Free will or determinism?

Which do you believe in?

I like to believe that we have free-will but there is a really strong argument for determinism.

I think determinism could make the case that we aren't really free at all that we're just pawns of society and that free-will really could be proven by the fact that we're mostly free-thinkers.

Both.

Determinism because that is just what is, and free will because the future cannot be known so determinism is a superfluous reality.

Free will may be an illusion but it's a practical illusion.

free will

we need to train our minds to work with,not against others..a sweeping statement sure..but think of it.from the time we're born we wrestle for the teet,so to speak.

we should teach kids not to compete but work together,get this into their minds from day 1

www.abc.net.au...

reply to post by aylyan


My God. There is no way that this guy is not an alien

I personally ascribe to the concept of wyrd and orlog. It's often described as not being overly pre-deterministic, although much of the mythology that surrounds wyrd is based on cycles that are regular predictable events.

There is scope for some free will though, working with what you've got &c, but much of that relies on the relationship between now and the past. The options you have now are generally rooted in what's happened in the past and your future is similarly shaped by what options you make now and so the past, present and future are just one thread.

Originally posted by Good Wolf

My God. There is no way that this guy is not an alien

it's highly suspicious that they only show him from the neck up...maybe he has 3 arms and an obe

Choice kind of overrides determinism, so I lean toward free will.

But...

I'm also one to believe free will is an illusion, even for God. So I would not say free will, but rather just will.

I have no doubt in the least that what most of us call "free will" is simply a manipulation of our conscious minds through centuries of programming.

No offense to the religious, but religion is the number one manipulator in our existence. The power of the Vatican goes WAY beyond just Catholicism and Christianity. The Vatican has political power over most governments and even most religions (including Islam and others you would least expect)

Religion has been around since the dawn of man, and some powerful people gained their power through creating ORGANIZED religion. Religion dictates to our conscience what is good, bad, righteous, evil (virtue, sin) and by gaining control of the conscience of man, they gained control of how we think- which in turn dictates how we act.

There is a lot of depth to what has been done to the peons of the world and to those at the top levels of power, we are but cattle. We jokingly call blind followers sheep- but how many people actually understand the validity of that jest? I wonder how many people realize that "The Matrix" could actually be a parable for reality?

You can laugh, but there is a LOT of knowledge that is being shared as the older generation lay in their death beds. Information that was easily concealed before. It is getting harder and harder for information to be stifled, but at the same time it also creates a world of BS to sort through to discern truth.

[edit on 10/3/08 by c00ster]

[edit on 10/3/08 by c00ster]

Determinism.

Free will is an illusion bound by the limits of who and what you are.

Originally posted by Good Wolf
reply to post by aylyan

 

My God. There is no way that this guy is not an alien

I'm genuinely interested in why you should say that.

The fact that you linked specifically the image rather than reposted the URL suggests that you find his appearance to be 'alien-like' rather than what he's actually said.

Care to clarify?

reply to post by Frankidealist35


this is just a version of pascal's wager...it's better to assume you have free will because if you had it, but believed in determinism, you would be unnecessarily limiting your powers...it's like ARGUE FOR YOUR LIMITATIONS AND YOU GET TO KEEP THEM...among other proverbs...

whereas if I believe in free will, but determinism was true, well that's just another random false thing I am deterministically stuck with believing anyway...so I can't help it, so I don't need to worry about it, and it's probably far from the worst thing I'm deterministically stuck with, on the list of blind predilections, know what I mean?

determinism is more suitable for plants than animals, dead things than live things, weak things than strong things, it's giving up...
it's being over becoming...it's not western, progressive,cowboy,satanic,forward or American...so, in other words, like everything else, it's just a matter of taste...and my tastes run in the other direction...

reply to post by Merriman Weir


I was joking about his head. Big, oval and he has a tiny face at the bottom of it. He almost looks like a conehead.

Don't worry about it, I was having a laugh.