non-flame questions to liberal americans

Originally posted by WyrdeOne

How about the right to assemble peacefully? How about the right to vote (still in effect in non-swing states, admittedly)? How about the rights of the states to regulate their own affairs without the intrusion of the federal government?

All still in full effect, as far as I can tell.

Really, and you are leading protests so you know this for a fact? IF you say yes then we will call BS! You have your head in the sand my friend because this is a fact.

I'm a conservative as well. Your problem (ybab hsur) is your trying to talk reason and logic to people who do not live by it. You will continue to get backlashed because that is what liberals do. When they cannot answer a question they yell and call you names. Liberalism is a mental disorder. Your mentality is based in sensible discussion and facts. Libs, as I see in your post do not have facts but spew emotion and hate as their facts. It is called dilusion. No matter how much you try to talk logic it will not penetrate their hate and wanton laziness. So stay strong and continue your search for the truth but do not take other opinions and make them yours..stay original and think for yourself.

reply to post by ybab hsur


i'll take a shot at those questions


1.hmm..rights taken away? it's not really about that imo...it's the big picture where the government is all about control.


2. Iran's president seems like a bad guy from what i have heard,but i don't know the guy so i dunno.it could be media spin or maybe he's just BS'ing to get attention


3.war is the lose...it's like a giant chess game for governemnts to play.killing humans is played out and is getting old.i don't know the whole story,but from what i hear wars were/are a complete scam.


4.sadaam was a bad guy and needed to go along with some of his followers,there could have been another way of doing it,but i don't know.We can NOT let Iran or anyone else have nukes....all nukes need to be banished/eliminated asap.before our planet hits the Photon belt.


5.Sadaam was a major bully straight out of the movies,no way he was going to let anyone in to mess with anything he was doing..



edit= i think the moral of the story is do not let evil people run your country and then there shouldnt be any reason to fight.

[edit on 29-5-2008 by Skipper1975]

[edit on 29-5-2008 by Skipper1975]

Originally posted by ybab hsur
Okay, ill take your advice and concentrate on one.

What im absolutely flabergasted by is this "slavery is still alive in the united states" because i'd really love to hear it, im not opposed to it, but i've never heard anyone say it before, even coming from discussions with black people about race.

Oh - and no - you dont have a constitutional right to a private phone call. As i said, the phone companies are not owned by the govt, and if you actually read your disclosure rights in your agreement with your phone company - it expresses that clause in there.

You didn't read the post right. Slavery is ALIVE AND WELL in the world. Much more so than at any time in the early America's.

Yes, you do have a constitutionally amended right to a private phone call. It's called a LAW. Since phones weren't around when the constitution was written it would be silly to think it would be covered. Amendments and laws are passed afterwards to add in as we develop. I guess you are going to force someone to dig it up but it is a law. That is why the phone companies are in a panic right now with all of the wiretapping and such that came to light. They have since stopped allowing it because they have been threatoned with lawsuits because they VIOLATED THE LAW!!!

Originally posted by -Reason-

As for the wiretapping... dose anyone on here know any American citizen that has had their phone illegally wiretapped? I didn't think so. I'm sure someone will come out of the wood work and say they heard "heavy breathing" during their call.

Give me a break. Us cops still have to go through all the same process as before, all the Patriot Act did was clear out some of the red tape. And isn't there something out there about airwaves being public domaine. And is it illegal if it was passed by Congress?

Lastly... you libs out there need to understand that just because a person lives in the United States of America doesn't mean they are granted, unconditionally, the same rights as a US citizen.

No, the airwaves are not all public domaine but I understand what you are saying. However, many phones that are 'tapped' are land lines. They do not travel over the airwaves (well, most long distance ones do at one point or another but I think/hope you get what I am saying). As for cellphones, well, like you say, the air waves are 'mostly' public domaine.

And I just want to take this opportunity to thank you for your service.

reply to post by dariousg

Originally posted by dariousg

Originally posted by WyrdeOne

How about the right to assemble peacefully? How about the right to vote (still in effect in non-swing states, admittedly)? How about the rights of the states to regulate their own affairs without the intrusion of the federal government?

All still in full effect, as far as I can tell.

Really, and you are leading protests so you know this for a fact? IF you say yes then we will call BS! You have your head in the sand my friend because this is a fact.

Prove that your right to vote has been taken away by Bush.

Prove that you cannot assemble peacefully.

Prove that states rights are non-existent.


Don't just babble that "You have your head in the sand ". That means nothing to me.

reply to post by dariousg

Originally posted by dariousg

However, here is what I can come up with without digging:

• Freedom of speech: He instated a new proclamation where one is not allowed to question the actions of the president and his administration when it comes to this war and 911. If you do you risk having all of your assets seized by the government.

You said you came up with this without digging?

I disagree... you must have really dug in the bottom of the barrel to come up with such blatant bullcrap as that.

Show me the proclamation.

reply to post by jsobecky


Umm okay well I was at a PEACEFUL protest a couple monthss ago. Guess what? I got thrown in a cell for a night. They never told me what I did wrong or why I was in there, but I can most certainly tell you that it was a peaceful protest. The cops showed up and took me and another person and threw us in jail.

So don't tell me we still have the right to peaceful assembly because from my experiences we don't.

reply to post by theendisnear69


Oh, OK, well, that's good enough for me! Just cuz you said so! I don't need no proof or nuthin' - your word is gold!

1. Habeus Corpeus , dont have that any more

2. Your second point is ridiculous so I won't try to refute it. Implying that someone cannot say something that is hateful or unpopular is censorship. The founding fathers of this country made it quite clear that it was most important to protect unpopular speech.

3. I believe that working the first 4 months of the year to pay my tax burden is a form of slavery because I dont get to enjoy 1/3 of the fruits of my labor because some one thinks they know better how to spend my money than me.

German Enabling Act of 1933 is almost identical to the Patriot Act, so by fighting this war on terror we have allowed our leaders to put into place a doctrine of fascism. Hitler said it was justified to combat terrorism by communist. Bush said it was justified to combat terrorism by radical Muslims. This doesnt really address your question, but I felt it was important to mention.

4. I do agree that we new that Saddam had WMD. Who do you think sold Saddam the chemical and biological weapons. Its not like we had any contact with Saddam or anything. We sold him WMD to help him fight the Iranians. The US Administration was pissed at Iran for overthrowing the military dictator known as the Shaw and for the taking over of the US embassy. The CIA also trained Osama Bin Laden back in the1980's to counter the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. I dont think that the CIA should be given any credit for anything but making a bad situation worse.

5. Israel doesnt allow UN inspectors in to look at there Nuclear weapons program. Why would anyone else in the region do the same.

I am very conservative. I do not believe in liberal ideologies.

reply to post by jsobecky


You don't have to believe me, but i'm sure there are tons of videos on youtube that show protesters getting beaten and dragged away for protesting.

Why don't you go to a protest and experience it yourself. The way the gov treats protesters is sickening.

reply to post by ybab hsur


Are you talking about CIA . .hahah a.. i couldnt stop my laugh
Intelligence reports ... another laugh .. FBI , CIA , NSA . nothing is owned by US govt . and you go to war on CIA's reports ...

All the intellingence reports are CREATED based on personal use by the govt.

Govt changes the law to prevent itself from people , not to ease and help people.

reply to post by ybab hsur


1.) Give me ample examples of which rights of yours have been stripped by bush since 9/11

It takes more then the president to strip rights away however understanding the context of your question... Through bills passed since 9/11 and there ambiguity exercising freedom of speech may result in prosecution. The right to peaceful protest. Right of protection against improper search and seizure. Right of trial by jury. Right to a speedy trial. Right to civil trial by jury. Prohibition against cruel and unusual punishments.

These rights are the rights prescribed in the bill of rights. To understand how these rights have been stripped or modified please refer to the patriot act, HR 1955, Military Commission’s Act of 2006, the military tribunals bill S.3930, H.RES.1054, H.R.6054, H.R.6166, S.3861, S.3886, S.3901, S.3929, just to name a few.

Although not as significant and certainly not prescribed in the bill of rights I am no longer able to play online poker in the name of protection against terrorism

.


2.) How is Iran's president ahmenijad (sp?) not practicing hate speech when he's talking about Jews?

Ahmadinejad clearly exercises hate speech against Jews and homosexuals however in my humble option I believe our focus as Americans should be on the hate speech of our own government and not be distracted by the sound of the beating drums. When your house is on fire should you look for other fires to extinguish before extinguishing your own???

3.) Except for ending Slavery, Nazism, Fascism, and Communism.....
WAR HASNT SOLVED ANYTHING

from external
The U.S. Central Intelligence Agency estimates that 50,000 people are trafficked into or transited through the U.S.A. annually as sex slaves, domestics, garment, and agricultural slaves.

source loads of personal stories on the link but i also recommend you google "sex slavery america" if you want more info, there are 476000 hits, i'm sure you'll find something that should suffice as evidence.

communism, fascism and all that crap are still pretty healthy, nazi is just an abbreviation for the name of the fascist party in germany in the 30's, the national socialists. ideas don't die with people. the ideas behind the nazi's are just extreme conservatism, maybe you should do some research into the stated aims of the nazi party.

saddam, well he just wasn't right in the head, not that his allowing the weapons inspectors in or not made a blind bit of difference in the end. mr. blix was there, he left because america was about to commence blitzkrieg on the country, sorry, i meant shock and awe. it's all lies either way.

freedoms taken under bush are well documented, type "freedom bush", that'll give you 2.6 million hits in google, again, something in there might be worth reading.

the british intel was crap too, so what, don't you think a government should be lining the intel agencies up against a wall for allowing boys and girls to die because they made a cock-up? even if bush wasn't aware (yeah right) that the intel was shakey he should have at least locked up whoever was responsible for providing such a high level of incompetence. instead he keeps changing his story. it stinks, and anyone with the slightest bit of humanity should know it.

if i've missed something i'll get it later.

1.) Give me ample examples of which rights of yours have been stripped by bush since 9/11

There are no rights that are being striped.

2.) How is Iran's president ahmenijad (sp?) not practicing hate speech when he's talking about jews

I'm not touching that one. It's fairly obvious he is. And when the next genocide happens, you can say 'I told you so'.

3.) Except for ending Slavery, Nazism, Fascism, and Communism.....
WAR HASNT SOLVED ANYTHING

reply to post by ybab hsur


Any people who would surrender liberty in order to gain security will have neither; and deserve neither. Sounds to me that you want nothing but security, so have fun with no liberty!

Originally posted by ybab hsur
i am not flaming you - so do not flame me.

I am a conservative, i have been having other debates in other forums on other topics, and i have come up with a list of questions that the people i've been debating with refuse to, or cannot, answer. Again - no flames.

1.) Give me ample examples of which rights of yours have been stripped by bush since 9/11

2.) How is Iran's president ahmenijad (sp?) not practicing hate speech when he's talking about jews

3.) Except for ending Slavery, Nazism, Facism, and Communism.....
WAR HASNT SOLVED ANYTHING

reply to post by ybab hsur


First off communism is still very prominent. 2nd I think that Saddam should have been taken down because of his actions toward his people regardless of WMD's. 3rd I don't blame the CIA fact is theres a whole lot of desert in Iraq the bombs could be anywhere. 4th Bush hasn't actually stripped any laws that I can see with my own eyes, but I bet if a friend of mine and I for a week consistently talked about terrorism over the phone I'd be arrested regardless if it were a joke or not. I don't consider my self anything not even a liberal I consider myself a human being maybe everyone should take the same path and keep an open mind about everything; there should be no political class/ no democrat/ no republican/ no liberal/ no bull#.

Sounds like your a Bush fan Mr. Conservative. Wake up and take your blinders off!

Here are crimes committed by the 'Bush Administration':

1) Seizing power to wage wars of aggression in defiance of the U.S. Constitution, the U.N. Charter and the rule of law; carrying out a massive assault on and occupation of Iraq, a country that was not threatening the United States, resulting in the death and maiming of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, and thousands of U.S. G.I.s.

2) Lying to the people of the U.S., to Congress, and to the U.N., providing false and deceptive rationales for war.

3) Authorizing, ordering and condoning direct attacks on civilians, civilian facilities and locations where civilian casualties were unavoidable.

4) Instituting a secret and illegal wiretapping and spying operation against the people of the United States through the National Security Agency.

5) Threatening the independence and sovereignty of Iraq by belligerently changing its government by force and assaulting Iraq in a war of aggression.

6) Authorizing, ordering and condoning assassinations, summary executions, kidnapping, secret and other illegal detentions of individuals, torture and physical and psychological coercion of prisoners to obtain false statements concerning acts and intentions on governments and individuals and violating within the United States, and by authorizing U.S. forces and agents elsewhere, the rights of individuals under the First, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth and Eighth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

7) Making, ordering and condoning false statements and propaganda about the conduct of foreign governments and individuals and acts by U.S. government personnel; manipulating the media and foreign governments with false information; concealing information vital to public discussion and informed judgment concerning acts, intentions and possession, or efforts to obtain weapons of mass destruction in order to falsely create a climate of fear and destroy opposition to U.S. wars of aggression and first strike attacks.

8) Violations and subversions of the Charter of the United Nations and international law, both a part of the "Supreme Law of the land" under Article VI, paragraph 2, of the Constitution, in an attempt to commit with impunity crimes against peace and humanity and war crimes in wars and threats of aggression against Afghanistan, Iraq and others and usurping powers of the United Nations and the peoples of its nations by bribery, coercion and other corrupt acts and by rejecting treaties, committing treaty violations, and frustrating compliance with treaties in order to destroy any means by which international law and institutions can prevent, affect, or adjudicate the exercise of U.S. military and economic power against the international community.

9) Acting to strip United States citizens of their constitutional and human rights, ordering indefinite detention of citizens, without access to counsel, without charge, and without opportunity to appear before a civil judicial officer to challenge the detention, based solely on the discretionary designation by the Executive of a citizen as an "enemy combatant."

10) Ordering indefinite detention of non-citizens in the United States and elsewhere, and without charge, at the discretionary designation of the Attorney General or the Secretary of Defense.

11) Ordering and authorizing the Attorney General to override judicial orders of release of detainees under INS jurisdiction, even where the judicial officer after full hearing determines a detainee is wrongfully held by the government.

12) Authorizing secret military tribunals and summary execution of persons who are not citizens who are designated solely at the discretion of the Executive who acts as indicting official, prosecutor and as the only avenue of appellate relief.

13) Refusing to provide public disclosure of the identities and locations of persons who have been arrested, detained and imprisoned by the U.S. government in the United States, including in response to Congressional inquiry.

14) Use of secret arrests of persons within the United States and elsewhere and denial of the right to public trials.

15) Authorizing the monitoring of confidential attorney-client privileged communications by the government, even in the absence of a court order and even where an incarcerated person has not been charged with a crime.

16) Ordering and authorizing the seizure of assets of persons in the United States, prior to hearing or trial, for lawful or innocent association with any entity that at the discretionary designation of the Executive has been deemed "terrorist."

17) Engaging in criminal neglect in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, depriving thousands of people in Louisiana, Mississippi and other Gulf States of urgently needed support, causing mass suffering and unnecessary loss of life.

18) Institutionalization of racial and religious profiling and authorization of domestic spying by federal law enforcement on persons based on their engagement in noncriminal religious and political activity.

19) Refusal to provide information and records necessary and appropriate for the constitutional right of legislative oversight of executive functions.

20) Rejecting treaties protective of peace and human rights and abrogation of the obligations of the United States under, and withdrawal from, international treaties and obligations without consent of the legislative branch, and including termination of the ABM treaty between the United States and Russia, and rescission of the authorizing signature from the Treaty of Rome which served as the basis for the International Criminal Court.

Echo3Foxtrot, its refreshing to see other people from reality here in the twilight zone....


There is a very wise saying (found Here if you need reference material. it says

All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best

So i beg you to listen to me and put aside your blind hate for Bush and conservative values.

Is it more simple to say that there was a gigantic conspiracy from 9/11 so that we could invade Afghanistan to set a foothold in the middle east (which....we already had to begin with, hello Israel )

Then - from Afghanistan, launch a media assault on Iraq declaring that united nations weapons inpsectors (UN, not USA!!!! so you cant say it's because he dosnt trust USA) should be let into Iraq to ensure the safety of the region.

And why would the UN want this so bad?
Genocide
Crimes against Humanity
Liberal Proof of WMDs "You cannot defy the will of the world" This comes from your own liberal messiah - yet you continue to deny Bush the same confidence and tell me that im wrong???


From there, we give Saddam A LOT OF TIME to respond and comply with the UNITED NATIONS request of weapons inpsectors. president bush Issued this statement as a final stand against Saddam. But Saddam ignored it, and thus started Operation Shock and Awe. But really - this didnt happen right? You forget about all this history, right? We destroyed the buildings to get into afghanistan, so we could get into iraq, so Bush jr could satisfy his "daddy issues" and die a happy man?

Sounds pretty damned complex to me....

But im starting to ramble.

What sounds more "logical"?

A group of terrorist bastards who hate you, me, and everyone around us decide to hijack a plane and show us our frailness. We retaliate, are met with resistance, find out that Saddam (bording country..) has WMD's from intelligence agencies from all around the world....so we decide to attack after the warnings are issued.....Saddam delays so he can remove his weapons, and then the iraqi conflict beings. Liberals see their chance at the whtie house, because, quite frankly, if Bush comes out a hero in this, liberalism is dead for a few decades. So bash bush and Flip flop and continue to make it up as you go along.


Which sounds more logical?


Your tactics may have worked in a pre-internet time frame, but now that anyone has access to anything on the web, you cannot lie, because cameras never lie, and they catch you lying in lie after lie.


God Bless America!!!!





[edit on 29-5-2008 by ybab hsur]