The "Moral Atheist" Oxymoron

Originally posted by OzWeatherman
Correct me if Im wrong, but this sounds like you are saying that atheists dont have any morals at all due to the fact that we dont believe in a god/ creator.

I think this is actually exactly what the OP was not trying to say, if I've interpreted the thread correctly.

What he's saying is that he looks around and sees lots of people who are clearly moral – they know what's right and wrong, and they choose to do what's right – and yet we say we are atheist/agnostic.

I think that the OP probably believes that we (atheists) have the same "Natural Law" instilled in us as believers – just because we don't believe in God doesn't mean that He doesn't believe in us.

I don't see the need to attribute morality to anything outside of ourselves.

He points to the "law of nature" and says that while we know it's wrong to kill, many animals will kill others of their kind in a struggle for food, mating rights, territory, whatever – therefore there must be something different acting in us.

But while that's true for some animals, it is not true for others. We might as well posit a Natural Law for each separate species, or at least every species that displays some sociality. We are a part of nature just as lions are a part of nature, or fish, or Black Widow spiders. We all have in our design certain behavioral patterns that are part of being a member of our species.

In addition, we have social norms which are not constant – like using turn signals while driving, or not eating meat on Fridays, or wearing metal rings to elongate our necks. In most cases I believe that adherence to these traditions can be traced to empathy, which I believe to be at the core of the social nature of humankind.

I think that asking why atheists are moral is in a way akin to asking why atheists have opposable thumbs. It doesn't really matter whether or not you believe in God – to someone with a strict creationist view of the world, I have thumbs (even though I don't believe in God) because God designed me that way.

Similarly, I am moral in that world-view because God designed me that way.

In my world-view, I have opposable thumbs and morality because human evolved to have opposable thumbs and morality. There was no Intelligence involved in the design – just the universe working its way through its story.

OP, if that's not what you're asking, sorry for misrepresenting you

the mere idea of a creator programming us with a set of morals just about goes against the very notion and belief that god gives us free will. let alone the fact that if that were so people wouldnt rape murder and steal.

now im not religious but its my understanding that god gives us free will so we may choose for ourselves to either follow his word and receive his love or to do what we want and be punished by it by spending all eternity in hell. the idea behind this being that god has faith in us to do the right thing.

but lets ignore this entirely...

lets discuss morals. what is moral? someone else made an excellent about this. morals is whatever we believe to be good or right. at one point it was considered moral to burn people at the stake for being witches. now in our time we view this as immoral and barbaric. so which is actually moral? our belief that persecuting people and then killing them based on fake scientific evidence (if they float they must be a witch, which is neither scientific or evidence of anything other than people can be buoyant) or their belief that people that can float are witches and must be burned at the stake or worse?

i ask this because the people doing this were religious people. now im not saying that makes religious people bad but what i am suggesting it that religion is not and must not be a basis for your morality. that type of morality has changed as often as the dunes in a desert. many consider homosexuality immoral. WTF? who gives other people grounds with which to say what anyone does in their own bedroom is immoral? is it moral to pass judgment on others for what they do in private? how moral is it to tell others how to live?

i have an ex mother in law who thought i was evil incarnate. i was not raised a christian and did not go to church and to this day i see no need to. this made her mad to no end. she thought going to church makes you a good person. how moral is it for you to think less of me for simply not going to church? how moral is it to try and tell an adult what they need to do on their sunday morning? if she thinks going to church gets her closer to god then thats her thing i want no part of it. more importantly how does going to church override the ignorant rude crap you do on a daily basis? i cant imagine it being very moral to act like an absolute goon during the week and then go to church and suddenly your "sins" are absolved. i always thought that part of repenting was to not repeat the sins you seek forgiveness for. or am i missing something here?

i dont think morality comes from anything other than trying to be consistent in your mind and in your actions. if you want others to be nice to you, be nice to others. it comes from simply wanting to help others. its not about whether someone is religious or not. even going to church is meaningless if you dont listen to and then follow the teachings that are taught in church.

you can call it whatever you want, morality, nature's law, its all the same. its a social construct by which we views others actions. view, not judge. the difference is significant. one can say that homosexuality is immoral but not make comments like "fags will go to hell". that isnt for us to say or decide and IMO is immoral in itself.

morality is subjective to be honest and there is no set in stone morality. even killing people isnt always immoral, stealing isnt always immoral. if you steal to feed your children and you feel you had no other choice...its a tough thing to do but its more immoral to let your children go hungry. its immoral to kill someone but if you do it because they're trying to kill you, you cant help that.

some want a concrete answer to something that just cant be put into a particular mold. morality is a human concept. its made up by man.

Hi everyone, If you'd like to see non-emotional reasons for why being moral and being an atheist is really quite a good fit, check out my new book at amazon.com called "The Moral Atheist", coincidentally enough.