Christian=Uneducated?

Well, I'm starting this thread because of a discussion that's happening in another topic www.abovetopsecret.com...
It started out as questioning if the US is a Christian nation. One poster, Ashley, is apparently under the impression that all Christians are uneducated. She's not alone, I've seen many people claim that Christians, or religious people in general are blind to anything, have no common sense, are ignorant, are stupid etc, etc.

Well here's my question: Is this true? I don't think so, but I wanted to start a topic to discuss it and see what other people have to say. I've copied and pasted my reply to her posts here to get things started.

From other post

Ashley, you like to point out minorities in my faith, don't you? Your mention of some radical group of militant Christians from Africa (a very violent continent) does nothing to shake my faith or prove that Christianity is bad or anything. Do you hate all Muslims? Is Islam a bad religion? Just because some militant Muslims decided to destroy the WTC?

Its true, religion is dying. The amount of time spent worshiping is considerably less than it used to be. Take 1000 years ago for instance, what i understand is that religion was a major force in these peoples lives. Take 500 years ago, even less. Take 50 years ago, still around and quite predominant but even less. Take now, sundays only and sometimes not even that.

Well... Perhaps people aren't going to Church as much anymore, but that doesn't prove that people aren't practicing their faith anymore. I hardly go to Church, but I'm very religious. You don't need to go to a building to be religious and practice your religion.

People are to busy nowadays and with that comes education. With education comes knowledge. With knowledge becomes enlightenment and with more enlightenment there is less need for religion. Im sorry but its that simple.

Why does being educated have to do with less need for religion? I'm very educated. I'm going into my third year of college, at quite a reputable school in my area (Assumption College, Worcester, MA), and I take my studies very seriously. I'm majoring in Political Science, and I plan to become a professor. I'm not sure why you think religious people can't be educated people. I'm very offended by that, and I'm sure many other people would be too.

Just because I believe in God does not make me ignorant or stupid. If you assume that I'm a fundie Christian who takes everything the Bible says to be truth, you're wrong. I believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ, but I don't believe that God literally created clay humans and breathed life into them. I choose to believe in something higher than myself, I'm not sure why that automatically makes me stupid, uneducated, and ignorant.

What is your blind self talking about morals and values for? Are cuss words christian?

Umm... I'm not blind to anything. Please, tell me what I'm blind to. I really want to know. Honestly, tell me. And I have no idea what you're talking about with the "are cuss words christian" bit.

Armaggedon may be coming, but only for you. Maybe that is what the lunatic on the corner means whwn he says the 'end is near'.
The end of religion. If that is the case,'bring it on' as another fantastic christian once said.

Who are you to say Armageddon isn't coming? A lot of people say the end of the world is going to come with the NWO, that's basically the same idea except the leader of the NWO I expect is the antichrist. Maybe the lunatic on the corner is talking about the Illuminati coming when he talks of a near end. I really don't see your point.

That reminds me. Is letting innocents be killed, invading other countries, being an alcoholic, lying, fathering disrespectful over-indulgent children, being greedy, being un-educated and a failure a modern christian? It sure doesnt look like the one you guys are always talking about.
Nevermind, maybe things are just getting more desperate on the way out. You"ll take anyone nowadays.

What are you talking about here? Are you stereotyping a modern Christian? If you are, you're doing a horribly bad job of it. If you're describing President Bush, which you might be, you're not really getting anywhere. He's not a real Christian by any means. He pretends to be so he can further his own agenda. He's not the epitome of a Christian at all.

And for the record, I don't like Bush. But I'm Christian. Wow... Go figure... A Christian with an open mind who goes against his president who is supposedly of the same faith... That's a first apparently, huh?

i wont say that all christian are educated, many christians are ignorant people. but alot of christian i know educate them self by studying current science, math, philosophy and ofcourse visiting ATS. but the most important thing is that many christian are generaly nice people. A REAL CHRISTIAN wont even put up a fight for self-defense (that rules me out...)

Simply look back in time at all the grerat minds, they believed. Most scientist, believe it or not believe in God. There is no distintion, I have a 152 i.q. and I believe. In all honestly I think it is ignorant not to be open to the lossability that there is no God.

Originally posted by Faisca
One poster, Ashley, is apparently under the impression that all Christians are uneducated. She's not alone, I've seen many people claim that Christians, or religious people in general are blind to anything, have no common sense, are ignorant, are stupid etc, etc.

Well here's my question: Is this true?

Yes.

According to statistics, of strongly religous people only 10% of men and 18% of women have IQs that exceed 140. The average IQ for strongly religous people is 100, while the average IQ for atheists was 119.

Here's a link to the site. kspark.kaist.ac.kr...&%20religion.htm

Bleys, I never trust statistics like that. Statistics don't cover the entire population of any group of people. I'm a very educated Christian, all the other Christians I know (well yeah, for the most part) are well educated. There is a minority of Christian fundamentalists who are closed minded and ignorant to anything other than their religion. But what I'm saying is that it's wrong to lump all Christians into a group of stupid, uneducated, ignorami. That's all.

Originally posted by Faisca
Bleys, I never trust statistics like that. Statistics don't cover the entire population of any group of people.

While I agree that statistics from an individual source should be viewed cautiously, the particular link I provided you with shows numerous different studies from a variety of accredited publications and universities. The fact that all of these independent studies are reflecting similar data is significant and cannot be simply dismissed. Give the site another look.

Yes.

According to statistics, of strongly religous people only 10% of men and 18% of women have IQs that exceed 140. The average IQ for strongly religous people is 100, while the average IQ for atheists was 119.

Nice Bleys, thats good to know.

Anyways faisca here is one of my problems with the religioso.

I know there is no god, Most smart people know there is no god and according to the stats above the average atheist is smarter. I am not going to enter the word strongly because it could be strongly atheist too.

If you were listening to me talk or had some other contact with someone and found what they had to say interesting that would be great. If that person had good ideas,seemed educated, all that stuff, but then told you he believes in fairys and talks to them on his knees every night, spends sundays with a bunch of other people worshipping fairys, and sometimes prays to the son of everyones favorite fairy wouldnt that person lose credibility and seem not so smart anymore. Thats where i am at, I dont hate christians i just dont think they are very smart.

Ashley believes that there is no god.
I believe there is.
Christians also believe there is, but their god is different to mine.

If Ashley is right then we have nothing to worry about when we die. Death is oblivion.

But if Ashley is wrong and there is a god, what happens next will depend on the god. If god is how I perceive him to be (ie part of a duality) then I get to go to the Summerlands. Ashley will also end up there too since my concept of god wouldn't judge him for his disbelief.

The problem happens if god is the god of the Christians.
Both Ashley and myself will end up stoking the furnaces.
I wonder who will get it worse - the atheist or the pagan ?

I got right off topic just then. All I will say is that I know many Christians and can't really say that they are much different to other religions. I know of stupid ones and highly intelligent ones. I don't think its fair to judge a whole religion by a few idiots, just as its not fair to say that all Christians are hypocrites purely because many of the ones I know are.



[Edited on 7-5-2004 by Pisky]

I would say it depends on their willingness to explore subjects that may conflict with their religion. I attended a Christian school from Kindergarten through High School. Our curriculum, while satisfactory in the basic subjects, was decidedly biased against teaching anything that might conflict with the school's religious doctrines.
I was the type of kid that questioned everything that didn't fit right, and the common response was along the lines of, "Well if you want to pass the test, you'd better give that answer." So yes, you could say that I was uneducated in things which viewed the world from an alternative perspective. Fortunately, I have an inborn drive to understand what doesn't make sense, and I tend to play the devil's advocate alot. These things led me to find my own answers, rather than just accept those that were given to me as truth. Most of the kids I went to school with either dove into the school's doctrines headfirst, or rebelled against it completely.

The rebels, I could hold conversations with, but the "good kids" grew up to be "good adults" and never really learned anything beyond what the curriculum taught. Consequently, they remained fairly uneducated about topics that required any objective or open-minded thought. Sadly, they were entirely too frustrating to talk to, so I rarely bothered.

I don't think they were any less intelligent than anyone else, but like many fundamentalists, they intentionally limited their education to those subjects that did not challenge their beliefs.

Overall, one of the most frustrating aspects of the fundamentalist mentality, has to be their frequent tendency to respond to a question without really thinking about their answer first.

Of course this doesn't apply to all fundamentalist Christians. My opinions are drawn from my personal experience with those in my former school and my mom's church.

Ashley you are an extremely ignorant person, I'm sorry. That's just the way it is. How can you make such a generalization? That's like me saying all puerto ricans are lazy, or all blacks are drug dealers. Friggin ridiculous. If it's your belief that every Christian is uneducated, you're the ignorant one and I feel sorry for you.

How do you know there isn't a God? Has God's existence been disproven? Nope. It hasn't. Don't even give me any malarky about "science disproves God, we know how things work now." Whoopdey do. Science doesn't disprove God at all. I'm one of those Christians who likes to explore knowledge outside my religion, I love it. I like science, I love philosophy, I love politics, I love knowledge, but I'm also religious. I open myself up to all possibilities; unlike some who close their minds.

Believing in a god, any god, does not make one ignorant. It makes them more open minded than people who would shut their mind to a god. And I feel sorry for those who don't believe in God (or Allah, Buddha, etc) because what do you have to look forward to? Nothingness? That's a happy outlook.

[Edited on 7-5-2004 by Faisca]

Well, I'm a Christian, Bachelor of Science in Computer Science, with a math minor. This includes CalculusI, II, & III. My last I.Q. test I scored a nice 138. I guess the bar has been raised if I'm ignorant.

If you look back in history, you'll see that the most educated people were usually monks, priest, ect. I don't believe that transcribing from Latin into English qualifies you as stupid.

People! Think before you make these comments. Ugh!

Are some christians uneducated? Yes, just as some jews are rich, some white people are prejudice and some black people are hoodlums. No one grouping of people have all individuals without fault or difference of some sort.

Sure I go off on religion a lot, but I really don't have a problem with whatever it is that people choose to believe as it is their life to live as they see fit. What I do have a problem with is close minded people that believe they their beliefs are 100% the only correct ones and everyone else are just morons or evil. No one knows the absolute truth 100% or we would all know it as it would become self-evident.

The one thing that I know is that I do not know everything and that is the best place to start.

Originally posted by dbates
Well, I'm a Christian... My last I.Q. test I scored a nice 138...If you look back in history, you'll see that the most educated people were usually monks, priest, ect. I don't believe that transcribing from Latin into English qualifies you as stupid.

Aah, but lets not forget that the only educated people during that time were the clergy. Your average peasant received no education and the average nobleman received his education from the clergy itself.

Also if you read the results of the study, it does show that 10% of eminent scientists do believe in a higher being. My response to the author's question was not meant to be an indictment of any religious belief or to catagorize any religion as being made up of totally stupid people. It was simply to show that, in general, the higher your IQ or the more educated your are, the less likely you are to believe in God.

Originally posted by Jonna
What I do have a problem with is close minded people that believe they their beliefs are 100% the only correct ones

But we only believe that because it's true.

I cannot speak for all Christians, as I cannot speak for all of anything, but I can speak for myself.

I am a Christian. I do not know what my IQ is because I've never bothered to go and take an exam. Seems a bit unnecessary to me as I stand on my deeds and accomplishments.

All totalled, I have about 6 years of formal college, but not the first darned degree. You'd think I'd get one as the company I presently work for awards employees $10k for a bachelors degree, and I'm three classes from having one of the degrees I pursued. That in itself might classify me as ignorant, I suppose.

In reference to the discussion which sparked the debate (The U.S. being a Christian nation), I have studied that department on my own for well over a decade. I started down that path because I saw many contradictions with the present system and the constution and wanted to know why. I now know why a lot of the things that go on do, and it boils down to ignorance on the part of the citizen.

Ashley shows her ignorance of the truth by what she says, but one can hardly blame her as she is obviously anti-Christian, and so is the system that controls not only the education system but also the justice system. She is speaking in accordance with her feelings, which are reinforced by an Agenda that wants to recreate the United States and claim it, as well as the rest of the world, as its own. Ashley has been taught a perverted notion of history, and believes what even senior congressmen and many supreme court justices insinuate, and that the 1st Amendment means freedom from God. One can hardly blame her.

How about the Christians, though? They have an important stake in this nation, yet they, by and large, obey those who tell them to shut and stay out of the government because the constitution tell them so. To me, that seems pretty ignorant, too. Just as ignorant as Ashley, maybe even worse as they are not doing what the Founding Fathers did expect Christians to do, and that is to insure this is a Christian nation and to do their duty and elect Christian leaders.

Now, if I were to decide what type of nation this is supposed to be, would I listen to the likes of Clinton, Kennedy and Ginsburg, or would I listen to the likes of Washington, Madison and Jay? Because I am not ignorant, but am well read and continue to purue knowledge, I know which group is right and which is a bunch of revisionists with an agenda. Where, however, are the other Christians in this nation?

One can be right but for the wrong reason. The typical Christian knows that they are being persecuted in a very small way in this nation. They know that the government says that God plays no part in this nation, they know that everybody from comics to TV characters make fun of and ridicule Christianity at every given chance, and they know the world is against them. But, do they know that this nation is supposed to be a Christian nation and can they prove it? Or, do they just say to each other at Sunday School that the nation is going to Hell in a handbasket and there is nothing that they can do about it? Fact of the matter is, this nation has become what it has become because the Christian population became ignorant of the truth and allowed those who cannot build a nation themselves but must steal other nations to take theirs. They sat back and allowed what was supposed to be their inheritance, an inheritance that they were to pass on to their children, to be stolen. To me, that is pretty stupid, and it is due to ignorance.

Well said, Thomas. Thanks for that =) You're obviously well educated if you choose to study so much about these subjects, and it just goes to show that we're not all ignorant stupid people.

I won't deny that some Christians are fundamentalist and believe that their way is the only way, etc, etc. But they do not speak for the entire Christian population, just as cheap Jews do not speak for their entire population, and lazy Puerto Ricans don't speak for their entire population. Do we see the trend? Creating stereotypes is a very ignorant thing to do, and that's just what Ashley is doing when she categorizes all Christians into one mold. I'm sorry but that's just the way it is.

Religion doesn't have to correlate with education at all does it?

Christian should NOT mean uneducated. But it CAN mean indoctrinated and programmed, and unable to form one's own principles. It is very much an individual thing - to what extent one's belief or faith overrides the ability to critically analyze and think.

A good friend of mine is a former (liberal) Islamic leader who has an extraordinary academic background (topped final stage USMLE when he sat it some time back and is a pioneer in his field). He attended the institution in the Middle East that turned out many of the regressive Islamic fundamentalist leaders of today. They studied religion for their career because they were not bright enough to do medicine, science or engineering. Odd but true.

According to statistics, maybe. I'm a Catholic, have been all my life. My IQ is 135ish. ???

I don't think it is true. IQ's aren't usually associated with general being a good human type thing, but more on 'facts' of life, etc. So I think that can be invalid. Again, I don't think it is true. People make mistakes, some people are stupid by nature. ANYONE can enter a religion, so I think it is unfair to judge that. I could be a straight-out redneck idiot (no offense to those who are) and become Christian. Does it make you a bad person? No. I think it is more important that you are a better person than what high your IQ is. After all, who cares how smart you are when you can make people feel good and better inside. I think that is way more important that being able to answer complicated algebra problems

-wD

Well... So far there have been lots of well educated Christians posting on this thread, so that shows me something =) Just because someone believes in God, or believes in things that may be unbelievable to others doesn't mean they're stupid. It means they have an open mind (I know it goes the other way, some Christians don't have an open mind, but that still doesn't mean that they're uneducated, just close minded). That's basically the bottom line, methinks.

After all, who cares how smart you are when you can make people feel good and better inside. I think that is way more important that being able to answer complicated algebra problems

Very well said, Webdevil!

If you were listening to me talk or had some other contact with someone and found what they had to say interesting that would be great. If that person had good ideas,seemed educated, all that stuff, but then told you he believes in fairys and talks to them on his knees every night, spends sundays with a bunch of other people worshipping fairys, and sometimes prays to the son of everyones favorite fairy wouldnt that person lose credibility and seem not so smart anymore. Thats where i am at, I dont hate christians i just dont think they are very smart.

If you will notice above I never said the word un-educated. You people are almost proving my point for me.
People can get all sorts of education and still not be smart.

Now if you will look above again you might notice that what I said was" a person that believes in fairys loses credibility and seems not so smart anymore".

True story.