Even atheists believe the Lies of Religion!

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by OldThinker
Do you believe the LIES of ‘religion’?

Yep, I bet you do…

No offense intended, most do…if we are honest with ourselves? Slow down and read…and ask yourself, did you think these were true at 1 time????????

Lie 1) The Good go to heaven, the bad go to hell.

If you are saying hypothetically (based on doctrine) unrepentent mortal sinners go to hell but this can vary between dominations.

If you are speaking literally: I do not believe either go to heaven or hell as I do not believe in the concepts.. so why say I do? actually most of your points require belief in god so why would you claim atheists believe them? Most of your points also seem to be based on what you have decided are common misconceptions rather than genuine misconceptions.

I wrote the above on page 5. Maybe you are ready to respond to it now?

[edit on 28-3-2009 by riley]

Yes I do remember that post...and was drafting an attaboy to you after I asked if we had conversed...and you then went a tad controversial and obstinent...are you settled down a bit more now...

it was a well thought out post...got my treo so let me send this and ill go back and look it over...sorry bout no caps and all here my fingers are too fat with this phone..

Originally posted by OldThinker

Riley yes ill respond...

After 6 pages? :shk:

btw, you ignored my question ..

No I didn't. I answered the 1st one and I explained why I wasn't going to answer the others as they were miuch the same answer.

this thread is about false religious beliefs in a cons. of religion' thread...seems simple to me...

thus the converse of rights beliefs fair?

to me the conspiracy is in the disagreement of the two positions...

That REALLY doesn't make any sense. There are several different demominations of christianity that don't agree on the rules and details of chistianity.. that doesn't mean there must be a conspiracy and atheists having differing views on a religion they do not even believe in is not evidence they are conspiring against it.

riley...by the terminology you used on the page five response...would it be fair to me to deduce your exposure to religion had a catholic stance to it?

I'd say there is no such things as mortal sins...or...no sins are mortal ..or all sins are mortal.

sin is sin...

but you don't believe...ok...ill respectfully agree to disagree...

a few questions or implications to your beliefs

was hitler right and justified in his killings?

if you say no, from what bases do you stand on? is there some authoritative foundation to build upon?

and is it no biggie that he ended up with no retribution for his acts? no justice ?

what about rapists? if they get away with it, they are scott free?

Tough issues I know, but lack of belief ,eans lack of justice - you good with that?

Originally posted by OldThinker
Yes I do remember that post...and was drafting an attaboy to you after I asked if we had conversed...and you then went a tad controversial and obstinent...are you settled down a bit more now...

Wow back to the name calling. My original reply to you was genuine yet you started with the insults rather than actually answering my original post.

Which YOU asked for.

reply to post by riley


no name calling...I've been a tad obstinent too...

your earlier point about xtains not agreeing is true...can't the same diverse of thought be applied to atheist...heck all...about beliefs once held?

my reponse to you initially was...have we talked...

btw...have you shown any concestion...

Back again, I thought I'd use this even though it's not directed at me personally:

Originally posted by OldThinker
a few questions or implications to your beliefs

was hitler right and justified in his killings?

if you say no, from what bases do you stand on? is there some authoritative foundation to build upon?

No, he was not.

Humanitarianism, to a certain extent.

and is it no biggie that he ended up with no retribution for his acts? no justice ?

what about rapists? if they get away with it, they are scott free?

The premature ending of his life in mental anguish could be considered retribution of sorts by some, as for free rapists I hope that guilt would eat some but this is why we have the justice system, is it not? Which brings me to:

Tough issues I know, but lack of belief ,eans lack of justice - you good with that?

Lets flip this a little, if god punishes sinners for their crimes we would have no need for the physical justice system so they'd be free to carry on until their real judgement comes (from god). After all, JC said man should not judge other men - it is god's place to, ergo if man does judge in any way they are in violation of god's will and sinning themselves.

So you think that we should scrap the criminal justice system OT? Let god sort 'em all out, yeah. Are you good with that?

.....No I didn't. I answered the 1st one and I explained why I wasn't going to answer the others as they were miuch the same answer.
.....


oh I see what you are saying...yes in regards to the op...yes you did...

I was talking about more recent posts... here... what are your thoughts...

.....
1 Creation happened without a god.
2. Life results from survival, there is no right or wrong.
3. The powerful 'make it'..adapt
4. The weak are left behind.
5. Therefore look out for yourself....


or....

Love your neighbor as yourself...

The choice is clear...no man can serve 2 masters is how JC said it...

also the hitler and rapists scenario I used...

btw I just took at the top ten that bac mentioned...and quite a few ot threads were linked to...referred to...in that thread...

I'm honored...

OT

reply to post by Goathief


Sir, how did you deduce I wanted to due away with the eartly justice systems by asking if criminals get away with sins...and no ultimate justice is there?

American justice is there because judep-christian justice...

I did like your parroting me post in the inverse...very clever. Thanks, no that was good.

Originally posted by B.A.C.
What are you fighting against? I'm not trying to convince you the miracles are true. That's where faith comes in. If you don't believe it, don't believe it, doesn't make a difference to me (I don't waste my time fighting with naysayers), my beliefs are solid. I don't need to pretend anything, I believe the Book.

You're the one pretending that I care what you think.

Please, do not make me say this a 3rd time. You cannot tell me that you know a book is true, even though you dont really have to believe half of it. That makes no sense and anyone that feels it does, it a complete moron. Either the book is fiction or not. Is this book with the story of 7 headed monsters non-fiction or not?

Originally posted by OldThinker

Originally posted by AnjeluvDeath

You sure do enjoy judging people don't you?

Sensitive are we?

Why are you still here?



Not sensitive. I just love pointing out how judgemental you are. You claim to be Christian but apparently have not read the rules in your religion.

According to the bible, who and who alone is right to judge?

Is judging not then considered a sin?

Keep sinning. I am still here because others decided to take up your cause even though you have admitted taht you had no idea what you were talking about. No, not 100% of it is true or applies or can be proven and miracles can be read or skipped over but the book is still true. OK. Is this really how you all think?

Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by AnjeluvDeath

 

Good question....yeah how would one know your beliefs when you 'say' you don't want dialog...but you keep coming back?

When did I ever say that I do not want dialogue? This is about the third time you are telling me that I said something I have not said.

Can you either just quote me with your accusations to back them up for a change, or just do not accuse me of saying things I have not said. I believe I am on a discussion board to discuss. You never asked what I believe and I do not make it a habbit of just saying them when no one has asked. You seem to not want dailogue as you keep asking why I am here and hinting I should go because I said things that I have never said.

Originally posted by OldThinker

Originally posted by AnjeluvDeath
Well, you are the ignorant one. This is not my first membership here. I am back after taking a nice long break. Does that matter?

...... You already admitted you are a liar. You already admitted that the statement in the op is false. Now you try to pass it off as questions.

Look, you lied. You lied and judged. How very Christian of you.

p.s. I would watch the name calling when you have to make up words to say half of a saying a couple of times.

[edit on 27-3-2009 by AnjeluvDeath]

???????

Dude, I have two words for you...

DEE

CAFF!

Decaf is one word. Now you are just being a jerk for no reason. All I have gotten out of you is judgement and accusations and personal attacks. What kind of Christian is it that you claim to be again? Where is your church? I want to see how you all justify being rude, lying, judging...etc. You keep doing it. I wanted to talk about the statement you made in the OP but you want to play games and just attack me after each of my posts. OK....


Any REAL Christians that want to discuss the statement made in the OP, I welcome you. I need no more empty attacks or people claiming I keep saying things that can never actually be quoted because I never said them.

Originally posted by OldThinker
B.A.C.

Thank you for hanging in there....this guy gets kicks out of detrailing threads that question his perception of reality, that's all...

He does not want answers only to distract

All I have asked for is answers and all you have given me is empty, nasty, angry little replies. Please show everyone what a stupid "detrailing" person I am and put up all my off topic quotes. Then show everyone how you have been the one on topic by reposting all those answers you think you have given me.

Originally posted by B.A.C.


If you don't like OT's OP, don't participate in it. Why would you waste your time? Apparently it satisfies the Mods, they haven't removed it.

[edit on 27-3-2009 by B.A.C.]

IF OT cannot take people asking him to prove his statements, perhaps he should not start a thread on a discussion board about them. He should just say them to you.

Originally posted by OldThinker


Lie 1) The Good go to heaven, the bad go to hell.

Well since no one can really comprehend just what happens when we die terms like heaven and hell are really just abstracts to apply to this incomprehensible event. Unless you believe that absolutely nothing happens when we die then some kind of terms are needed to even talk about it.

Lie 2) You can earn God’s favor/salvation with your good works

If 95% of the population believes in some form of this whether you call it karma or being saved it is hard to disagree that there are good people on the planet and there are bad people. This just goes hand in hand with where your life energy (or soul) goes after you die. Since the OP seems to be an atheist why even think in terms of good or bad actions? I guess all actions are thus neutral, so whether I feed a hungry homeless person or kill him to get him off my street both equally neutral actions. To run an honest business and make a living must also be inferior to ripping people off and making a fortune. The big question is why have any restraints if all of it is meaningless?

Lie 3) Christianity is a bunch of don’ts

I think this goes with my answer above

Lie 4) Christianity is a made-up myth

I would suggest that the nature of man corrupts religion. Even when a religion has a good/pure foundation there will be men that will twist it to their own personal advantage, and so they will turn something that is positive in nature into a very negative event. We saw this throughout history, and so it is hard to say who is right or who is wrong. To the OP, why not say all religions are made up myths, and not just Christianity? If we went with the basic premise that there is a God/superior being that has influence over us then Christianity is not a myth, though maybe not empirically correct as to the real situation just as other religions would not be either.

If God was from an alien race that evolved 12 billion years ago he could easily be all knowing, all powerful, and we could be one of his projects to populate the universe. Jesus could easily have been a product of his to guild man in a direction to try and keep us from exterminating ourselves before we gain the wisdom to not do that. If you believe we are alone in the universe and when we die we just turn to dust then yes all religion to you are a myth, but if you believe that there could be other races out there and/or there is something after death then it is hard to describe religion as a myth.

Lie 5) The Church is a building

Well yes, just like a nuke is just a formation of different metals. It is in the interaction with humans that in both cases that make them special.

Lie 6) If you are sincere, that’s all that matters

Whether you live a positive or negative life, sincerity in your actions and thoughts will determine which way you end up leading your life. This can be applied to both religious and non-religious people, can it not?

Alright guys, let’s go to it and discuss with respect and decorum…

Once again you didn't suggest all religions here and focused on christianly, so what is your agenda? It would be much better to keep things generic than to choose one group.

What if I did a post about sociopaths and in my six myths about them I used a person’s name instead of just saying “sociopath” and then put the “Alright guys, let’s go to it and discuss with respect and decorum” statement at the end…..




[edit on 28-3-2009 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by B.A.C.


I beg to differ. As long as Satan had one of his demons working with him, it would be a conspiracy.

so...you think it is perfectly ok to just post anything you like as a truth, even though you never even attempt to produce evidence, proof, reasoning? Should I start a thread about the conspiracy to have Zeus killed as well? How about a thread all about how much Budha weighs? If OT and his "christian" minnions cannot prove and present evidence, then what are they trying to do here? They are saying things about made up characters and then just attacking anyone that questions that. I guess I completely lost the point of this thread now.

Originally posted by OldThinker


After 4 pages of the same ole question from the same two posters, I chose not to be a doormat. Did you think I was talking to you?

You are nothing but assumption and judgement aren't you? Who said I was defending the Atheist point of view? I was simply asking you to put up at least a tiny bit of evidence because I felt that your STATEMENT in the OP was false.

You have yet to provide that proof, or that evidence, and you already admitted that it could not possibly be true. Why are you still here? Just to call people impaired, dogs, put words in their mouth?

Originally posted by OldThinker
Do you believe the LIES of ‘religion’?

Yep, I bet you do…

No offense intended, most do…if we are honest with ourselves? Slow down and read…and ask yourself, did you think these were true at 1 time????????

I'm going to play along because I'm home and still in pain from surgery. I can't really do much else.

This is a goofy setup to begin with.

Let's look at this logically. I believed a lot of religious hokum because my stupid grand parents (may they stupidly rest in peace) told it to me like it was fact. You can't count someone as ever having been a believer due to underage brainwashing. So we're going to play this from age 9, the age where I began to think with a degree of logic and reason.

Lie 1) The Good go to heaven, the bad go to hell.

Nope, sorry. On it's own that's a little to simple. However, when examined that isn't even official doctrine. In fact, the massive logical fallacy that allowed me to see religion for the nonsense it is is the fact that good and bad have nothing to do with it. Apparently, simple belief in and acceptance of a fictitious character is the ONLY thing required for salvation. This "doctrine" alone should send all reasonable, rational people running from all religion, never to return.

Lie 2) You can earn God’s favor/salvation with your good works

See my answer to the first question. Never bought this either.

If this universe really operated on the childlike principle of "salvation" I would've demanded a transfer to a more adult universe a long time ago. Thankfully, it doesn't.

Until humanity grows out of religion I'm keeping to myself.

Lie 3) Christianity is a bunch of don’ts

No, it's both "do"s and "do-not"s. Do believe this, don't do that. Do say this, don't say that. Do "spread the word," don't fornicate. Do have secret gay affairs, don't tell anyone. You get the idea.

Lie 4) Christianity is a made-up myth

Semantics. The bottom line, Christianity is one of many untrue belief systems that the spiritually immature cling to because reality is far too daunting.

Lie 5) The Church is a building

Semantics again. A church is a building. The Church is an institution.

Lie 6) If you are sincere, that’s all that matters

This depends on your priorities.

All of these lies/myths/misinterpretations are backed/supported by the bible…BUT…I didn’t want this to be a bible quote thread initially, at least…fair, ok?

I just want you the reader to think this through…OT is tired of the bible quoters…of which I have been known as…can’t we just think these through intellectually?

Done...

Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by blupblup

 

bb, did I mention 'organized religion'?

hey listen the mirror is ugly..I know,l wish l could change things...

but if atheists can see the complexity of creation and deduce some mathmetically impossible null hypothesis thru 'time' and 'chance' I will continue to raise the mirror...

Love would mandate me to confront, and as you have acknowledged l do this with respect, but your boys don't want to play nice...

How do you know I do not believe in any god? How would you know that I believe everything is reducible? Again, for the 5th time, I will ask you to quote me on that. All you know is that I do not believe in your god because I do not believe your book. You admit the statement is not true and your buddy already said you have to or can toss out half of the book if you do not like those parts and make it more true. Whatever that means.

I wish you could have just discussed the topic you raised instead of attacking anyone who does not get in line behind you but, you have shown your true self. Thanks. I used to like most of your posts myself but something has changed and this is merely prosteltizing and attacking. I do not see how this fits into ATS at all.