Barak Obama discloses Bush 'torture' methods including use of insects

Originally posted by RKWWWW
You were a POW in 1992?

Yep, hard to believe, huh ?

I see that you did not expect that someone on this forum experienced atrocities of war, genocide and torture ?

Originally posted by RKWWWW
The interrogation tactics as described in the release did not cause permanent, lasting damage yet you compare it to your own permanent damage. Had you been water-boarded or scared by a caterpiller in a box you wouldn't have permanent damage.

How much really does it take to break someone psychologically and physically according to you ?

You think that presence of medical personal made it all "safe" and "legal" ?

Last time I checked, we are all different, like snow flakes, some break much easier then others...

Yep, I was water boarded, beaten up at least few times a week, interrogated at least twice a week, my had was banged against the wall, I was doing hard labor work building the front line for them in the path of the bullets from the other side, walking through the mine fields for them, getting their wounded and dead from the battlefield, and being fed only few times a week and getting some water once a day.

Beaten up some more and water boarded some more. Shooting through the thin aluminum walls with AK 47's almost every night while we were sleeping with few of us getting killed every time.

I really, really know how it feels, do you ???

Of course, you can always choose to believe papers "cooked" by our government, but remember one thing, those very documents are only what they want you to know, there are many, many other things nobody will EVER know, ALL the governments of the world sweep these unfortunate events under the carpet, hoping no one will ever find out ...

Uh, I almost forgot something...

In the midst of all this, nobody ever asks where are those who REFUSED to execute these "fine" orders given by our glorious government.

I find it hard to believe that our soldiers were all like lemmings when it comes to torture, it must be quite a few of them somewhere in the brig or even out , those who seen the light and decided to respect Geneva conventions

Wow I am so politically incorrect on this one..I do not care if we torture terrorists,although I would prefer to kill them.

reply to post by 5thElement

Thank you for your sacrifices, 5th Element. I'm sorry for what you went through. I can unfortunately relate to some of it--the water torture and beatings of the head against a hard object and being interrogated. Brings back fond memories of my childhood between the approximate ages of 4-8 or 9. (My mom was a bit daft at various times in her life as a result of being tortured by American soldiers occupying her country--as post-war victors and witnessing the same on other refugee women and in one case a child). Yeah, our wonderful American soldiers. Despite that, probably due to her extremely high IQ, she was able to see the good in my father and marry him despite him being a US soldier--by then he was a peacetime guest in her country and she'd gotten used to them and finding out they are human too and not all evil monsters from another world. So, I bear no hate toward soldiers in any general way and I understand these things come about as a result of de-humanizing "the enemy" in one's mind and justifying implementing horrific acts on them.

People who say torture ought to be a part of war need to shut their mouths and open their eyes and ears. Torture IS always a part of war but it usually falls on the weak and innocent in the countries that lost, even if they were initially the aggressors. It's the powers that be that start the crap and the weak and innocent who pay the highest price. And as in my case, sometimes generations after also pay a very steep price.

I can not condone denying anyone their humanity. Torture cheapens and degrades the perpetrator as well as the victim. And frankly, I don't see how it is very effective in gleaning information. Especially waterboarding. What the hell of value can you say when you're gagging and choking and thinking you're about to take your last waterlogged breath? You'll make crap up to get it to stop. And it sounds kind of like "gasp, burble glorgh...yes that's what I said...blrugh orgh orp". Ahhh...memories...light the corners of my mind...lalalala.

humanity?Have you seen there videos of chopping off the heads of Americans? or how about there laws concerning women and children?Raping children and publicly beating and stoning women.Why don't you people take up their cause instead of defending terrorists?

Here's why this issue is so important.

Amendment V No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

It's clear that the 5th amendment is written to protect the innocent from unjust punishment. The only way to do that is a legitimate court system and these prisoners did not have access to one.

The path the government took could quickly become a slippery slope. Obama is right to release the memos as a way to expose and denounce the previous administration's actions.

Originally posted by debz325
humanity?Have you seen there videos of chopping off the heads of Americans? or how about there laws concerning women and children?Raping children and publicly beating and stoning women.Why don't you people take up their cause instead of defending terrorists?

Defending terrorists ? Is that all you got ?

How about PROSECUTING them for their alleged crimes ???

They don't even know who the hell half of those people in Guantanamo are...

I came to this country convinced by all our officials in Geneva that USA is the place where LAW and FREEDOM take place.

No, I'm defending that little bit of what's left of that thing ya all were so proud to call an American dream. Looks like dream is no more...

I seen atrocities LIVE in TEHNICOLOR, entire villages with old folks, women, children and animals ALL killed in the name of political ideas and religious fear mongering.

I seen much more then I should. More than a dozen members of my family lost their lives in civil war with more then 1.2 million people dead...

Few members of my family and a some good friends I identified myself in massive graves as a member of military police.

And yet I was able to forgive, even though it was difficult I was able to escape HATE.

Same laws in middle eastern countries you so despise are the ones you would have here too if it's up to all those religious nuts who would like to have Cristian or any other theocracy here in US, but the separation of church and state stands in their way

Originally posted by jerico65
Last I checked, AQ and Sunni extremists don't have any rights at all under the US Constitution and habeas corpus, since they aren't US citizens.

Yet they were being held at a US base and are still considered 'men' under the part that reads 'all men are born equal'.

Are you stating that non-US citizens are not 'men' who should be treated 'equal'?

Originally posted by Divinorumus
War with NICE RULES is insane. Torture SHOULD be part of WAR! War should not be pretty. War should be as UGLY and as HORRIBLE as possible. If this were the case, maybe there would be fewer wars and far few people willing to fight them wars when their LEEEEEEEADERS declare them. I don't have any problem with torturing some ass that was hell bent on killing me. Heck, anyone that has any desire to kill me best be warned that if I capture them alive, I will make them regret the day they were born. The possibility of torture should be a deterrent when deciding to war. If there are creeps out there that want to KILL US, I say torture them repeatedly until they change their mind and ways!!!! Worrying about torturing those that want to KILL us is crazy.

NO NO NO! Two wrongs don't make right! Didn't your mother teach you anything? War is and always is as ugly as possible, it's WAR. It shouldn't even exist in the first place, it only does because of man's own self serving interests and ignorance towards fellow man.

Originally posted by rogue1
Same old crap if they do so can we. Just don't preach anymore BS about America having the high moral ground, you don't. Then again America has been torturing prisoners for decades, WWII, Korea, Vietnam and all those nasty little wars which are kept hidden and forgotten.

Really? We always torture POWs, huh? I guess it was US troops that organized the Bataan Death March as some sort of "fun-run"?

North Korean troops tortured and executed UN POWs. Any comments about that?

The VC tortured and executed US Troops captured. How about a comment or two? (And yes, I know that US troops didn't take too many prisoners, either. After finding their troops mutilated and dead, they decided not to).

Doesn't make any torture that's done right, but it's really funny how people whine about the US torturing, yet when our troops are having that done to them, no one raises their voice at all.

Originally posted by tezzajw

Originally posted by jerico65
Last I checked, AQ and Sunni extremists don't have any rights at all under the US Constitution and habeas corpus, since they aren't US citizens.

Yet they were being held at a US base and are still considered 'men' under the part that reads 'all men are born equal'.

Are you stating that non-US citizens are not 'men' who should be treated 'equal'?

So you're saying that anyone we capture should be put in a US established prison in the US, given a lawyer and tried in a US court of law? Given every single right that a US citizen would be given?

As I've said before, US troops captured by AQ sure don't get those rights and no one is complaining about that. You're stating that they are not "men" who should be treated "equal"?

reply to post by debz325

I hate the bastards who do that sort of thing and I am not against the death penalty being applied. However that's not the same thing as torturing people held in captivity without any sort of credible process to determine guilt or innocence or even without any specific charges. Rounding up people who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and just assuming they must be guilty of something so it's okay to torture them--that is not something I thought most members of ATS would support. I thought this site was about fighting against that because we know full well one of these days we could be the ones rounded up and labeled potential terrorists according to whatever Homeland Security fanatics deem to fit that definition.

reply to post by jerico65

You better believe we complain about our US troops being tortured, maimed, murdered. Wrong is wrong. Evil is evil. Denounce and fight it where you find it. However this particular topic is about unconvering our own evil and wrong. Have you ever read what happens to the minds and souls (not in the religious sense of the word--I mean the depth of being) of the men who have admitted to taking part in torturing at Gitmo? The experience degraded them. They are my fellow citizens whom I care about and I don't want any more of our doctors and soldiers being used as tools of evil. They are the ones who pay the price, not the ones like say, Cheney, who dreamed this crap up to begin with.

Originally posted by debz325
humanity?Have you seen there videos of chopping off the heads of Americans? or how about there laws concerning women and children?Raping children and publicly beating and stoning women.Why don't you people take up their cause instead of defending terrorists?

If the religious right had their way in the US, the same punishments would be handed out to homosexuals, atheists and adulterers. That is all beside the point anyway...

... you are either as bad as them or above them. You are choosing to stoop to their level, and in doing so losing everything you are fighting for: freedom, human rights and equality for all. By torturing these people you are effectively giving anyone the green light to abduct and torture innocent US citizens - because that's exactly who the majority were who ended up in GITMO, innocent people who had nothing to do with 'terrorism' whatsoever.

Getting tortured by insects? LMAO! That sounds like fun to me...sort of like going on that show where people have to put their heads into a container with roaches or something. Seems like an adrenalin rush...hahaha. I wouldn't mind getting tortured by a certain insect.

Originally posted by rogue1
Ever been waterboarded ? Didn't think so. Therefore you opinion has no relevenance and is quite ridiculous.

Have you?

How is sawing someones head off torture, they are dead in a few seconds ? Just another form of execution. no different from American soldiers gut shooting people in Iraq

I would imagine that they don't worry about keeping those saw blades sharp enough to behead someone in seconds. I would also imagine that they aren't using electric saws. So this "few seconds" is likely an excruciatingly long painful time to those who have been killed this way. Execution is quick and supposedly relatively painless, someone sawing through your neck is not quick nor would it be painless.

Well, here's something that may change a few peoples mind about how to deal with evil. Suppose some creep kidnapped one of your children and held them for ransom and you happened to know who did it and captured them and they admitted what they did yet stuck to their guns saying you better pay the ransom and let them go or else. Now, would you try to scrounge up that million dollars they are demanding and let them go .. or .. would you try to persuade (:lol them to tell you where your child is being held?

It's pretty easy to talk the hypothetical talk until you are directly involved, huh?

BTW, I don't see waterboarding as all that bad a thing to use on evil. I mean, I've seen someone choke on a chicken bone and pass out before. After they were revived and coughed up the bone they seemed perfectly fine, no need for psychological counseling for their trauma seemed necessary.

And, isn't torture optional? I mean, CONFESS .. or ELSE .. if that's the way you want to play the game. Right?

Sorry, but I have zero tolerance for evil and I don't even consider evil humons even humon. Do whatever you want with evil, I couldn't care any less. Evil should have no rights what-so-ever.

Originally posted by debz325
humanity?Have you seen there videos of chopping off the heads of Americans? or how about there laws concerning women and children?Raping children and publicly beating and stoning women.Why don't you people take up their cause instead of defending terrorists?

My mother always said two wrongs don't make a right. While it might sound trite, real truths are always simple in nature.

I believe that we must always do the right thing, even at a cost. America was built on ideals and to resort to lowering ourselves to terrorists levels, we sully those ideals of our nation.


[edit on 18-4-2009 by Jadette]

My mother always said two wrongs don't make a right. While it might sound trite, real truths are always simple in nature.

I believe that we must always do the right thing, even at a cost. America was built on ideals and to resort to lowering ourselves to terrorists levels, we sully those ideals of our nation.


[edit on 18-4-2009 by Jadette]

Actually The United States of America was built on rediculous violence and unconventional warfare.

We would have seen Britains Got Talent "LIVE" on FOX the other night if we had fought our revolution the way we are FORCED to fight the multiple wars we are fighting now.

STEP BACK, SHUT UP AND LET THEM DO THEIR JOBS.

News flash...Coalition forces are not fighting regular army on he front lines. The animals are killing their own nieghbors, taking hostages and torturing anyone they can get their hands on.

In this case being right while doing something wrong means the world...(I dont think that makes any sense...:puz

reply to post by BingeBob


All births are bloody and painful.

But to say that our nation was not built on ideals is a lie.

As for the mindset that the ends justifies the means, well, I find that contemptible.

Are we supposed to toss honor and dignity and righteousness out the window whenever the going gets tough? No, we rise to the occasion. We do the RIGHT thing for the RIGHT reasons, not because it's easy, but because it's THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

All evil is relative - to the victim.

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