Why does our creator want us to hate each other?

Why would we? Couldn't there be no meaning at all? Couldn't we just *be*?

It's within the realm of possibility, as is the idea I was talking about. It's up to us which we choose to believe. That is the lovely thing about reality we get to make up our own minds and choose what we want to believe in.

Originally posted by spellbound
reply to post by Welfhard

 

When you know something deep in your bones/gut/being, you don't question it.

But is that a good enough reason? It's not going to convince anyone else.

What can I say - have you ever had this total conviction that something is true?

Yep. And now look at me, I'm atheist because I considered the possibility that I was wrong about something and if I'm wrong about something, I could be wrong about everything - including my gut.

Other people who "knew deep down" have been wrong before, which is why they say there are no absolute truths in life.

[edit on 14-4-2009 by Welfhard]

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

Why would we? Couldn't there be no meaning at all? Couldn't we just *be*?

It's within the realm of possibility, as is the idea I was talking about. It's up to us which we choose to believe. That is the lovely thing about reality we get to make up our own minds and choose what we want to believe in.

Yes we have that privilege, but I think that having an objective perspective is more important than a subjective perspective, but hey those are just my value.

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows


I wish we could just be.

But there are too many people who do not let others just be - even exist.

This is my problem with the world. Everyone would be grateful to just be, but then someone comes along and kills them, or starves them, or abuses them.

People will not let other people 'just be' - and if you are one of the lucky ones, then thank the Gamemaster for a lucky break. It won't last, of course.

reply to post by spellbound


I love the fact that the all encompassing being of your universe is being called the "Gamemaster", a Dungeons and Dragons reference. It's very 'comic book-y'

reply to post by Welfhard


Sorry, that makes you an agnostic, hedging your bets.

But maybe that's a good idea.

Or, perhaps I am wrong.

reply to post by Welfhard


Guess what? I am tired of talking about God and Jesus and the devil, so I have translated all of these concepts into games, which more people are familar with - maybe that way, it will get through to more peiople.

reply to post by Welfhard


I would appreciate it if you not attempt to insult me again sir. I am objective, I did attempt to pass my beliefs off as fact, unlike someone else in this conversation.

reply to post by spellbound


I'm atheist because I don't believe god doesn't exist because of a deep down feeling, I believe god doesn't exist because of a conclusion I reasoned to in my conscious mind. My beliefs don't rely on faith, but a logical ultimatum - waiting for evidence.

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by Welfhard

 

I would appreciate it if you not attempt to insult me again sir. I am objective, I did attempt to pass my beliefs off as fact, unlike someone else in this conversation.

I'd appreciate it if you ignored any subtext you believed was contained in my other post, there wasn't any.

I was saying that I won't believe something just because I want it to be true - I'd love to believe in God and Jesus and all that because it's a more comforting belive, but I can't justify it to myself.

...or maybe I shoulda said that to begin with.

reply to post by Welfhard


OK, you are atheist - fair enough.

If you are waiting for proof, pleae join me - so are we all.

By the way, I would advise you to respect people who have a deep gut/bone feeling. There is a reason for this feeling.

reply to post by spellbound

By the way, I would advise you to respect people who have a deep gut/bone feeling. There is a reason for this feeling.

I don't doubt that there is a reason for this feeling but going on my own experience it's a psychological phenomena. I felt I owed it to myself that I explore the possibility that my belief in god was purely fantasy and the will to believe was based on desire for comfort and an aversion to an acceptance of a possible cold immoral, unfair reality.

Ergo I will believe when I have more reason to, ergo I need evidence.

reply to post by Welfhard


Oops, just revised my opinion.

You are agnostic because you are waiting for evidence.

An atheist doesn't believe in God.

An agnostic is waiting for evidence, which is why I think they are pathetic - they are sitting on the fence.

Originally posted by spellbound
reply to post by Welfhard

 

Oops, just revised my opinion.

You are agnostic because you are waiting for evidence.

An atheist doesn't believe in God.

Which I don't...

An agnostic is waiting for evidence, which is why I think they are pathetic - they are sitting on the fence.

No, agnosticism is not defined as "waiting for evidence" but the belief in a god or gods but the belief that the nature of it/them are unknown/unknowable.

reply to post by Welfhard


OK, so you are waiting for evidence, so you are definitely an agnostic.

We are all waiting for evidence, but some of us believe in a spiritual being, eg Jesus.

Do you believe in anything spiritual?

Originally posted by spellbound
reply to post by Welfhard

 

OK, so you are waiting for evidence, so you are definitely an agnostic.

We are all waiting for evidence, but some of us believe in a spiritual being, eg Jesus.

Do you believe in anything spiritual?

No. And I don't believe in God. By "waiting for evidence" (which is not definitive of anything) I mean 'if I am wrong about god, and it does exist, it would have to give me some evidence to go on.' But I do not believe that will happen because I believe no god exists.

Again, agnostics do believe a god/gods exist but think you can't actually understand them - which is not me.

The only thing more annoying than being pegged into the wrong hole, is deliberately being pegged into the wrong hole.

So again, disbelieving in a god (like I do) is definitive of an atheist.

You seem to think that an atheist can't wait for evidence, which would mean that if evidence did turn up they wouldn't believe it and continue to insist no God exists - That is not definitive of an atheist, it's definitive of a fundamentalist - which I also am not.

[edit on 14-4-2009 by Welfhard]

reply to post by Welfhard


I am sorry, it gets boring nitpicking, BUT...you said that you were waiting for evidence, so that makes you an agnostic.

If you were an atheist, you would not need evidence.

Originally posted by spellbound
reply to post by Welfhard

 

I am sorry, it gets boring nitpicking, BUT...you said that you were waiting for evidence, so that makes you an agnostic.

Woah woah woah! Are you being intentionally dense? Show me where in the definition of agnosticism that an agnostic must wait for evidence AND show me where in the definition of atheism that an atheist doesn't need evidence.

If you were an atheist, you would not need evidence.

I don't need evidence to support my atheism, I need evidence to cease being atheist, which I don't believe will happen.


[edit on 14-4-2009 by Welfhard]

reply to post by Welfhard


Watch it! You are quite abusive aren't you.

Atheist - a person who does not believe in God.

Agnostic - a person who is waiting for proof of God.

Originally posted by spellbound
reply to post by Welfhard

 

Watch it! You are quite abusive aren't you.

Can be, when I'm being aggravated.

Atheist - a person who does not believe in God.

Eg. Me!

Agnostic - a person who is waiting for proof of God.

That is not the definition of agnosticism. This is what agnosticism is.

Agnosticism is the philosophical view that the truth value of certain claims — particularly metaphysical claims regarding theology, afterlife or the existence of deities, ghosts, or even ultimate reality — is unknown or, depending on the form of agnosticism, inherently impossible to prove or disprove. It is often put forth as a middle ground between theism and atheism,[1] though it is not a religious declaration in itself.

Agnosticism

While I think the idea can't be disproved - ie. god isn't a falsifiable concept - but I think it can be proved positive if god exists, inherently making me not agnostic.

You're definition: "Agnostic - a person who is waiting for proof of God." requires the assumption that a god exists, which is not the accurate definition.

[edit on 14-4-2009 by Welfhard]