Destiny vs. Free Will

Sorry if this is the wrong place for this post, if it is, please correct me. The other day, My buddies and I have had a heated discussion on this topic, and have yet to settle this. Im going to list their opinions and then my own on this and we will see what comes from ATS members.

Buddy 1 says that your life is based on destiny, no matter what you do, you will do what you were meant to do, and nothing can change it. Lets say you were put here to invent something to help humanity. You work all your life to get to this invention, possibly even die to make it happen. He also goes to say that as soon as your born, you are already defined to either be good or evil, whether you know it or not. There is nothing you can do to change what you are.

Buddy 2 says that you have free will to do whatever you want. You can do anything you want, and God gave you the ability to do it. He goes on to say ask how could Lucifer object against God unless he had free will to do so.

Buddy 3 says there are multiple destinies, each which can be chosen using your Free will as he would call it. Each choice leads to a different Destiny, and there are 100s of different choices. I couldnt really argue against this one, it makes sense and I was unable to make a point against it. He goes into if there can be multiple universes(a Multiverse if you will), multiple atoms, planets, and Humans, then why cant there be multiple Destinies?

I have to agree with 3, and cant find anything to fight against it like I might be able to with the others. I can see where he comes from on this one, and how it might be a possibility in a world of unknowns.

What is everyone elses take on the subject? What theories can you provide to contradict these ones provided or support them?

Rekar

I think the answer is best found in the 2nd movie of the matrix. This is where Neo is talking to the oracle and says how can he make a choice if she already knows what is going to happen. And she replies - because you didn't come here to make the choice, you already made it. You are here to understand why you made the choice.

I think both are correct. But it is your free will that leads to your destiny. The point isn't to get to your destiny, it's the journey and understanding that comes along the way that is the point.

And of course, the path that leads to there is also up to chance. If you want to go check your mail, the quickest path is to go straight to it. But you can still stop and smell the flowers, pet the dog and so on and still make it to the mailbox - your destination.



[edit on 5-1-2009 by badmedia]

There is a lovely mathematical proof that if the universe is deterministic, wh have no freedom of choice. Both mathematicians went against the theory because they believed that they had a choice in proving the paper. Quantum requires chaos and random, and that way we cannot claim to know. If you want it deterministic, remember that there is no excuse in a court of law for dice man.

reply to post by redled



Maths is only a level of understanding... the sky is blue remember?

Understand dont question, questions never end they loop..

Have a nice day

reply to post by rekar


Thats a damn good question Rekar. I think the answer is somewhat unobtainable due to the limits of human perception. I think we have free will but the universe tends to unfold as it should. Despite our ability to make individual choices, we can never make the right or wrong choices because things always go the way they were meant to.

I think to understand destiny you have to look at time. Time doesn't flow in a straight line. We perceive it to because of our mortality. We can reflect upon the past through our memories and history and we can postulate on the future but the universe is always in the present. So one could argue that destiny can't be preordained because we are never really headed anywhere. We are already where we need to be and our only other destiny is to die.

I'm gonna go with Buddy 3 and add that there are an infinite amount of choices.

wow, Great reply regarding the Matrix. I completely forgot about the Matrix during the discussion. The movie brings up a lot of questions that you can ask yourself. but I believe your reply is a great one, and you make a good point.

Everyone made the choice to be here, and also decided what they are after while they are here, before ever actually coming here(Earth that is). Its like writing a book about what you are going to do, a book of your future. Then once arriving here, they lost all conscious memories of your choices before coming to Earth.

That is what I got from your post, and I see it to be a good reply.

Chaos is not random. It can be at first sight, but if you watch it over time, you start to see a pattern. The Chaos theory comes to mind when I think of this. Computer programs that give random numbers are not random at all, how can the computer display a number it doesnt know? So everything is random to the conscious observer. but if you look on the outside of the box, it is organized and is clear.

Rekar

Originally posted by theresult
reply to post by redled

 

Maths is only a level of understanding... the sky is blue remember?

Understand dont question, questions never end they loop..

Have a nice day

No, the point I was trying to make was that the mathematicians were left with a choice, believe those equations or believe in freedom of choice. They rejected their equations, and that is clearly a level that I did not communicate.

reply to post by redled


Just wanted to add to this after reading it again.. and looking at my post after it..

What im trying to say is maths is just a preception of the universe

its like looking down two sheets of paper held close you will only see down a narrow vision of "it" aka the universe.. ie maths

Its our astral plain some say.. or whatever dimension ect ect.. but its real maths is real very very real..

When humans are like gods "live alot longer" do you think "maths" will still be void? nope why? becouse something MADE MATHS yep that part we dont understand.. becouse we never ASK IT

we are the odd number in live or what some call the event horizon we see both ways.. its a good thing !!

we get to choose thats our problem shall we go BIG or go small? what one makes more sens to us?

shall we make our own universe? im sure we could given time "if based on maths" that is

just to add "I did watch the matix yesterday lol"

I like to think of it this way:

When I was born it was pretty much predetermined that I would go to high school. While in high school though I got to choose what i would major in, what I would minor in, what classes I took and in what order.

Predestiny and free will are actually two perfectly compatible subjects.

There are things in this life I believe I was destined to do, the journey to doing them is my choice though.

I think most arguments against destiny seem to stem from an unwillingness to give up one's absolute control over their lives. I've actually put a lot of energy and time contemplating this very question. All this contemplation, and a special set of circumstances, have led me to believe the following:

Our lives are mapped out for us, somewhat like a road. As we drive down this road we are allowed to take detours and make our own choices deciding what precise route we want to take, but despite our choices, destiny will guide us through all the "checkpoints" even if we fight it.

As you go through different checkpoints it can appear that your own road has changed, but that's something like a safety measure, one's personal destiny must be kept clouded enough so that the person in question will still get up and drive every day.

We are given the option of choice so that we can actually move forward and reach our own destiny.

reply to post by redled


the matrix movie is a paradime.. its very smart.. But what its saying to you is you think you have a choice.. oh wait i do i the "freedom".

How do you know the computer in the matrix is not a human making a choice?

its a loop based on PI and fractals never ending.. its a very good film tho and makes one think alot.. and thats it think alot alot alot alot + infinitum

What we should be asking is WHAT IS MATHS.. it is not physical is it? no its not.. well it can be "becouse its in a physical thing" and we can MAKE IT aferwords.. energy.. we make matter from engery via thoughts.. very simple concept i know

just the way something is making life its creating it every single day around you and me can you see it? can you understand it? nope..

thats becouse we can SEE it.. its like looking in the mirror and not seeing yourself but anther person..

We only see maths becouse thats our level of understanding

if life has a code its dna and by life i mean the universe.. and thats some other crazy story..lol

reply to post by The Savage Khan


Nice post, and I agree there, Along with buddy 3, hehe. Time itself can be thought of as 4 dimensional, or in another dimension.

theresult - so where are you trying to go with this? math is another language that can be read like English, Latin, or German? Math is a way to calculate possibilities. It is used to translate and analyze things around us. We as Humans use a Base 10 math system, where as before, other cultures used to use a base 20 system. Math is all around you, yes. But math is just a way to analyze things, and is not needed, like language. Destiny or Free Will cannot be analyzed as there are a mere infinite number of possibilities, and our math system would fail in trying to comprehend what is behind the laws of the universe.

rekar

reply to post by TasteTheMagick


well said!!!!

just drive !!! stop looking at the stupid road lol

star for that. very well said

Randomness provides no ability for free will. Determinism is suggested to also provide no place for true free will.

However, I think I'll side with the compatibilists for now. A weak form of free will can co-exist with determinism. I am essentially part of the causal process. I have more control than most biological agents.

"Due to Circumstances
Beyond my Control,
I am the
Master of my Fate
and the Captain
of my Soul."

Originally posted by theresult
reply to post by redled

 

Just wanted to add to this after reading it again.. and looking at my post after it..

What im trying to say is maths is just a preception of the universe

its like looking down two sheets of paper held close you will only see down a narrow vision of "it" aka the universe.. ie maths

Its our astral plain some say.. or whatever dimension ect ect.. but its real maths is real very very real..

When humans are like gods "live alot longer" do you think "maths" will still be void? nope why? becouse something MADE MATHS yep that part we dont understand.. becouse we never ASK IT

we are the odd number in live or what some call the event horizon we see both ways.. its a good thing !!

we get to choose

thats our problem shall we go BIG or go small? what one makes more sens to us?

shall we make our own universe? im sure we could given time "if based on maths" that is

just to add "I did watch the matix yesterday lol"

Right you complete F*** wit, i was being polite before but you are not. It works like this, if you have a mathematical model, it works or it does not. Humanity is so much more complex, it does not have to just mathematically work, it has to work with reality. If it does not mathematically work, then you have no chance with reality. So by pointing out that it does not mathematically work, I was kinda demonstrating no reality. Work it out for yourself in your own time.

Originally posted by rekar
reply to post by The Savage Khan

 

Nice post, and I agree there, Along with buddy 3, hehe. Time itself can be thought of as 4 dimensional, or in another dimension.

theresult - so where are you trying to go with this? math is another language that can be read like English, Latin, or German? Math is a way to calculate possibilities. It is used to translate and analyze things around us. We as Humans use a Base 10 math system, where as before, other cultures used to use a base 20 system. Math is all around you, yes. But math is just a way to analyze things, and is not needed, like language. Destiny or Free Will cannot be analyzed as there are a mere infinite number of possibilities, and our math system would fail in trying to comprehend what is behind the laws of the universe.

rekar

and our math system would fail in trying to comprehend what is behind the laws of the universe.

read that again.. AND OUR MATHS SYSTEM WOULD FAIL...

lol look again

But math is just a way to analyze things, and is not needed, like language. Destiny or Free Will cannot be analyzed as there are a mere infinite number of possibilities, and our math system would fail

read it? yet you sit on your pc dont you? typing away ? or is maths failed and we aint got a clue?

I think you are missing the point here... Maths IS a reflection of US LOT understanding LIFE..

very simple US LOT DEVIDED BY LIFE

I put it in english becouse the equation is way to long lol

have a nice day...

Explain how Randomness doesnt give you Free Will... I think it would give you more chances to use your free will. It gives you more choices to over come and make decisions on. But then again, randomness isnt really random if you go by what I said earlier... You are free to choose whether or not you are going to eat in the morning or sleep late at night, but if you believe in Destiny over free will, then these choices have already been made for you, and you have no choice but to do these things, and dont know that you already made the choice.

rekar

reply to post by redled


Sorry didnt mean to be rude :| and yes im often called a F***wit

Humanity is so much more complex, it does not have to just mathematically work, it has to work with reality

why? You are not telling me nothing new..

It has to work with reality ? and what is maths based on? reality? lol

Thats why the matrix movie is so good ITs maths! a stupid loop of total nonsens

And you word it very well yourself I was mearly pointing out The is a real code but its not MATHS.. its a level UP.. just becouse its ELOGICAL does not mean its not "just means we dont know the start of the end of the code"

Its like being droped in the middle of a dna strand and working out what dna is.. Pointless..



and yes prove me wrong ..

reply to post by rekar


you are right its both.. I mean we didnt ask to be here.. but we are right? and from what we gather.. its all very odd..

Yea its odd but so what? is odd just as normal as normal? lol

what i mean is .. if we think of yin and yang then odd stuff in life is normal for us!!! its the other half of us so to speak..

without the oddness we would be normal and we are very far from normal i think.

I only try to use maths to show that we are in something alive.. i dont know why but we are.. who ? i dunno.. but we are becouse i am and maths loops im just apart of the loop "hence why i see the loop"

i can only be 2 things here or not here now that i am i question it and it will give me the answers befor i even ask becouse you have to ask first

chicken egg thing really "in maths"

Well, What is real? How do you define real? if you define real as something you can touch, taste, hear, and smell, then real just electrical pulses interpreted by the brain. I quote that from the matrix. Reality is an illusion. its a hologram put together by your brain to try and understand the signals around it. there isnt a whole lot of math around this one, if anything, this goes higher than math.

what do you define as Math? is math your form of reality? If so, how do you live in it, how can you survive?

Rekar