup truck with bags roped in. I spent as much in gas getting to the nearest recycling center as we got in payment. My kids (early elementary school age) both felt like we got robbed, and now have no desire to recycle cans. It wasn't worth it.
2) My truck is a 4-banger - decent gas milage (about 32-36 highway). This isn't a gas guzzler.
3) If I want the garbage company to issue me a recycling bin to prevent trips such as 1) above, I have to pay a monthly fee.
4) Observing what happens when neighbors who have paid said fee... the garbage men dump it in the same bin as the normal garbage, then squish it all together. It is entirely an illusion.
5) Can't have compost piles - it is against the HOA.
6) Why are recycled products so much more expensive then buying something "new". I am on a budget here, people - it might be nice if you don't have to worry about putting food on the table, but for the sole breadwinner of a family of four, we don't have that option.

It makes me sick that the so called environmentalists (*cough* Al Gore *cough*) waste so much electricity in their home, drive a big ol' SUV, then pay himself carbon credits (to his own tax deductable organization) to off set this. How exactly is this ethical?

Well thanks for your repplies people.

There is a lot to think about here, and think on it a bit I shall.

reply to post by Hastobemoretolife


You and I are starting to look like a tag team because we share many common views I can't say it any better than you did.

I'm anything but anti-environment. I think human beings foul everything they touch. Part of what disgusts me is the push for "green" things that aren't feasible. People will say [without knowing better] things like "you should go solar, everyone should go solar or use wind power, etc. etc." .... and I agree. However, it's still very inefficient, and not very cost-effective.

Look. Bottom line: When alternate energies can be employed by the common person and be assured they will at least break even, then people will RUSH to use these systems.

We have solar hot water, 400w of panels for water pressure and other applications here at home. We're preparing to get still more, to have 1750w of panels and supporting accoutrements........ but it will cost us several thousand, and will be a crap shoot whether it pays for itself or not. One thing is for certain is that it is fairly high maintenance. We are acquiring the extra because of my belief that we won't be able to afford conventional power much longer. Protecting it will then be the order of the day. We'll see.

The cap-and-trade........... that's a complete farce and will do nothing to actually curtail any pollution, IMO. It's merely another form of money/credits/influence that will be traded and bartered by the fat cats, and I'm ashamed of the U.S. legislators that have passed it. It will hit the pocketbooks of everyone paying for energy, at a time when the citizens can least afford it.

[edit on 6/7/09 by argentus]