Grammar Equals Intelligence?

reply to post by Pandapple


While I can see your point and can respect it as well as your opinion, you have got to admit, it makes it difficult as Hell to take someone seriously, if you have to struggle to read their words, when incorrect structure of a sentence as well as punctuation is off.

Can you honestly say that this doesn't affect your ability to take it seriously? I've been to Australia three times, and I know some brilliant Australian people all over that wonderful nation, but when it came to spelling, grammar, diction, as well as writing skills, knowing they could not spell properly as well, makes it difficult when reading a hand written letter from them. I can say the same exact thing about America here, I've seen people who were forty years old, intelligent as a College Professor, yet since they were a highschool dropout at 9th grade, couldn't put together a proper thought on paper.

I wasn't picking specifically on Australia, but since I saw you were an Aussie, I thought I'd mention it as well as America. I do not attack people, let alone about their grammar on ATS, but if I see the opportunity to say something in private, I do so in order to assist them in better presenting themselves.

Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by greeneyedleo

 

Exactly, I can challenge anybody here when it comes to my native language, but when it comes to English I can not.

So, I am at disadvantage.

The quality of your English doesn't suggest it is your second language! Were you taught two languages from birth? That makes quite a difference.

Yes People place way too much emphasis on the puncuation and seems to be the older generations that it infuriates.

There have been studies as to why it effects the older generations perhaps bcause it was beaten into them, argh the good old days of english education.

All I can say from a communications point of view is that the message is not lost ,not how that message was written.

reply to post by Pandapple

The reason people attack others in this way is because they did not like what was written. Usually, it's done out of fear because all anger originates from some underlying fear.
Obviously, it's the only way a lot of people can deal with differing thoughts and opinions of others. It's just a lack of emotional maturity.
No amount of schooling can substitute for wisdom/truth. For these qualities change from awareness to awareness.
Don't allow yourself to be drawn into such behavior. If I read a post and it starts in that direction I just go to the next one, for obviously the writer isn't writing anything worth reading.

Use of grammar holds my attention longer. If I have to read something repeatedly to find out what it says, I lose interest. The ATS poster who does not use decent grammar is one of the following:
1. English is a second language. I know it is tough typing in another language, but at least these people are trying to communicate with English speaking people.
2. Unintelligent. There. I said it.
3. A charlatan. One who is trying to act as if they were too busy to type clear English to convince the reader of a fake situation of theirs. "I am a Alien cuz I write bad". Yes.... it happens.
4. Overly emotional about a topic. This is an easy way for someone to not use decent grammar. On instances like this, I politely u2u the writer for clarification and to help them get their message across if either #1 or #2 are the case.
5. They choose not too. This means that the author does not respect the intended audience enough to clearly state the content, or that there is no intended audience at all.
6. As a joke or a use of poor language to express an idea involving the rubbish grammar.

Grammar does not equal intelligence, but an intelligent use of grammar shows intelligence, and credibility.

Hey, I noticed that no one has mentioned that there are several different types of intelligence.
Just a couple are music and math. They use different parts of the brain.
There are others of course like "language" I'm sure.
You can't measure intelligence by one standard. There are catagories of intelligence is what I'm saying.
I imagine that grammar and spelling are a measure of some catagory of intelligence. Not my catagory, that is for sure. (I would have used that's but I wasn't sure if that was right and I didn't want that one poster to come down hard on me.)
So those of you that say it "is" a measure of intelligence are right. But of course just useful to measure one catagory but not to the exclusion of other areas.

....So, I wish I had the study or the source that clearly explains the different catagories of intelligence, but there are. You can be a tard in one or more catagories and a genius in one or more. Of course you could be a tard in all catagories and such is life. (maybe I am remembering this from some college psychology class back in the late 80's????)

My grammar, punctuation and choice of words is sometimes a little lacking, but that doesn't mean I'm totally stupid.

A little perhaps.

But not totally

Seriously though, what does it matter?

It's not a grammar rodeo.

As long as the post makes sense and has something to say, that's pretty much all I care about

ohh, I forgot something else.
I just love to read postings from people who have mastery of our language. It is smooth and makes my brain feel warm and fuzzy.

I also found that one posting about the Cambridge study that was written with only the first and last letter in the right place, cool. I breezed through it and thought I was going to be told that if you can read this you have a learning disability. I mean I didn't hesitate on a word and my brain didn't say WTF at all.

One last thing, The most important thing I need from a posting is that I can get a sense of the person who is writing it. The words, grammar, and spelling often give me a clue. I can usually tell the difference between a young kid and someone whose native language isn't english. It is really easy to miss sarcasam or frauds if you focus merely on the postings content or message.
So, grammar and spelling is important in identifying who you are and whether what you actually say is going to be accepted or vetted more.

I have a good example of this, it happened just yesterday. The member ObamaMomma wrote that "she" would be one of those people rioting if Obama didn't get elected. They used consistently poor grammar and spelling to the point I strongly suspected this was some white racist trailer living dude from West Virginia. Just from the grammar and spelling. This was even before I noticed that he just joined yesterday too. If you see some of his other postings you will see that I am almost 100% positive that I am right about him.
So.......spelling and grammar is important, it can be used to form "perceptions" of who you are. It is a measure of a "catagory" of intelligence.

reply to post by Res Ipsa


Personally speaking, and no offense intended, I'd be a little wary of judging someone by the way they post - I've known people who post out of character.

For instance, a chinese guy I knew who posted (on another site) like a jamaican rastafarian.

I understand where you're coming from, but I think it's dangerous territory to make judgements like that.

I mean, this is the web, and you can be whoever you want to be and invent a false persona in order to elicit a specific response.

I hope that makes sense, and it's not a criticism, just my tuppence worth

Res Ispa..

Just jumping in here with a couple of points that caught my eye...language making you feel all warm and fuzzy. I think I mentioned this earlier...kinda comforting for me, and I agree totally. I'm reading Tolstoy's Resurrection at the moment, and it's like a different Universe. His mastery of not only the language, but the details of observation is quite incredible.

And maybe that's the point we're missing. You mentioned that there are different types of intelligence...quite true. Maybe a talent for grammar and spelling is indicative of a detail conscious intelligence that will notice the little things in any situation, not just language? Just a thought...

Originally posted by shadow watcher
I'm not hyper-critical over grammar.
What really bothers me is 'l33t speak'.
If a post is riddled with this kind of text then, yes, I will skip it entirely.
When someone has something to share and takes the time to put it into writing, why degrade it's quality with this gaming style of shorthand?
It does not matter the quality of the thought if the way to convey it looks like a 10 year old wrote it for you.

Actually what bothers me is that that "l33t speak" bothers you, and others.
Who cares......

You know what really bothers me?

When I come to this forum looking for fun things to read about, I see all this hate towards everyone, from everyone. It's always flaming on this forum, and many other forums.

[edit on 21-6-2008 by krestan]

My mind is so complex my sentences come out all mixed.... back to topic anyways yes people judge others on simple things such as spelling and grammar, but these factors are not a true indication of intelligence as we all know.

reply to post by Pandapple


Maybe there's a certain laziness....maybe it's the advent of text-messaging....and a bit of youngsters mixed in....

Shoot! Spell-check is free!!!!

Anyway, the three commonly mis-used homonyms that I have seen lately are: 'There', Their' and 'They're' (which is actually a compound....a contraction of 'They' and 'are'....)

'Nuf said.....

EDIT....oh, nevermind, what's the point? Today would have been my Dad's Eightieth Birthday..... I'm gonig to go take a nap.....

[edit on 6/21/0808 by weedwhacker]

Originally posted by budski
reply to post by Res Ipsa

 

Personally speaking, and no offense intended, I'd be a little wary of judging someone by the way they post - I've known people who post out of character.

For instance, a chinese guy I knew who posted (on another site) like a jamaican rastafarian.

I understand where you're coming from, but I think it's dangerous territory to make judgements like that.

I mean, this is the web, and you can be whoever you want to be and invent a false persona in order to elicit a specific response.

I hope that makes sense, and it's not a criticism, just my tuppence worth

My friend, we do this everyday and it is necessary. The danger lies in whether we take "perception" to be the ultimate truth of the matter. "perception" of somone is a tool, it is a starting point.
If some dude is walking towards me in gang looking clothes should I challenge this "perception" by continuing towards them and hoping that my "perception" was wrong? If someone wearing a ski mask in August walks into a bank should I ignore my "perception" and go about my banking business instead of making my way towards the door?

Of course we can't use our "perceptions" of someone to create a detailed narrative of who that person is, but my friend, we would be foolish to ignore it.

I believe that perceptions of people should be fluid. With every bit of new information we get, we should adapt our perception of the person accordingly. But the ignorant would rather try and jam a square peg in a round hole if it can comport with the original perception some how. Thats how we get racists. They love their square pegs.

Look how many people still believe Obama "Hussien" is a Muslim. "well the name sounds Muslim" uh, sir, he isn't Muslim..."well his name sounds Muslim" yeah, uhhhh, he isn't Muslim and never was..."well his name sounds Muslim...must be a Muslim...I don't like Muslims....they..they...attacked us on 9/11...every last one of them did this to us"
These people have an endless supply of square pegs.

I size people up as quick as I can and I adapt just as quickly. The better you can do this, the quicker communication is understood and it minimizes miscommunications. (Try this with a customer service person sometime, the quicker you can figure out a way to get them to empathize with you the better your chances and getting your issue resolved. To get them to empathize you need to make some quick perceptions on what that person might have in common with your situation, what kind of person they are and what would that type of person relate to.)

Oh, that is just too long of a way to explain this. How about the successful con artist or scam artist. They make a quick perception of someone and exploit it for nafarious goals. Now use that same skill for "good" and you can facilitate communication.

So, in my situation with ObamaMomma, instead of me trying to understand some angry black woman, I "perceived" it was a racists white kid and jumped on him right away. I'm not afraid to apologize if I was wrong, but I wasn't. Now lets say I didn't jump him. A lot of readers on that thread would think that there are some angry black people that are going to take to the streets and destroy stuff if Obama doesn't get elected. How many people would they have told about this as if it were the gospel truth? I called this fraud out based on "perception" using spelling and grammar to do so. (if I would have been wrong, I would eat crow and be pleased to do so)

reply to post by Res Ipsa


OK - I was talking generalities rather than specifics.

I understand your sense of self preservation, but IMO it could maybe take a better form

Peer review is an area where it's easy to be over critical - but singling out some one really isn't the way to go IMO.

A personal issue should really be sorted out in private, away from the main boards

Grammar and spelling are important.
Using your Word program to write your posts sure helps, otherwise typos & other errors are bound to happen. I find myself spelling phonetically. I frequently do this on purpose. I feel that English spelling vs its pronunciation is really mucked up and want to set a precedent to change some of it.

Those who enjoy doing message boards should find it an exercize in attaining excellence. If English is not your first language you can learn just by following the example of others. I'll bet you can tell the writings using good grammar from those that do not. Also, you should be able to feel free to ask if you have done it correctly.

Originally posted by caitlinfae
Eventually, I realised that it was their way of trying to place themselves above me in the only way they could see how, and it was a response to my own very creative talents.

All in all, they are best ignored, as far as I'm concerned.

Maybe he was just trying to help you with your grammar.

Granted providers of constructive criticism can at times appear to be patronizing you, the value of their advice remains. Focus on the message, not on the methodology.

[edit on 21-6-2008 by BattleSchoolCapt]

Originally posted by budski
reply to post by Res Ipsa

 

OK - I was talking generalities rather than specifics.

I understand your sense of self preservation, but IMO it could maybe take a better form

Peer review is an area where it's easy to be over critical - but singling out some one really isn't the way to go IMO.

A personal issue should really be sorted out in private, away from the main boards

Now what if I took what you were saying as a generality rather than you politely saying you find me using "dude" as an example of being in poor taste? I could have taken it that way. It isn't that you were being very cryptic but I could have been one of those people that thought they didn't do anything objectionable so it couldn't be refering to anything specific.

But I have a reasonable perception of who you are and what you meant and how you meant to say it.

I also have to agree with you. Even if I don't think he cares because we have exchanged postings it does or did border on being "perceived" as vindictive or even petty if not just plain inappropriate, at least standing in your shoes I can see that.

The examples I used did reak of "self preservation." but I thought I also pointed out that it facilitates accurate communication. Our exchange is yet again another good example. You didn't come right out and say. "hey, Res, outing dude like that isn't cool, you should u2u him if you have a problem with him" You didn't come out and say that. I had to "perceive" what you were saying by what I know about you, and what I know about you is from your use of "grammar" and "spelling" and the way you arrange your words.

My "perception" wasn't used for self preservation, per se, it was used to understand your message clearly rather than understanding it in some general terms, which of course would have missed the point entirely.

(oh, and honestly, it was just the perfect example that popped into my head, I have no axe to grind with him or anyone, but you are or were right I should have considered how it would be "perceived")

reply to post by Res Ipsa


The use, idea, conception and expression of an individual's words is one of the hardest things to realise, if it's not your words.

I understand what you mean, but I don't agree with some of your points.

Especially your assertion that you can know people from the way they write.

I'll accept that you can know some people from their input, but I refute the suggestion that it can be applied across the board.



[edit on 21/6/2008 by budski]