Guru Dialogues III (Ego, Schizophrenia, Enlightenment)

Seeker – I’ve been thinking about something, and I wanted to get your reaction.

Guru – I hope it’s not a reaction you want.

S – You know what I mean.

G – Go ahead.

S – Ok…a bit of family history first. My aunt has schizophrenia. She was diagnosed at the typical age—her mid 20s—and has been on medication all her life. She is now in her 60s and lives what, on the outside, seems to be a very limited existence. My father, her brother, exhibited some symptoms of what would usually be defined as schizophrenia, but he was able to live a fairly normal life without medication. I know, however, that his internal world was very elaborate. He developed a spiritual cosmology and wrote books about it, some of which were quite successful. It was always his belief that he was channelling the material in the books, and that he himself was contributing little other than a willingness to be open to the message. From the outside though, and in talking with him, he came across as overwhelmingly sane. My mother has told me however, that he went through a very bizarre period in which he seemed to almost lose control of his mind, his perceptions, his thinking. At that time he was in his mid 30s. He lost interest in socializing and seemed to want to spend every free moment alone in the basement, where he conducted spiritual investigations of different kinds. Basically, she was freaked out. Anyway, needless to say that I have had a deep interest in schizophrenia for much of my life given what I was exposed to. More recently I have developed an interest in spirituality. The timeline of this roughly mirrors my father’s own “spiritual awakening.” I am now in my mid 30s. My question to you is this: is there a link between schizophrenia and spirituality, or the tendency to become fascinated by spiritual subjects.

G – The short answer is yes. Everything is connected, but some things lie closer together on the infinite mesh of interconnectedness than others. This is the case with schizophrenia and what is called enlightenment. They are two manifestations of the same phenomenon. In both cases the mind has come to the end of conventional thought. There are two possible reactions to this. The first is to let go of the mind and the ego. The other is to try to maintain the mind and ego in the face of the infinite, which is dangerous.

S - Can you explain what you mean by “to the end of conventional thought”?

G – Thought is limited. What the mind can know is limited. What can be known is infinite. When something limited comes up against something infinite, it reveals itself as being infinitely small. Some people, for whatever reason, have an experience of this infinity, this nothingness out of which all manifestation springs. When that happens, their consciousness undergoes a revolution. This is what happened to Jesus, to the Buddha, and to a great many more people who we have never heard of. This is also what happens to what we call schizophrenics, although their consciousnesses are prevented from undergoing the same revolution due mainly to fear. They are afraid—and this is not a judgement of them—of letting go of their egos, of their thoughts, and of falling back into that infinite nothingness that they have become aware of. Of course, it is impossible to try to figure out infinity, and to carry the ego into infinity.

S – You're saying they are refusing to let themselves “go crazy” and in so doing actually go crazy.

G – Crazy is a particularly meaningless word, but for lack of a better one, yes. This analogy might help. Imagine you have been born and raised in an empty reservoir. In this reservoir, where you have spent all your life, you have gradually filled up a large bag with pebbles. You have loved finding and examining every one of these pebbles. They are your treasures, and you have put each one of them in your bag for safekeeping. Over time you have come to associate completely with this collection of pebbles. This bag of little stones has become your identity. It is all that you know of yourself. Then one day, when your bag has filled up and become rather heavy, water begins to fill up the reservoir. First it is an inch high, then two, then three. Gradually the water level rises. You are of course alarmed. You have never seen this liquid substance before, and now it is inundating you. You clutch your bag to protect it from the rising torrent of water. Soon the water has reached your neck, and you have become very frightened. Now something inside you, some infinitely distant inner voice, tells you that you must let go of your bag of stones in order to swim and not drown. What, let go of your stones! What does that even mean? You are your stones. If you let go of them you will be nothing. It’s almost better to drown than let that happen. Now here we have come to the deciding moment. You can put down the bag of stones and swim, or you can hold onto it and flounder. The bag is your identity, your thoughts, everything that you believe makes you who you are. The bag is your separateness. You cannot keep it, yet many try to.

S – I think I see.

G – If you try to maintain your ego—which is all about division, creating objects out of the word for the subject that you are to interact with—then you are going to be overcome with fear. It will seem like infinity itself is lining up in opposition to you. Everyone will seem to be out to get you. Everything will seem to relate to you. Fear is the result of this.

S – So what happens if you let go of the bag? You become Jesus I suppose.

G – No, you become what you are in essence, which is what Jesus was in essence—pure love. You are that which has always been aware of your thoughts, of your ego. You become the swimmer instead of the bag of stones.

S – What happens then?

G – The thoughts will still come, and some of them will be very strange indeed, and will seem absolutely correct. You may want to cling onto them. If you simply let them arise and do not grasp them, they will go back to where they came from. Now you will begin to see what is, you will apprehend reality in all its glory. I assure you, when you see reality, thoughts will become laughably small in your awareness.

S – Ah….thanks.

G- You are, as always, very welcome.







[edit on 14-5-2009 by Silenceisall]

It is straight up bizarre that you posted this.... just a few moments ago I was *mentally arranging* something to post on the *mental illness connection to spirituality* topic. Weird.....
Anyway...
Let's not forget that the people that would/could be modern day prophets are considered by our society to be mentally ill. I often wonder how many of the 'messages' they receive may actually be of substance and not of what the medical profession likes to call a 'brain dysfunction'

reply to post by jackieps1975


Hi,

Information like this tends to occur to many people at the same time, it is no more mine than it is yours...just is. The shamen of the world have long known that "madness" is a sign of a great gift, it just needs to be understood for what it is. Unfortunately, the pharmaceutical companies have too much of a stake in keeping the "insane" on meds. The truth is getting out though...

Truly bizarre, I too, just yesterday was discussing schizophrenia and its possible connection to enlightenment. Funny how it seems recently on the minds of many.

reply to post by searching4truth


yes, imagine what would happen if all those who are called schizophrenic, or mad, or whatever, were to make the shift away from the mind and realize the deeper truth. That the subject of my OP has occured to so many tells me that the time has come for a total revolution in the way we see and treat the mentally ill, and end to the glorification of the "normal consciousness," which is no more sane.



[edit on 14-5-2009 by Silenceisall]

reply to post by Silenceisall


Very nice! May I ask what the source is?

The concept of schizophrenia has fascinated me a lot lately & I've discussed it at length with a good friend of mine who is studying psychology.

Schizophrenia to me, basically means an altered perception of reality which is generally frowned upon in our society.
In some severe cases it prevents people from functioning normally within our society and usually our solution to this is to pump people full of drugs, which to me is, at the very best sedating people into oblivion & thereby "suppressing the symptoms" - and pretty much everything else too.


I was reminded of this clip with Terrence McKenna on schizophrenia:

[edit on 14-5-2009 by MrVertigo]

reply to post by MrVertigo


Hi, the source is me, whatever "me" is. McKenna is definately worth reading on this subject. Check out his book, The Archaic Revival. Facinating, although still very much rooted in thought.

Sounds very authentic. But i think you are not a Yogi, so how do you know that you are not decepted by your own brain in order to think that your experiences are some kind of enlightenment? Do you have some more experiences you can share?

peace

reply to post by Wachstum


Hi I'm certainly not a yogi. I don't like to use the word enlightenment either. I have had odd experiences, but I don't think they are important ( I was once obsessed by them). As for my mind playing tricks...yes my mind is playing tricks all the time, but I generally succeed in letting it have its say and then allowing it to go on its way. I don;t cling to my thoughts like I once did. The OP is just an effort to verbalize something that I have realized very clearly, but obviously cannot prove. The info is either useful to you or not.

[edit on 14-5-2009 by Silenceisall]

reply to post by Silenceisall


Exactly my thoughts. Who is to say the greed, lust, abusive individuals, those consumed with materializism are "sane", especially if we look at the messages of prophets and such, who all proclaimed peace and simple living. We are not a peaceful species, by the majority. Perhaps it is the majority that is insane.

So what happens if they don't let go of the bag of stones? They become what we call "schizophrenic" or it's the other way round and they become schizophrenic once they've let go of the bag and their ego?

reply to post by Nventual


Letting to is the answer. Once the filter through which the world is seen falls away (that filter is your conception of yourself), you are free to see the world as it is. Holding onto ego in the face of the infinite is, I am sure, the reason for schizophrenia. What awaits you when you let go is complete and natural sanity. What we call sanity today has nothing in common with it.

I'm not saying the strange thoughts will not still come, you will just see them for the dust and wind that they are.



[edit on 15-5-2009 by Silenceisall]

You can let go of the bag of rocks, but because they have been with you all your life, even though the presence of them is gone, they are still a part of you, deep in your subconscious.

I lost my marbles about a year ago (pun intended) but I still see and feel them from time to time. How do you really wash it all away?

If I'm in a reservoir (on the inside of a container) I'll just make my Self infinitely smaller, create an island out of the pebbles and use the liquid for water so I'll have an ocean. No need to drown or give up my soul, problem solved.

reply to post by Silenceisall


I enjoyed your post. I have been trying to explain Schizophrenia to people for years.

"This is also what happens to what we call schizophrenics, although their consciousnesses are prevented from undergoing the same revolution due mainly to fear. They are afraid—and this is not a judgement of them—of letting go of their egos, of their thoughts, and of falling back into that infinite nothingness that they have become aware of."

And paradoxically this fear they have may be what is stopping them from confronting the cure for that fear.

www.youtube.com...

Schizophrenia is Fear.
It is written in the Upanishads that as soon as an Other is noticed there is Fear. The Ego is Fear. It is not Love. The difference between the SZ and the ordinary person is there is more fear. Fear is contraction or separation of consciousness from itself. This Fear or Ego is not a thing or event that occurred in the past but an action that is occurring in the present moment.

The SZ has ended up in a lower level of consciousness probably from some biochemical disorder of the brain. The SZ does not know how to get back to the ordinary state. Yet it is simply a matter of Understanding that you are creating this fear and separation yourself.

"Fear is when Love stops short of Infinity".-Adi Da.

As I see it there are levels of consciousness. Starting at the lowest level you have:
Psychosis
Schizophrenia (SZ)
Ordinary Consciousness
Spiritual Consciousness,the First or Beginning Level,called by many
names ,in Christianity:Being Born Again.
Yogic Consciousness: Associated with the 5th,throat Chakra
Enlightenment:Associated with 6th & 7th Chakra and the Heart of Reality (Shiva-Shakti)

Now the Guru is another story. He has become one with Infinity and Knows it.

This comes at an interesting time for me. Since my spiritual awakening a bit over a year ago, many strange things have taken place, I'm sure most here can relate.

Recently, however, I find myself clutching my bag of stones as the water rises .. my fear of letting go is only because I have to stay 'sane' in order to survive in society.

I sometimes imagine and meditate on letting go of the bag, and it is wonderful, but ending up in the loony bin is where that will get you.

Tough conundrum, really. Great post, too!

edit to add that I feel like I am attempting to live in two different worlds at the same time.

[edit on 18-5-2009 by blujay]

I don't trust anyone who calls themself a guru.

To claim enlightenment and then have the hypocrisy to claim that we are all the same and that only the weak minded creat division is what troubles me.

For the so called 'enlightened being' has already created division between the enlightened and the former.

I don't trust anyone who claims to be enlightened, because just who decided who or what enlightenment really is? On what scale can we truly measure or consciousness, or subconsciousness and our ego?

If one man sitting around offering free advice is more enlightened than the man who risks his life on a daily basis rescuing children from burning homes, then i'm afraid i just don't buy it.

To claim that we are all the same, removes individuality and creates a kind of 'void', and that is exactly what is happening to western society.
We are becoming drones, because we are applying eastern philosophy to a western culture and as such the results are unpredictable.

In regards to schizophrenia, for a so called Guru to say that 'all schizophrenics' just need to stop fearing their own madness and accept, is very easy for them to say, but believe me, schizophrenia is seriously bewildering (not just for the sufferer) but for those who surround the sufferer (friends and family)....

If a certain type of medicine can help someone who suffers from schizophrenia overcome their living nightmare then surely that is not a bad thing?

Great thread though and some interesting angles here.

Originally posted by wclv13
You can let go of the bag of rocks, but because they have been with you all your life, even though the presence of them is gone, they are still a part of you, deep in your subconscious.

I lost my marbles about a year ago (pun intended) but I still see and feel them from time to time. How do you really wash it all away?

Hi...it happnes on its own through direct realization. The more clearly you see the infinitely small nature of your thoughts--no matter how strange and compelling--the easier it is to let them just be and then be on their way. Do not seek to get rid of thought, do not position yourself against thought, try to suppress it, squash it, etc. Thought is a natural aspect of this experience we are all having, but clinging to it and making sandcastles out of that thought is not. Thought is not your enemy. Instead, realize the unreality of your thoughts and relax. Let the rest take care of itself. It will.

Originally posted by Dragonfly79
If I'm in a reservoir (on the inside of a container) I'll just make my Self infinitely smaller, create an island out of the pebbles and use the liquid for water so I'll have an ocean. No need to drown or give up my soul, problem solved.

Very good point. Metaphores and analogy are just more thought. I hand you that. Mine makes no more sense than yours as a thought. You cannot plan your escappe from fear, or thought, or anything unpleasant. There is no process that can liberate you. Direct realization in the present is all we have.

Thanks for your post.

Originally posted by RRokkyy
reply to post by Silenceisall

 

I enjoyed your post. I have been trying to explain Schizophrenia to people for years.

"This is also what happens to what we call schizophrenics, although their consciousnesses are prevented from undergoing the same revolution due mainly to fear. They are afraid—and this is not a judgement of them—of letting go of their egos, of their thoughts, and of falling back into that infinite nothingness that they have become aware of."

And paradoxically this fear they have may be what is stopping them from confronting the cure for that fear.

www.youtube.com...

Schizophrenia is Fear.
It is written in the Upanishads that as soon as an Other is noticed there is Fear. The Ego is Fear. It is not Love. The difference between the SZ and the ordinary person is there is more fear. Fear is contraction or separation of consciousness from itself. This Fear or Ego is not a thing or event that occurred in the past but an action that is occurring in the present moment.

The SZ has ended up in a lower level of consciousness probably from some biochemical disorder of the brain. The SZ does not know how to get back to the ordinary state. Yet it is simply a matter of Understanding that you are creating this fear and separation yourself.

"Fear is when Love stops short of Infinity".-Adi Da.

As I see it there are levels of consciousness. Starting at the lowest level you have:
Psychosis
Schizophrenia (SZ)
Ordinary Consciousness
Spiritual Consciousness,the First or Beginning Level,called by many
names ,in Christianity:Being Born Again.
Yogic Consciousness: Associated with the 5th,throat Chakra
Enlightenment:Associated with 6th & 7th Chakra and the Heart of Reality (Shiva-Shakti)

Now the Guru is another story. He has become one with Infinity and Knows it.

Hi...Yes, altough the idea/concept of the levels of awareness that you write about can become a block to realization.

We think. "I am at level two because I have these spiritual characterists...if I can just replace these less evolved spiritual characterists with others that are more evolved, I will move up a level, or even skip right to the top level...Okay, so how do I get rid of these characteristics...what do I have to do, oh, why is is so hard to get rid of these characteristics?....Maybe I need a new guru, another spiritual book, or maybe I should go on ATS and read some guy's spiritual musings...etc, etc"

You see how any structure through which you must move, or which categorizes you, invokes the through-based mind, and sets up internal opositions which are inherantly self-blocking? Instead, the realization, that you are fully complete here and now, with nothing to do but realize that, brings you back to what is is you seek. You find, ironically, by not seeking, but seeing what is...






[edit on 19-5-2009 by Silenceisall]