only FEW Christians actually to go Heaven

The OP may not want to talk to unbelievers..

However, I am ready to answer any Qs, I don't reserve the truth to just those who are Christian.

I agree with the above poster, that response was pretty smug and "I'm better than thou" IMHO.

its pointless answering to non believers , its not that i dont WANT to , its just a waste of time, because the topic i raise requires biblical knowledge.

it has nothing to do with arogance , get over yourselves and answer my question

why are milions of non believers trown into the lake of fire by Christ even though they believed they called Him Lord (which an atheist wont do) they were able to cast out DEMONS etc etc. WHY ?!

Matthew 7:22

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct


i think Jesus was pretty blunt when he said few find life. he was talking to his disciples when he said this, not to the multitudes who didnt understand much when it came to God. Jesus was very specific when he said what will happen to the many and the few, i dont see why Jesus would still be talking riddles when he raised such an important topic, salvation.

thus i dont see what the few find life verse in which i believe he was blunt has anything to do with corinthians which is obviously left for our imagination to go wild.

So what is your point. As the scripture says only a few go to heaven or are saved. So what was the point in points these out????? Let God saves who hes going to save and let us be ponds!! God bless

The great multitude that "no man" could number is the 144,000. Note John didn't number the 144,000, he was told the number before hand. No man could look upon 144,000 and number (count) them. Notice that the mention of the multitude is directly after he is told the number.....

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed a hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Naphtali were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zebulun were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

People get hung up on the fact that it mentions Israelite tribes, then the mention of peoples from all nations etc, forgetting that Israel is now spiritual and is from all nations and peoples etc

GALATIANS 6;15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

See also Romans 11.

reply to post by doctorex

People get hung up on the fact that it mentions Israelite tribes,

That is because these verses DO mention 12 tribes of the children of Israel.

then the mention of peoples from all nations etc, forgetting that Israel is now spiritual and is from all nations and peoples etc

While I am not an expert on Revelation (or eschatology), I don't think you are being fair with the text. I'm fully aware of the Gal. reference and Romans 11, but I've never tried to make 144,000 into a number no man could count.

This seems to be a similar trait with a whole lot of eschatology views.

reply to post by PreTribGuy

This seems to be a similar trait with a whole lot of eschatology views.

YES...I know I'm replying to myself...I just wanted to address a few things to a broader audience than just doctorex.

I'm fully aware of the "weakness" in my Pre-tribulation beliefs, but I'm also aware of it's strengths. There IS a verse, that 'seems' to imply a POST-trib Rapture, but I'm not entirely convinced that it does. I've gone into this, at length, in previous postings here in this forum so I don't want to post it again for the sake of brevity.

While I have several verses in the Bible that show me that the Rapture is PRE-TRIB, I cannot ignore the one that "hurts" my side.

And so it goes with eschatology...

I've read many many viewpoints and I know the "weakness" AND "strengths" of all of them. I utterly reject Preterism, in both it's "partial" and "full" form. They are (ultimately) opposing views of an errant eschatology (with each OTHER, even!) I can't make friends with either of THEM...and THEY aren't friends with each other...and they wouldn't like ME, either.

There are (obviously) many other views and many of them have MANY MANY weaknesses that are obvious when you see which verses they "leave out" that say something that HURTS their view. This is dishonest scholarship. Another tactic is to "spiritual-ize" certain verses so that it fits their current view of eschatology.

From 70 AD (or so) to May 14th, 1948, no "eschatology expert" could have "explained" this verse:
Isaiah 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

After this prophecy was fulfilled in 1948, an eschatology novice could EASILY add that event 'in' because of "hindsight". In fact, it seems with certain events unfolding before our eyes (circa 2008), many folks seem to be able to fit in those "missing pieces".

I like that.

Eschatology is not settled doctrine, so we are (apparently) allowed to offer up scholarship on it. I KNOW my eschatology isn't perfect because THEN...it would need to be settled doctrine...and it isn't!

I have to (ultimately) agree with the eschatology view that most fits what the Bible says.

As I said earlier, I am aware of the other views of eschatology and none of them are honest enough to admit where they are struggling and (almost by definition) they either ignore the verses that oppose their view (until brought up by an opposer), or they seem to dismiss those verses in such a way that they mean nothing at ALL anymore. I'm sure there are tactics that I cannot even fathom, but they are errant if they don't allow the Bible to interpret itself.

I don't claim to have a perfect eschatology DOCTRINE. I am just aware of the "less perfect" variations...and I reject them.

ANY eschatology view that presumes that "We (Christians of 2008) have it coming to us (DESERVE the GREAT Tribulation) just because THEY say there are lazy carnal Christians around" is abhorrent to me. If there is just one single Christian in the past that lived (more or less) a fruitful and delightful life and died withOUT the GREAT Tribulation: I LIKE IT!

I cannot despise those who explore Biblical eschatology while letting the Bible explain itself. I LIKE reading about it. I've noted that no-one (not even me) has it entirely perfect, but I believe that my current confession is the most true to God's word.

I wonder (even right now) if Revelation (and other prophecies concerning eschatology) is like puzzle pieces turned "upside down" (purposely...by God) and that the rest of the Bible is the "Picture on the outside of the box". And THEN...God turns over certain puzzle pieces on His own time frame? (1948 ring a bell for anyone?)

Again....prior to May, 1948...did anybody REALLY understand and EXPLAIN RIGHTLY the prophecy of Isaiah 66:8? If they did, then they KNEW they weren't in the end times.

Here is a link to my (closest I could find to 2008) person who seemed to "get" eschatology and actually comment on his being perplexed to Israel becoming a nation. This was written in 1909 I think. I (actually) think this guy nailed it.

www.mun.ca...

Originally posted by DHammer
reply to post by Myrtales Instinct

 

i think Jesus was pretty blunt when he said few find life. he was talking to his disciples when he said this, not to the multitudes who didnt understand much when it came to God. Jesus was very specific when he said what will happen to the many and the few, i dont see why Jesus would still be talking riddles when he raised such an important topic, salvation.

thus i dont see what the few find life verse in which i believe he was blunt has anything to do with corinthians which is obviously left for our imagination to go wild.

He was blunt when he said few find life but he's not just talking to the disciples in the Bible - he's talking to anyone with two good ears. In fact, to be a disciple means to follow. He also says that one day he won't have to talk in riddles but will talk plainly to us and this is achieved through the Holy Spirit.

The other day, I was participating on the thread, "Did Gnosticism try and Usurp Christianity or is it the real message of Christ" and I made the point that the only rite the Catholic Church doesn't acknowledge, let alone teach is the rite of what is called "The Bridal Chamber." If the Bridal Chamber is true and it was meant to be a part of his true teachings, did the church change the doctrine because of a lack of understanding or did they do it deliberately. Of course, someone of Catholic faith came right along to tell me, that the Bridal Chamber was basically a corruption of the spousal nature of God to his people, whereas gnosticism tried to make it particular to an individual and they then fail to appreciate the bond of consumation to all of humanity but that everyone is invited and can be continually present in the Eucharist rite.

The Eucharist is not the Bridal Chamber. People are able to stand on their two feet and receive the eucharist. In the Bridal Chamber you hit the floor face down, unable to stand, like what happened to Daniel... or in Revelations when the elders fall on their faces. There is a baptism, a chrism, a eucharist and a bridal chamber. That's a fact. But still the question needs an answer did they do it deliberately or because of a lack of understanding.

Anyways, the saying in Corinthians has everything to do with few finding life.





[edit on 25-11-2008 by Myrtales Instinct]

Originally posted by PreTribGuy
reply to post by doctorex

 

People get hung up on the fact that it mentions Israelite tribes,

That is because these verses DO mention 12 tribes of the children of Israel.

then the mention of peoples from all nations etc, forgetting that Israel is now spiritual and is from all nations and peoples etc

While I am not an expert on Revelation (or eschatology), I don't think you are being fair with the text. I'm fully aware of the Gal. reference and Romans 11,

Not being fair with the text? How? If you are aware of the verses refrenced then you should be aware that the Israel of God is now spiritual, and I'm aware that the tribes are mentioned, that is merely organization within this spiritual body.

but I've never tried to make 144,000 into a number no man could count.

Note in the verses that John is told the number, he doesn't count them. It doesn't say the number is what no man can count, but the multitude of people. Do you think you, or any man, could look on a group of 144,000 people and count them? No. John is told the number of them that were sealed, then he is shown them, and by his words he is obviously overwhelmed by the vision.

reply to post by doctorex


Doctorex, I knew I could smell a whiff of a particular false eschatology in what you said above.

While I would enjoy serious scholarship regarding eschatology, I am no friend of Ronald Weinland...at ALL!

...and I'm sure no follower of him would like ME either. I despise the heretical doctrine that they preach.

I've sat through SEVERAL hours of his BORING sermons and he is just...boring and an heretic.

I didn't learn a single thing from him at all. He is just BORING (and WRONG!)

I've wasted a LOT of time (well, not really wasted...for I can now smell this heretical stuff a bit easier) studying the heretic Ron Weinland and his defenders bore me. The whole "Armstrongism (theology)":
en.wikipedia.org...

...is a complete heresy.

Clearly, from your past posts, you are a defender of Ronald Weinland AND his teachings...which are heretical and have no ORTHODOXY behind them.

Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

Ronald Weinland is an heretic(k).

Unfortunately, doctorex, I know enough about what you believe (from your own words) that you would (almost?) CERTAINLY brand me as a heretic, so we REALLY don't have anything to say to each other.

reply to post by DHammer

only FEW Christians actually to go Heaven

please ignore the cheesy and corny aspect of the video try to focus on what its saying and tell me what you think

As I said in an earlier post, it is the verses that they leave OUT that makes the whole eschatology view they have suspect.

The video-makers make no answer for the thief on the cross next to Jesus.

Emphasis mine:

what you need to understand is that before Jesus, people were not required to walk the narrow way that we have to now, they had a different way to be saved, sacrificing lambs etc.

This (above) is "another gospel".

Jesus said:
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

...and yet you say there is a "different" way?

...you say, "before Jesus"...BEFORE?

Here is what Jesus says about "before":

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

reply to post by PreTribGuy


So you won't answer my question because of beliefs I have that really have nothing to do with what we are talking about? You are free to believe what you want, but you can't argue with plain text, such as what is said about the 144,000 and Israel now being a spiritual nation.

Originally posted by DHammer

I honestly don't know where to begin with this sort of nonsense.

dont




this thread was intended for Christians who understand what salvation is



i wont debate wether or not the Bible is true in this topic. i could easly answer your questions but im interested in something else right now

Now that's what I call putting down the hammer.........

Now to the topic, If we look at it this way from the beginning of man kind, there have been billions if not trillions since Adam. So a few in that respect would still equate to a large number of those that really believe.Indeed it will be a few, but that few has a greater number that we would think, and even a greater number in Hell..................

its incredible just how simple this passage is and yet its muddled with crap and opinions.

- jesus describes 2 roads.

first it is possible that jesus is only referring to people who believe in him in these verses but its speculation. those on the broad road could also include those who arent christian. the broad road is a metaphor for believing whatever is convenient for you, living a life free from the struggle of trying to please god, rather doing what you want when you want it. that type of path would be broad and spacious. is there any particular reason that this should be interpreted as only applying to christians?

- jesus pointed to ¨many¨ and ¨few¨.

to even try to speculate on percentages and numbers is ridiculas. jesus used terms that are very flexible. though only information that we can get from this is that those who are ¨saved¨ are the minority. whether that is a minority because its 49% or 0,000008% is just speculation. no human today is capable of judging one human, better yet a ¨multitude¨

- jesus nowhere mentions hell in this passage.

the artwork was really nice and all and adds this nice chill factor to the video, but hell is not mentioned. the 2 road lead to eternal life and DESTRUCTION. not eternal life of bliss and eternal life of torment. to destroy = to put out of existence.

- jesus showed us that the narrow path does require work.

you are right, alt of christians do feel that getting baptized is enough and that all they have to do is call on the name of god. but inorder to call on the name of god, one must know him and learn that name and what it means.

the book of james gets into this more talking about being doers of the word, not just hearers. it also says that god saves those he loves, implying that a close personal relationship is required.

Originally posted by doctorex
9 After this I beheld,

the part you are leaving out is that this phrase created a contrast.

they are 2 separate groups

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by doctorex
9 After this I beheld,

the part you are leaving out is that this phrase created a contrast.

they are 2 separate groups

I didn't leave anything out, I said this was directly after being TOLD the number of those to be sealed, I even quoted the verse. There is no contrast. Read it again. The angel says "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads". John then says he HEARS the number of those that are sealed, then directly after, he then says he BEHELD a great multitude that no man could count, but people forget that only a few verses earlier, John is TOLD the number, he doesn't count them.

The whole passage is about those who are sealed. Why would it even mention this sealing if it had nothing to do with the group discussed, a group John views directly AFTER HEARING the number of those who are sealed? It does not mention any contrast, suggesting they are separate groups. People simply read that into the passage, because they don't want to address the fact that through 6,000 years there has only been 144,000 worthy of being sealed, and there is a reason for this.

People are deceived into thinking they are following God, when they are not, for instance, do you observe the Sabbath on the day God demands? Do you shun Christianized pagan days such as Christmas and Easter, and observe instead God's Holy days, those observed by the Apostles even after the death of Jesus? Do you tithe? Do you know that God is not a trinity? Jesus said his flock was a little flock, and only few would find the way. He also said that only God can call them into that way. The truth is that 99% of what the world calls "Christianity" is false, based on pagan beliefs, and directly contradicting scripture, yet just as shown above by Pre-trip guy, if you don't follow "orthodoxy", people call you a heretic, yet by Jesus's' own words, orthodoxy itself must be incorrect, if only few find the true way. If you believe what the majority of "Christians" believe, then you are automatically wrong by default, but people don't like to hear that.

MATTHEW 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This is why people automatically assume the great multitude are a different group from the 144,000, when no such contrast is present in the scripture, because it scares them to think about what Christ said....

Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Surely not, right, there must be more than 144,000 called during this age? Think again, Jesus wasn't lying.

reply to post by doctorex

So you won't answer my question because of beliefs I have that really have nothing to do with what we are talking about?

This is not true. Your "beliefs" sound exactly the same as the Church of God eschatology (AND doctrine) perspective that I reject as heretical.

Just like I knew you were going to bring up the "do you observe the Sabbath on the day God demands?" doctrine in a later post. Bad doctrine corrupts the whole thing:

Gal 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

The whole "144,000" thing is an essential (eschatology) doctrine in the Church of God and it is one of the ways that they "beat their listeners/members into obedience" to their false doctrine.

The Church of God is correct in the matter of believing that we are living in the END time, but (most of) their doctrine and (most of) their eschatology is corrupt and heretical. (As a side note, I must admit that they are one of the very few protestant denominations that actually recognize the consumption of alcohol is not only permitted...but it was part of an OT tithe...it was ENCOURAGED by God to drink alcohol! Deut. 14:26)

The Church of God (Armstrong-ism) has used this "144,000" thing to force their members into swallowing the whole "bologna sandwich" they offer. They (rightly) recognize that we are living in the end times and then they offer some the promise of: "only-144,000-are-sealed-and-if-you-don't-agree-with-us-you-ain't-one-of-US-thing"...and it scares enough of them (hopefully not 144,001) into believing everything thrown at them (by the CoG) afterwards...even if the audience knows it isn't right. This is nonsense.

Again, Doctorex, I have been watching Ronald Weinland for many months...and I KNOW the "144,000" thing is essential to his doctrine.

You are free to believe what you want, but you can't argue with plain text, such as what is said about the 144,000 and Israel now being a spiritual nation.

Yes, I can argue...using plain text.

The rest of this is for all readers:

Eschatology is hard. I think that God made it that way on purpose.

The children of Israel, in the Old Testament, were promised a certain amount of land. This has not happened...yet.
Jesus says in Matthew that the meek shall inherit the earth.
(The children of Israel were never promised the entire earth.)

The Great Tribulation is primarily a week (Daniel made a prophecy about) regarding (BECAUSE OF) the nation of Israel.

OF COURSE there is a remnant! Romans says Christians were grafted in and to boast NOT against the olive tree. This whole idea of "lost tribes" and other garbage that the CoG espouses is nothing more than boasting AGAINST the NATURAL olive tree! It implies that God "gave up" on His promise to deliver them the land He had promised and went "spiritual"...instead of fulfilling His promise!

One last note:

If Israel is now a "spiritual nation" (only...)

...just try getting into Israel with a passport that only says, "Spiritual Israel citizen".

I'm tired of writing about this, Doctorex. I've spent more than ample time (not only writing this, but) reviewing the "Ronald Weinland" stuff and I reject it. I don't even wish to post a link to RW's websites or blogs or streaming audio....

He, and his sermons, are boring and it is not orthodox Christianity.

reply to post by PreTribGuy


If what the church of God teaches is heretical, show it through scripture, don't just simply say "it's heresy", because it's not what the majority believe.

reply to post by doctorex

Note in the verses that John is told the number, he doesn't count them. It doesn't say the number is what no man can count, but the multitude of people. Do you think you, or any man, could look on a group of 144,000 people and count them? No. John is told the number of them that were sealed, then he is shown them, and by his words he is obviously overwhelmed by the vision.

Doctorex is making the ridiculous argument that a crowd of 12 x 12,000 could not possibly be counted by men.

In Numbers 1:46 we see that a much larger number of the Hebrew children were counted. These were only men 20 years old or older:

Numbers 1:46 Even all they that were numbered were six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty.

Right there in the book of Numbers, we've got a MUCH larger amount of men being counted.

So...with just that verse it disproves the point Doctorex is trying to argue for.

Furthermore, where is "Job" listed here in the 144,000? Abraham? Noah? LOT? Of which tribe is LOT?

The plain wording in verse 9 not only signifies a different TIME(frame), but it also describes a different, but perhaps inclusive, multitude.

The 144,000 are being sealed before the tribulation, the great multitude in verse 9 is those who have come OUT of (AFTER) the great tribulation (Rev. 7:14)

The 144,000 are all virgins and they are all MEN:

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

They are also the FIRSTfruits...meaning there are MORE.

The 144,000 stands with the Lord Jesus on the mount of Zion, the great multitude are before the throne of God.

The 144,000 described in Rev 7 includes the tribe of Levi (the priests), but in 1 Peter 2:9, the Holy Spirit calls the Saints a royal priesthood:
1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Only those of the tribe of Levi were allowed to be priests in the OT and they received no promise of any land inheritance. Yet Jesus said the meek will inherit the EARTH.

The 144,000 are divided by tribes, the great multitude (of verse 9) says nothing about tribes.

Well...I've said enough to the readers here. I think I've proved my point.

reply to post by doctorex


Emphasis mine:

If what the church of God teaches is heretical, show it through scripture, don't just simply say "it's heresy", because it's not what the majority believe.

majority?

MAJORITY?

I can allow that I have misread what you've posted and you meant something else? But, as it stands, you have made an outrageous statement.

Majority of WHOM...Doctorex?

Majority of mankind? Of those who call themselves Christians? Of the CoG?

EVEN IF you meant only those in the CoG, you imply that those in the CoG don't even believe the doctrine that the CoG preaches!

The Church of God doctrine is laughable and is rejected by Orthodox Christianity.

Dear readers, the Church of God's (heretical) doctrine is based (has it's roots) upon something called "Armstrongsim":

en.wikipedia.org...