Was Akhenaten the first Christian?

Originally posted by Good Wolf
I particularly don't think that he is Moses, rather Moses' superior, probably the one who gives Moses the tablets (or whatever).

That's interesting. But when you have a military general replacing Tut, the implication is that Akhenaten's actions were so profundly disturbing to the 1000-years-in-power priests (traditionally like mini-pharaohs themselves) that these priests simply had to destroy him and used the military to do so.

When considering the throne, how else can one explain why some other house did not take the throne, considering the power of Akhenaten's father, Amenhotep III who was the most powerful ruler of the whole region at the time of his ascension? Clearly it was because the lineage came through the females and that it is the story of Yuya and his daughter Tiye, wherein lies the truth about what Amarna really was.

It is important to note that in the Amarna letters, the firstborn daughter of Nefertiti and Akhenaten is mentioned, by foreign kissers of Akhenaten's bum, by her colloqial nickname, "Mayati". History knows her as Meritaten. Believe this about the world of that time: It was a lot like Spock's world, ie.e Vulcan, where women are right at the center of power. Think of Tiye as T'pau, and think of Akhenaten as Spock, but with a healthy libido. Nefertiti would be T'pring, Spock's mate. I am mixing my egyptian and Star Trek metaphors here, so forgive me.

My point is that what the whole Jesus story omits is the female essence. That's the whole point of the Davinci code, whether you believe it or not, it is no less earth-shattering than the Amarna heresey.

Only in the last 200 years has Amarna been brought into the light. With the tombs of Yuya and Tut, the french expedition to Amarna and the discovery of the Amarna letters. The skirts of today's bishops and cardnials are being rendered transparent.

Perhaps some might cast Akhenaten in a Stalin-esque light? How stupid such a postion would be, when this pharaoh did not establish a gulag, and did not use violence against the temples. Couldn't Akhenaten have used the distant egyptian battalions to defend Amarna? But no, similar to Jesus, he was not establishing his kingdom at that time. He shut down the religious temples of his day, just as Jesus raged like a madman in the temple of his day and shut them down, by kicking out the banksters.

Of course it may have been that he did die and only the priests escaped.

I think it is a bit much to overlook Akhenaten and say that he was some godlike lawgiver? He handed down the tablets? Tell me more about your theory.

It would be much more helpful if Zoroastrian was able to be linked to Akhenaten some how.

Helpful how?


[EDITED in respect to Trek.]

[edit on 1-11-2008 by smallpeeps]

Originally posted by noobfun
reply to post by Resinveins

 

any time ^_^

HEY MOOOOOOOOOOOO

www.irishoriginsofcivilization.com... is this the stuff?

we were looking at it on a post on akheanaton to be found here www.abovetopsecret.com...

Thanks for the links, have not had a good look yet, haven't seen them before.

The author whos name escapes me is as I rcall a UK uni prof, I'll have to pop back to the library and dig out her work coz it will bug me forever now that this thread has been started.

To tell the truth i haven't taken the oportunity to check out many websites in relation to this subject (s) I find it easier to go to a library and get a book knda cut out the middle man. Trouble is I forget authors and titles easily.

Nevertheless there was definately a buriel site found in the UK, when excavated turn up some beads that were only manufactured in egypt and this was one of the links that set this archeolagyst off.

I was reading Uriels Machine at the time (equally as interesting and highly recomended) and it was a while ago so I'm stabbing in the dark regarding sources till time permits.

reply to post by Simplynoone

How can yall say history is a lie in the bible and then turn around and believe any other history on any other person like it is truth ................
And here you have someone who you claim the body was never found just like Jesus and your gonna believe his story over Jesus story >? How double standard is that ?

I understand your point here. But supposing that we are meant to connect the dots? Some of the dots may lead us nowhere, whereas, some may lead us to the jackpot.

The problem is; when you have an aged blueprint that may have some major errors to it, but it is familiar to you (and it does still have an important message), but...you would miss any new messages as long as you insist on sticking to it, without allowing any changes! Everything needs editing eventually. Even relationships need to be re-defined to keep them alive.

You can view the Bible and all other holy writings this way. If you do, it is not so scary. What is scary is if you keep going down the same road with the same information without ever allowing changes or growth. While there are more roads to discover that could get you to your destination quicker, and would actually give you more insight, to add to what you already know.

But this is a very scary concept, I know.

Originally posted by Good Wolf
reply to post by moocowman

 

What you said is all pretty reasonable to me but I'd say that it seems more likely that Moses (or Mesis according to Zeitgeist) was a priest of the cult. Considering that the Pharaohs were believed to be divine, it would make more sense if Moses wasn't Akhenaten himself but an underling.

I tend to agree, how about a brother or half brother I ask this considering the bible alluding to his authority.

But there again Tutmoses had the same title and after all moses is said to have been of the royal family.

Moses goes back to egypt to "set my people free" so he's obviously returning for the followers of the Aten, and I just can't see why pharo wouldn't have cut him down there and then.

So moses must have had leverage, we're told it was magic tricks but this somehow doesnt sit right.

Why would the pharo go chasing across the country after some slaves and a cult priest, this doesn't make sense unless the pharo was afraid of something.

What if moses was the rightful heir to the throne of egypt and returned to cut a deal with pharo? eg keep the throne just give me the followers of the aten and some items from Armana.


Who knows eh, if only we could just zip back in time and snatch the library of alexandria before the christians burned it, the irony being it could well have proved their case lol

Was Akhenaten aware of much more than he let on? Is there more subtext to be seen within the religious artifacts of Amarna?





Sun worship? But having the sun at the center of the universe is a crazy idea, especially when you consider that the Earth is a tiny little speck in comparison to the Sun, and also that the sun is a giant liquid magnet, which was set on its own heavenly course, long before the Internet or Stonemasonry, was even invented.

reply to post by Res Ipsa


I would have to agree with you 100 pct. Jesus only wanted in the beginning that the Jews follow some new changes in the Jewish laws. He didn't want to break them or change them completely. Just a few words here and there. The jews didn't except that. Actually the Elite didn't want to do it and so the lowly had to follow as they usually do and still do. So, some of the jews did see Jesus;s words and liked them and decided to follow it and tell other peoples outside of Judia and people listened. Its the present Catholic church that likes to stand in ceremony and pomp which made them look very important. This should not have been done. As Jesus never wore gold sandles or big bright robes and flashing big diamond rings on his fingures. Jesus was a simple man with new ideas. I would agree that Jews for Jesus has come just in time and hopefully follow some of the older laws and ceremonys of the Jewish fate. Afterall, Jesus was and is still Jewish. Its the Christians that made the name change and changed the ceremonys for flash and to impress the lowly of how great God is. Well, we don't need any religion to tell us that God is Great. We know that. Its just the teachings that we have to go by in our daily lives.

reply to post by Good Wolf


I never understood why they called Jesus Christ as someone called John Smith. He should and I call him Jesus the Christ or Christ Jesus. I kringe when I hear that in church. Ofcourse me telling the Priest or pastor that would say that that is what they call him now, They will not acknowledge him to say that Christ Jesus or Jesus the Christ said this or that according to etc etc. Its hard for them to make that change. I, for one, if I was a Priest or paster would use it all the time. I even correct people on a daily conversation when they talk about religion. They don't know how to reply to my saying this to them. Leaves them dumb I suppose.

The Amarna letters show that Akhenaten was def. a lover not a fighter. You could say he was inspired by the devil, but why did he meet with such overwhelming opposition from the Egyptian priesthood? "If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub."

And Akhenaten was not a simple sun worshipper, as some have pointed out:

Donald Mackenzie, Egyptian Myth and Legend, p. 331:
He believed in the "one and only god", Aton, whose power was manifested in the beneficent sun; the great deity was Father of all mankind, and provided for their needs and fixed the length of their days. Aton was revealed in beauty, and his worshippers were required to live beautiful lives--the cultured mind abhorred all that was evil, and sought after "the things which are most excellent"; it shrank from the shedding of blood; it promoted the idea of universal brotherhood, and conceived of a beautiful world pervaded by universal peace.

No statues of Aton were ever made; Akhenaton forbade idolatrous customs. Although Aton was a sun god, he was not the material sun; he was the First Cause manifested by the sun, "from which all things came, and from which ever issued forth the life-giving and life-sustaining influence symbolized by rays ending in hands that support and nourish human beings". "No such grand theology had ever appeared in the world before, so far as we know," says Professor Flinders Petrie, "and it is the forerunner of the later monotheist religions, while it is even more abstract and impersonal, and may well rank as scientific theism." The same writer says: "If this were a new religion, invented to satisfy our modern scientific conceptions, we could not find a flaw in the correctness of its view of the energy of the solar system. How much Akhenaton understood we cannot say, but he had certainly bounded forward in his views and symbolism to a position which we cannot logically improve upon at the present day. No rag of superstition or of falsity can be found clinging to this new worship evolved out of the old Aton of Heliopolis, the sole lord or Adon of the Universe."

The Hyksos were quite possibly the Israelites. Josephus identified the Israelite Exodus with the first exodus mentioned by Manetho, when some 480,000 Hyksos "shepherd kings" left Egypt for Jerusalem.

As to Moses, Wikipedia, as always, has a few interesting theories:

Strabo

The most prevalent of the accredited reports in regard to the temple at Jerusalem represents the ancestors of the present Judaeans, as they are called, as Aegyptians. Moses, namely, was one of the Aegyptian priests, and held a part of Lower Aegypt, as it is called, but he went away from there to Judaea, since he was displeased with the state of affairs there, and was accompanied by many people who worshipped the Divine Being.

Osarseph

According to Josephus, Manetho described Osarseph as a tyrannical high priest who rose to power during the reign of Pharaoh Amenhotep. He was part of the priesthood of Osiris at Heliopolis, and is supposed to have built up a following amongst "diseased" people, possibly lepers. Amenhotep had a dream which he interpreted as divine advice to expel Osarseph and his diseased followers from the nation. He exiled them into Canaan where they organised a rebellion in alliance with the Canaanite population. The Osarsephites then invaded Egypt, driving Amenhotep and his son Ramses, also known as Sethos, into exile.
Osarseph and his leper followers are said to have instituted a 13-year reign of religious oppression before Amenhotep and Ramesses/Sethos eventually returned to oust the usurpers, expel them from the nation, and restore the old Egyptian religion.

Manetho apparently states that these events are the real history behind the biblical story of Moses and the Israelites, an argument that Josephus rejects as absurd. Many modern scholars interpret it as an early example of anti-Semitism (especially the claim that Jews are descendants of exiled lepers). It is typically explained as a conflation of the story of Akhenaten's 12-year monotheistic regime with that of Moses as narrated in the Bible. Akhenaton was the successor of Amenhotep III, but did not usurp power from his father. However, there seems to have been a co-regency period, which may have included two centres of power, one in the traditional capital of Thebes and one in Akhenaten's new capital at Amarna.

Now, Moses does not strike me as being the same as Akhenaten, as their "personalities," as much as one can deduce, are quite different. And this gets into all sorts of tricky things with chronology, with the Hyksos expulsion happening several hundred years before this.

[edit on 2-11-2008 by Eleleth]

I believe Peter was the first to call Jesus "The Christ".

reply to post by Good Wolf


warning, this is all theoretical! i do have some documentation and artifacts to support the theory but i can't literally prove it nor back up every concept within the theory with documents or artifacts!

i'm not sure of the EXACT date, but i really believe if you go back just a bit before sumer (ubaidian period, perhaps?), there were no HUMANS (as in homo sapiens) on this planet. if you look at the earth goddess statues from that time period, they are all reptilian (and this is no joke). the theory goes thusly:

this planet contained humanoid, bipedal reptilian races. they flourished and grew to prominence along with the dinosaurs (maybe not at the same time but shortly after, anyway). they developed technologically, and went out to colonize other planets and moons in our solar system, and eventually beyond. these were the people of atlantis and various other ancient cultures we hear only brief data about.

anyway, there's a huge government in the universe in which many planets belong. earth joined this government. some of the members here, however, disagreed with the way that government was run and a war broke out. the end result was the use of some kind of weapon that not only destroyed a planet or moon that was inhabited between mars and saturn (now the asteroid belt) but also devastated the earth, causing an extinction event and ice age.

the survivors of the earth cataclysm, took up temporary shelter in one of their offworld colonies, while the earth was being re-terraformed. when the ice melted and water receeded to reveal the earth once more (and the dry land appeared). upon returning they set about the task of rebuilding their former world, but many were accustomed to a much easier life and complained bitterly. an uprising occured in which it was determined that something would have to be done to lessen the workload. it was then that one of their leaders, known simply in sumerian texts as Enki, got a brilliant idea.

during one of his offworld explorations, he encountered the race of homo sapiens, on an uncharted, paradise planet within the governance of the government he had been at war with. this government was overseen by someone known as enlil and the council of "the gods." he and enlil were bitter enemies. so he snatched the few people he had found there and brought them to earth, taught them trade skills relevant to rebuilding their civilization and for mining resources.

time advanced and as it did, so did the population of human slaves. so to gain control of the situation, enki created hybrids to oversee the slaves. in fact, he was quite fond of tinkering with genetics, and created all manner of new and unusual species (perhaps as a form of mimicking what he knew to be other lifeforms in the universe?). these started intermingling, causing even stranger lifeforms. unfortunately, on earth, this created a serious genetic problem.

wars broke out as the genetically enchanced livestock and crops became too polluted to consume. it was a war for the remaining resources. the wars further polluted the land, water and air, until humans were dying by the thousands from pollution of every kind and starvation. the hybrids created to rule them were hardier and decided to make use of the dying slave population. thusly, they began to eat the human slave population in an act of global cannabalism (see solyent green for an example).

enlil, who had been keeping tabs on the activity, decided to end the entire fiasco by rescuing what few humans had survived. no one else was to be warned, including the hybrids who had been created to oversee the human population. then enki and the original inhabitants of the planet, who were aware of what was about to transpire, jumped ship as the flood wiped sumer and several surrounding cities from the map, this included coastal cities all over the world. enki, however, didn't keep his end of the bargain about not warning the hybrids. he found a way to warn one of the hybrids, the king of sumer, who, as in the case of noah, rescued as many family members and friends as he could from the impending doom.

the rest of the texts suggest the battle between these two groups -- the human population vs. the hybrids, has been going on, ever since, although the playing field was levelled at the time, the scales soon started tipping in favor of the hybrids. thus we see the beginning of the babylonian and egyptian dynasties.

Hi, undo. What I have always wondered is why reptiles were originally viewed by the Egyptians as malevolent, but during the Middle Kingdom they came to be revered. The Sobek cult suddenly takes over, with the Pharaohs identifying themselves as incarnations of Sobek instead of Horus.

Egyptian Myth and Legend, Donald Mackenzie p. 236 "We also find that in religious literature the reptile is now referred to as the friend and not as the enemy of the good Osiris [!]"

reply to post by Eleleth


well my theory on that is, they make up the biblical angelic race known as the seraphim. obviously, some of them must've been good, just not all of them. a reflection of every race in the universe, i imagine. some good, some not, some somewhere inbetween.

have you ever read the writings of Seti I?

Originally posted by undo
well my theory on that is, they make up the biblical angelic race known as the seraphim. obviously, some of them must've been good, just not all of them. a reflection of every race in the universe, i imagine. some good, some not, some somewhere inbetween.

have you ever read the writings of Seti I?

I do not consider any of the powers and principalities to be good per se, but I am a pessimist in all things. I am not familiar with Seti I's writings; it's interesting that he would be named after Set, isn't it?

reply to post by Eleleth


yep. i can't find it right now, but when i do, i'll link ya up.
it's really quite amazing.

Originally posted by smallpeeps

It would be much more helpful if Zoroastrian was able to be linked to Akhenaten some how.

Helpful how?

Well the Judaism drew heavily on Zoroastrianism, which in itself is very similar to Atenism and it also occurred not too long after the fall of Akhenaten. It would be easier to say that Atenism was the basis for Zoroastrianism than Judaism.

judaism drew heavily on sumer. which predates zoroaster by a few thousand years

reply to post by undo


Well maybe originally. Sumer and early Jews both had Henotheistic religions, but exposure to Zoroastrianism brought about their monotheism.

[edit on 11/3/2008 by Good Wolf]

Originally posted by Good Wolf

Originally posted by smallpeeps

It would be much more helpful if Zoroastrian was able to be linked to Akhenaten some how.

Helpful how?

Well the Judaism drew heavily on Zoroastrianism, which in itself is very similar to Atenism and it also occurred not too long after the fall of Akhenaten. It would be easier to say that Atenism was the basis for Zoroastrianism than Judaism.

I agree with you. I will read more and reply.

Yes, surely Akhenaten's family's atomization into the greater world, (we are talking about at least five daughters who carried the blood of Nefertiti and Akhenaten) was done with great care. These girls went out and made all atempts to spread Akhenaten's ideas globally. Of course when Amarna was built, who could Akhenaten call upon, to build the temple of his father? Of course it was Israel or "Joshua and his bunch of stonemasons". These builder/soldiers created Akhenaten's city and covered his retreat when it fell, then joined him in exile, along with Jethro's people and others, as "Moses" rose to lead them.

After Horemheb, there was a massive pandemic which swept through Egypt and which lasted for decades. This was one of the main reasons why Akhenaten had his people wander in the desert. He saw that Amarna would be laid waste by plague anyway. All the talk about Osarseph and the "diseased" people, is simple sour grapes because they died from plague while Akhenaten (like his ancestor Yuya) either had or interpreted a dream, where plague came through Egypt. Naturally after he left, and the disease came, then the people left behind would say "Oh those diseased Amarna people! They caused this!"... And no, Freud was wrong. They did not kill Moses in the desert, they were held there by his will, while Egypt was ravaged with disease.

The dispersion of the Amarna culture cause many things. It was the root of Moses, Zoroaster, Mithraism and more. These things were seeded in the idea of the Aten, and then veiled again. The priests (both Hebrew and Egyptian) who bear the guilt for their "killing" of the king, Akhenaten, took his method and began to apply it for evil. Hence there is the Jesuit "Black Sun" which is the opposite of Atenism, if one considers the fruits of either path. ...In order for the priests to have power, they must use the totem of Akhenaten's family. The whole of their religion is guilt-founded. It is the all-pervaeding guilt of their killing of the king, and the priests are happy to keep that guilt flowing, like blood. Same with the Hebraic leaders who cut deals with the Nazis and sold out their people. In the end, it is priests versus king.

German paganists have delighted in displaying the trophy of their victim or foe, witness the movie "Raiders of the Lost Ark" In this movie, why does Hitler want the Ark so badly? The US representative says Hitler is "a nut. He's obsessed with the occult." ...Even the one nazi tasked with finding the ark, is uncomfortable with this "Jewish ritual", as he calls it, at the end of the movie. ...None of the Nazi's were Jews, but rather were working the ovens to burn jews as their Vatican fathers had also burned witches, gypsies and other enemies of their one-true-faith. It was not really Hitler, but rather Himmler, who would probably have pursued such an adventure, as his uncle was a Jesuit and it was Himmler who initiated the Inquisiton and Burning of so many enemies of papist/germanic rome.

Why did Germanic paganists like the Nazis, covet the totem of the Hebrews in that movie? Why did the movie refer to the ark as "The Fuhrer's Prize"? Is there a connection between the era of the Ark (Moses' time) and the era of the Pope's obelisk (built by Akhenaten's grampa)?

reply to post by smallpeeps


Well said. However, do you have or know of any research that you could reference that delves into all this?