One in Eight U.S. Biology Teachers Teaches Creationism

reply to post by wolfmanjack


Yes, so, because the religion of naturalism can set the definition of fact, it is fact? Guess what, ask a Christian...they will give you a boatload of "facts" about God and Jesus, too, as long as you let them set the definition of what a fact is.

The FACT stated is that we have fossils. Their dating is based on conjecture...their "evolution" is based on conjecture...what else listed there ISN'T based on conjecture?

Isochron is conjecture because the basis for the dating presumes a certain age. The "evolution" of organisms is based on some really screwed up thinking about sedimentary rock that there is ample science to disprove. For starters.

ok.. If you want to continue to debate this head over to the
www.abovetopsecret.com...
section of these forums..... This entire thread should have been put there anyways.

Quite frankly i will quote madnessinmysoul
from this thread www.abovetopsecret.com...

"because every argument for creationism and intelligent design has been soundly refuted"

I refuse to continue to try and explain reality to people who refuse to even step back and look at the evidence presented objectively. If you refuse to at least acknowledge that you MIGHT be wrong and take the time to read what others have to say then we have nothing more to discuss.



Cheers and good day

Here is what it all comes down to:

Evolution - this is a scientific theory

Creationism - This is a religious theory

In high school i was taught about the theory of evolution. I was not taught about the theory of creationism. The theory of evolution was part of what we learned because it had to do with the class. Creationism on the other hand is another subject and has no place in a Biology class.

If I was to take a class named world religion then I would certainly expect for Creationism to be something that was brought up. I wouldn't complain that the theory of evolution wasn't brought up because it has nothing to do with world religion.

This is school, we send children there to learn. If Christian parents have a problem with their children learning about a theory that conflicts with beliefs that their children were taught then what dose that tell you about your childes faith? This may be the first time I have said this but deny ignorance anyone?

[edit on 13-8-2008 by Styki]

nicely said styki

Btw if anyone else wants to debate , talk , actualy LEARN something about this issue there is a nice thread in the proper forum

Right here www.abovetopsecret.com...

Oh my... how many times does it need to be said?!

Evolution isn't a theory, it's a fact, we can observe it happening.

The theory is in HOW it does it, not if.


The theory of evolution is a theory of how we think species evolve... not if. We KNOW they evolve, we just haven't completely figured out HOW.

... for some reason the religious still can't understand the difference.

Interestingly, even the Vatican and the Pope concede that evolution is a fact. So any Christian person who thinks otherwise is at odds with the church.


notes.utk.edu...


www.smh.com.au...

[edit on 13/8/08 by Cthulwho]

reply to post by wolfmanjack


Did I once mention anything about creationism or ID? No. I was simply stating that evolution is a faith based theory as well. It doesn't matter how valid or invalid ID or creationism is, as my argument has nothing to do with their validity. Rather, I am attempting to address the fact that that naturalist faith based belief system concerning the origin and meaning of life is being MANDATED in a COMPULSORY education system. Something that the so-called "separation of church and state" was meant to prevent.

reply to post by Styki


the problem is, naturalistic or not, based on science or not, evolutionary science is based on assumptions and faith in scientists, not hard science. Hard science can be demonstrated consistently in repeatable experiments. Last I checked, no one had managed to do so with either evolution or creationism. So why are either of them being taught as facts???

I think what some people are confused about is that just because a consensus of scientists have decided to change the definition of science, facts and truth to fit their beliefs and agendas, it doesn't make it unassailable or valid, or, in fact, science.

reply to post by Cthulwho


And you all prove my point ever more, as you defend your belief system in the exact same way a Christian would. Exactly why it doesn't belong in a compulsory education system.

If we were talking university, you know what? That's a different matter, and it does have a place there. Though it should be held up to scrutiny for its innumerable fallacies rather than worshipped unquestioningly.

And I'll say it again: This has NOTHING to do with a science vs religion topic. This has to do with a faith-based belief system being taught in schools as fact. God doesn't have to be in the picture for something to be a religion. Ever hear of Confucianism?

Why is no one willing to even begin to address the issue I am trying to discuss? I DON'T CARE if you're a firm believer in evolution and the naturalistic religion. I'm trying to get some of you to acknowledge the difference between supposition, faith, consensus belief, and TRUTH. God knows (dare I use such a figure of speech in such company) that there is precious little truth to be found in the world anyone, and even fewer people who have any idea of how to find it.

Sorry if that seems a little angry, but you know...I feel like Im trying to debate a room full of parrots. I get memorized answers, not intelligent, thought-provoking discourse.

[edit on 8/13/2008 by saturnine_sweet]

I do not know any PHD research programe in Biology that is based on creation instead evolution. The scientiffical achievements in biology / microbiology , genetics etc is based on evolution. I am myself a Christian but it is really puzzeling to me where some US christians got the idea that God did not use evolution for example.All this from one presumtion that 1 day in genesis is 24 hours of our time. The Bible does not state this , there is no scientifical nor Bible evidence for the "instant" creation.
Guys, there are more genes digitised today in one day than all the first 10 years when the Human genome project started.Yet, everything supports evolution! Evolutionary biology is really promissing , and I still wonder why a "false" theory like evolution has so many commercial and industrial applications . So , for the "fast-track" creationists - what is the academic application of your way of explaining Creation? It would be interesting how this idea can be applied in the benefit of the society (i talk about direct applications in science )

regards, STY


[edit on 13-8-2008 by sty]

reply to post by wolfmanjack


Hey wolfman, you have issues with Christianity, obviously, but can you explain away the supernatural that even doctors CAN NOT REFUTE? This is black and white evidence of the power of God.

BUT I repeat once again, origins of man should NOT be taught in public schools…

As far as what the pope believes concerning evolution, who cares? I’m sure that he doesn’t believe it was an accident! To take God out of the picture is to take da Vinci out of the Mona Lisa… absurd.

www.youtube.com...

NEED PROOF? CHECK IT OUT!

BTW - Yes, it looks like we both have read about Einstein. He was an AGNOSTIC.


[edit on 13-8-2008 by apaulo]

Originally posted by apaulo
reply to post by wolfmanjack

 

can you explain away the supernatural that even doctors CAN NOT REFUTE? This is black and white evidence of the power of God.

Please provide proof of a supernatural occurence that cannot be refuted by doctors and how this occurence is irrefutable proof of God.

Edit:Aha I see your so-called proof in the above video. Wrong. Try again. That's only proof of a fraud, and that's putting it lightly. If you bought into that you need to reexamine your concept of reality.

[edit on 13-8-2008 by Gigatronix]

Originally posted by Gigatronix

Edit:Aha I see your so-called proof in the above video. Wrong. Try again. That's only proof of a fraud, and that's putting it lightly. If you bought into that you need to reexamine your concept of reality.


My friend, all I offered you was a key; you have to open the door.

I don’t want to stray too far from the subject matter, but my wife was healed of cancer, I have received numerous healings, I know a child who received his sight, plus I have personally witnessed numerous other supernatural events and occurrences.

I see these things because I believe. Even if you were to see them, you would not believe.

Originally posted by apaulo

Originally posted by Gigatronix

Edit:Aha I see your so-called proof in the above video. Wrong. Try again. That's only proof of a fraud, and that's putting it lightly. If you bought into that you need to reexamine your concept of reality.


My friend, all I offered you was a key; you have to open the door.

I don’t want to stray too far from the subject matter, but my wife was healed of cancer, I have received numerous healings, I know a child who received his sight, plus I have personally witnessed numerous other supernatural events and occurrences.

I see these things because I believe. Even if you were to see them, you would not believe.
If you say so. I can say I saw all kinds of fantastic things, it doesn't mean i really did. Maybe I thought I saw something fantastic, but in reality it was explainable by science. maybe I saw something and was so in awe of it that I attributed it's occurence to some invisible mythological being. What ever the case may be, if any of those were irrefutable proof of God as you claim, there would be no need for it to be refuted because everybody would believe it and there would be no debate.Don't let your psychological need for there to be a God override your judgement.

reply to post by Gigatronix


I'm not here to debate. If I were able to convince you that there is a God, someone could just as easily and as quickly convince you that there is not.

What is truely important here is respect. I respect your choice to believe what you think is a divine accident, but it doesn't belong in a public class room. It relates to the origins of man which is a part of religion.

All I want is to have that same respect given to those of us who do believe in the Creator. Despite our individual convictions and what we both hold as evidence to support our faith, it doesn't need to be taught in a mixed public enviorment. BUT if you are going to teach one, teach them both or none at all. PERIOD.

reply to post by Christian Voice


Logically speaking... that's funny considering creationism defies logic as well... I suppose parting the seas and talking snakes and walking on water are all logical ideas?
Creationism doesn't belong in science.

Originally posted by apaulo
reply to post by Gigatronix

 

I'm not here to debate. If I were able to convince you that there is a God, someone could just as easily and as quickly convince you that there is not.

What is truely important here is respect. I respect your choice to believe what you think is a divine accident, but it doesn't belong in a public class room. It relates to the origins of man which is a part of religion.

All I want is to have that same respect given to those of us who do believe in the Creator. Despite our individual convictions and what we both hold as evidence to support our faith, it doesn't need to be taught in a mixed public enviorment. BUT if you are going to teach one, teach them both or none at all. PERIOD.

I respect your choice in beliefs, absolutely. You will find that I am generally a middle of the road type of person, I will as quickly chastise an Atheist or Evolutionist as quickly as I would a Creationist. For me it's not about what you believe, it's how you relay that belief to others, and how you receive someone else's opinion. This is where I took issue with you, not that you believe what you do, but your choice of words and your choice of "proof". If that video reinforces your beliefs, that's fine with me. But to assert that the video and it's contents is irrefutable proof of god is absurd, in my opinion.

I agree that evolution and ID should be taught in college, as an elective, and not in public schools. The only problem with that is, USA and the UK are not the only countries that hold ToE to be the closest thing to truth. Most colleges and schools around the world believe ToE to be the closest thing to answer that we have. There are alot of scientific theories and philosophies that have it as a key component. If we do not teach our kids this science, we risk them falling even further behind in science and math than they already are. Whether we agree or not about the ethics of it is beside the point, India and China and other countries are blowing us away in the science and math department, and if we don't teach our kids the dominant science of the modern era, we risk a further decline.

reply to post by saturnine_sweet


Evolution is a theory, if a teacher is telling you it is a fact then they are wrong. In that case it would be called faith. It also depends on the type of evolution you are talking about.

Furthermore, creationism should never be presented as fact unless you are in a Christian church. On a religion level there are so many religions that Christian creationism could be debated against that it should never be presented as fact. Unless of course you attend a Christian college.

I do believe that it is important to learn. Along with major events in all widespread religions. It's just something that is good to know.

Not in the schools that I pay taxes to keep opened... I firmly believe that there is no man in the sky making souls and clamation dolls to be turned into living babies. It is this mentality that is keeping us in the dark ages, warring and killing our fellow man (no matter your denomination). With the tools and knowledege that man has accumulated, we should be teaching what is real... not fantasy. If you want to believe that some"one" created you, than that is your prerogative... and not what we have learned through science. Go to Sunday school and leave my kid alone! I am tired of this trite dialogue that keeps us from progressing as a species. The Council of Nicea was made to control peoples minds... not open them. Why don't they teach our kids about THIS in schools, might I ask?!! Because they don't want them to collectively think for themselves. They want a nation of obedient workers who fear the end of the world is coming in the form of the 4 horsemen of the apocolypse, so work hard and keep praying. This is what your leaders depend on to keep you in line.

Let me ask the creationists this multi-faceted question: Part 1) Why would a being create a whole planet of sentient beings whom he/it did not want to be progressive in knowledge? Part 2) Why after obtaining the "fruit of knowledge" would the creator impose an infinite punishment on those beings for actions occurring in a finite amount of time? Part 3) How can man have free-will, and God be the Alpha and Omega at the same time... in essence, if he already knows the story and has it planned (even the end), how can we assume free will?!?!

Until you can scientifically answer any of those questions, get your rhetoric out of my child's learning!!!

Good luck!!

Originally posted by apaulo
reply to post by wolfmanjack

 

Hey wolfman, you have issues with Christianity, obviously, but can you explain away the supernatural that even doctors CAN NOT REFUTE? This is black and white evidence of the power of God.

BUT I repeat once again, origins of man should NOT be taught in public schools…

As far as what the pope believes concerning evolution, who cares? I’m sure that he doesn’t believe it was an accident! To take God out of the picture is to take da Vinci out of the Mona Lisa… absurd.

I have No specific issues with any single religioun. What i do have issues with ignorance.. Organised Religion IS ignorance , They teach it, They propagate it. If the Vatican had its way only priests etc would be able to read and write. If organised religion has its way they would dictate to every living person on the planet what they can and can not do.

In truth Orginised religion is one of the most destructive and hate filled institutions ever to exist on the planet.

Case in point...
Aids is rampant in africa because the people there are told they will go to hell if they use condoms.

Case in point..
Millions die from ethnic cleansing

Case in point ..
Cruisades ..

Case in point..
Jews during WW2

Case in point
Multiple hate crimes in the US (And world) against Gay people

Case in point..
People are killed for breaking religious law (Mainly in muslim countries now.. But Christianity is just as guilty of doing it)

Case in point...
Beliefe in the afterlife convinced the Japanies to commit suicide etc..

Case in point..
Spanish inquisition

Case in point..
Salem Witch trials.. Witch burning etc throughout history.. (IGNORANCE !!!!)

Etc etc etc etc ...... History proves me correct.. only ignorance of the truth prevents people from seeing it. That and a delusional belief in a higher entity.

Do i really need to continue with the clear evidence that religion is the root cause of suffering on this planet?


Bahh.. Nvm.. This is a exercise in futility.. Nothing i say is going to change anything .. If there is any True sin in this world Wilful Ignorance is it.