Holy crap this has to be one of the best poems I've ever read!

Well Lupe I've never agreed much on your political views....they are too childish, indeed that's what happens when your government "babies" you

Iraq is a problem mostly to Iraqis, but has the most potential to devestate the world, it must be delt with.

Our administration contrary to what many liberals say, is pretty damn good, I'm not being oppressed or whipped by the chains of Empire...no one is...our economy hasn't blown to hell, because of the actions of this administration, no other.

Oh yes the death penalty......oh well I've just had an Idea of how to solve that...

I say, instead of capital punishment we practice DEPORTATION....ship them all to Europe to live their lives in exile, but not in prisons (Meaning you can't touch them...if they kill again, we can only deport them again to other towns in europe)

Oh and Lupe_101 you're not very good at reading poetry if you believe any poem needs a "rythm" or proper rhyming...or else Hikus would be little piles of dog doodoo.

The reason this poem is so "damn" good, is because of the Message it so PERFECTLY gets across.

Most poems do not "perfectly" get across anything, and are just nice to listen to.

And most modern poetry does suck, because it has NO obvious message, NO message when you've thought about it for 5 hours strait, it simply has a bunch of words thrown together, that means only something to the obscure individual who spouted that drivel, and the obscure history of his obscure life.

Sincerely,
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[Edited on 10-1-2003 by FreeMason]

Actually, I believe the country with the most power to devastate the world- that is, the one with the most nukes, the one which has a record of dropping them on cities, the one with the religious, militant leader who took power with dubious legality- well, that's America.

You're not being oppressed? Great.
No one is? Ha, ha. Let me recommend www.morons.org... and www.humorisdead.com... for an impressive listing. Were you actually aware that you no longer have Fourth Amendment rights? web.morons.org...

On the poetry issue, Haikus are possibly the most structured and limited form of poetry in the world. They also tend to not have messages, and just be nice. And yet, they don't suck. Astonishing.

I tire of the stupid banter "America has nukes, they threaten the world". America never has threatened the world. Ever...but a mad dictator in a backwards nations with nukes, THAT threatens the world.

Haikus, are meant to make you think.

And you gave no proof of people being oppressed in America, good going Gryphon, to you and all you frightened panicy conspiracy theorists whom think there is no Democracy left...and can't seem to understand a simple poem, that more or less points out that ALL your problems, are not because of a "lack of democracy" but because of your lack of faith, and duty.

Sincerely,
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I didn't say America threatened the world. I said they had the most power to devastate the world. There's a large difference. I could get snide about the 'mad dictator' issue, but that's being done to death in other threads.

I would rather say haikus are meant to make you feel. As are many modern abstract poems. They don't all suceed, obviously. Poetry, like all mediums that focus on evoking emotion, is very personal. The simplest solution, as always, is if you don't like it, don't read it.

Proof?
I gave two links to sites that are devoted to reporting oppression and general idiocy, mainly in America, and one specific link to a article detailing how a court has ruled it's okay to violate the Fourth Amendment.

Apparently that's insufficient proof. Maybe you never liked the Fourth Amendment anyway. Fair enough. Here is a link to a article describing how Yaser Hamdi, a US citizen, was detained indefinitely without being allowed access to an attorney. www.wsws.org...
A search on the name Yaser Hamdi on Google will bring up numerous pages devoted to the subject. There you are; a man denied his rights. I think that constitutes being oppressed. Therefore, I believe this disproves your claim no one is being oppressed.

I didn't make any comment on the poem 'The Ragged Old Flag.' However, as you have accused me of being unable to understand it (while classifying me as a frightened, panicky conspiracy theorist. Possibly a bit quick with the labelling there?) I can only say that my interpretation of it was rather different.
I didn't get blame from that poem. That poem used the flag to represent America as a whole, and pointed out that although it had been battered, torn and involved in scandals, that didn't make it less valuable. That its value wasn't in what it was- cloth or real estate, respectively- but what it stood for. Freedom, truth, justice, equality. And in the last stanza in particular emphasizes the fact that what makes America valuable is the value that is placed on it by Americans. That while Americans care for it and guard it and are proud of it, it will always have value, no matter who tries to drag it through the mud.

I don't think the structure's great, and some of the rhymes are forced. But I certainly appreciate the sentiment. For me, a greater patriotic poem is Sir Walter Scott's Breathes There The Man, as it does not just get its message across, but is beautifully phrased and is a pleasure to read aloud.

Please don't tell me I blame all my problems on democracy. Please don't tell me I lack faith and duty. These are not things you know.

And- ALL my problems? I feel you're over-generalizing there. Two months ago I lost the sight of an eye through a retinal detachment. Are you suggesting Uncle Sam slapped me upside the head for a lack of faith?




Breathes there the man with soul so dead
Who never to himself hath said,
This is my own, my native land!
Whose heart hath ne'er within him burned,
As home his footsteps he hath turned
From wandering on a foreign strand!
If such there breathe, go, mark him well;
For him no minstrel raptures swell;
High though his titles, proud his name,
Boundless his wealth as wish can claim,
Despite those titles, power, and pelf,
The wretch, concentred all in self,
Living, shall forfeit fair renown,
And doubly dying, shall go down
To the vile dust from whence he sprung,
Unwept, unhonored, and unsung.

You sure expressed your ignorance back there, please read my post, and you will see, that what you took as a direct insult to YOU, was merely an interpretation of mine of this poem's message to everyone.

Perhaps the reason you took it so personally is that you have a reason to feel insulted by its message? Perhaps you indeed know less of Duty and faith to this nation, than you so claim?

Sincerely,
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can't seem to understand a simple poem, that more or less points out that ALL your problems, are not because of a "lack of democracy" but because of your lack of faith, and duty.

You used the phrase 'points out'. Not 'says'. 'Says' means this thing is stated, and could be true or false. 'Points out' means the thing is there. One points out a solid fact, as is evident by the word point. You point at something that is definitely there. You cannot, in proper English usage, point out something that is untrue.
If this was a genuine mistake, then I accept your apology and suggest you choose your words more carefully to avoid such misunderstandings.

Perhaps you indeed know less of Duty and faith to this nation, than you so claim?

Sadly, this comment is equally insulting, which leads me to believe it's deliberate.
It's also inaccurate. I did not claim either faith or duty. I merely requested that you do not make assumptions about the subject. These are things you do not know, insofar as they relate to me. My faith is private, and my duty my own.

Will you be addressing the other four points of yours I replied to, or are you bored of them now?

No the last quote is a direct result of your saying the same to me!

And I paraphrase in saying that you told me in a latter post that I had not knowledge of faith nor duty.

The first quote, I am not so sure that it is a "typo" or wrong word usage, I'll not appologize but rather say if you are to stoop so low as to attack ones grammar than you are truly not worthy of conversing with.

What I've said 3 times upon this account, is that this poem points to a crucial problem in america, and you stand in the way of that vision by saying "America has nukes" and that you took personal offense at my pointing out this fact, when this fact is in no way a personal offense to you, even if you so saw it as such.

Sincerely,
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Sincerely,
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Originally posted by FreeMason
No the last quote is a direct result of your saying the same to me!

Where? I've re-read my posts and not found anything like that. Please provide me with the quote that offends you.

And I paraphrase in saying that you told me in a latter post that I had not knowledge of faith nor duty.

Again, please be more specific. The only mentions in my posts of faith and duty are asking you not to comment on mine. I've never mentioned yours.

The first quote, I am not so sure that it is a "typo" or wrong word usage, I'll not appologize but rather say if you are to stoop so low as to attack ones grammar than you are truly not worthy of conversing with.

I have no problem with misspelling or bad grammar, as long as I can understand stand what the writer means. In this case, you meant one thing, but according to the rules of grammar I know, said something else. When you clarified your point, I said that was fine and asked you to be a little more careful picking your words, so I could understand what you meant I don't think that constitutes an attack.

What I've said 3 times upon this account, is that this poem points to a crucial problem in america, and you stand in the way of that vision by saying "America has nukes" and that you took personal offense at my pointing out this fact, when this fact is in no way a personal offense to you, even if you so saw it as such.

No. I'm not actually that bothered by nukes. I just corrected you when you said Iraq had the most power to devastate the world. America does. Didn't say they would. I don't see how preferring accuracy makes me an obstacle to America's vision. In fact truth is often a component part of that vision.

So... what you're saying, as far as I can see, is that *you're* not insulting me, this poem is insulting me. You're just agreeing with the poem. You're really not being very clear about what you mean.

Originally posted by Lupe_101
thats simply not true.

Most Brits love america, they like americans, and they enjoy aspects of american culture, food, hollywood etc

what most of them don't get however is the US's seeming inability to self depricate, as this is the source of much of british humour and culture, the US tend to come off as crass brash and a little dumb.

Bush is pretty much hated, and we don't support your war with Iraq or indeed the way your fighting your war on terror, but with the exception of US foreign policy, the current administration and a few of your more conservative aspects, christianity, death penalty, gun law, the US is regarded as a fairly pleasant place, we certainly like you more than the germans french or Italians.

Hey Lupe, leave England and come to the mainland.You'll see what the peoples thinks about the USA and England. In europe mainland, peoples do not like the USA and the Great-Britain ( commonwealth include).

They are all to much socialists and communists !

In fact, they are all jealous from the US power !

Bull#.
I wish people would get off this "jealousy" trip.
you can apply it to countrys where the standard of living sucks but frankly we're all pretty well off in Britain, we may have hoiked up petrol prices but the average joe isn't jealous of the US.

on the subject of poetry I stand by what I said earlier, I'm a published writer, you can borrow books of my poetry from the british poetry library, I've been nominated and have won awards for both prose and poetry and I edit a friggin poetry magazine that you can buy in several good book shops. I'm fully aware of most forms of poetry and feel I'm pretty good at judging the good from the bad (I have to be, I get sent a lot of # poetry for submission) I don't judge the ragged old flag on its rhythm and rhyme because I feel these are important aspects of all poetry, I judge it on those aspects because those are the aspects the poem utilises. and it utilises them badly.

Sorry its just not a very good poem, and I'd reject it in my mag for several reasons.

1: It is a rhyming poem but the rhymes are forced and it often restructures itself in order to make a rhyme work.
2: Its designed around a basic structure but syllabically the poet couldn't get it to fit and creates rhythmic "hiccups" simply because they cant find better ways to say what they are trying to get accross.
3: the subject matter is overly sentimental and specifically designed to appeal to a segment of society, it is not universal, it is, in many ways, propaganda and will not be published.

again I suggest you simply look at more poetry.

Originally posted by Lupe_101
Bull#.
I wish people would get off this "jealousy" trip.
you can apply it to countrys where the standard of living sucks but frankly we're all pretty well off in Britain, we may have hoiked up petrol prices but the average joe isn't jealous of the US.

Lupe, I wasn't speaking about GB. I was speaking about europe mainland ( France, Spain, Germany, Belgium.... ).

It's not propoganda, propoganda or to propogate is to lie in the most blunt way of putting it.

And this poem is not a lie and I don't see where you see these "rhythmic hiccups" and forced rhyms but maybe that's because in my head it goes perfectly with the "southern folk music" tunes...

Sincerely,
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