Religion is childish superstition

"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."

So says an unknown letter Einstein wrote to philosopher Eric Gutkind. It makes his view of religion relatively clear.

Einstein, who was Jewish and who declined an offer to be the state of Israel's second president, also rejected the idea that the Jews are God's favoured people.

"For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them."

The letter will go on sale at Bloomsbury Auctions in Mayfair on Thursday and is expected to fetch up to £8,000. The handwritten piece, in German, is not listed in the source material of the most authoritative academic text on the subject, Max Jammer's book Einstein and Religion.

www.guardian.co.uk...

[edit on 13-5-2008 by Daniem]

Man created religions and gods.

People have been using gods or god, and the devil or evil spirits as excuses for centuries. I still continiue to watch the fall of christianity.



Christianity is like a relic from a time of ignorance.

Most of those who are opposed to Christianity think that it is just a relic from an age of ignorance, and they cannot understand why it has not yet been abandoned and consigned to the dustbin of history. But Christianity is more than just a relic.

The reason that it continues to attract followers is because it offers the unthinking masses an easy-to-believe family-friendly explanation of why they exist, and it encourages believers to think of themselves as a caring sharing community rather than as separate selfish individuals.

Most scientists are atheists, and its probably a reason for that... they are the ones looking for answers to how things are\work. And they believe what the evidence shows.

oh my gosh, i'ld never thought about it like that before and no-one has ever put it so well, i've lost my faith, thanks so much.

sounds like einstein held the same regard for god as he held for quantum physics. the man was smart, not inffallible.

Quantum mechanics is certainly imposing. But an inner voice tells me that it is not yet the real thing. Quantum theory says a lot, but does not really bring us any closer to the secret of the Old One. I, at any rate, am convinced that He (God) does not throw dice. (Albert Einstein, On Quantum Physics, Letter to Max Born, December 12, 1926)

link

Academics now laugh at Sigmund Freuds, Moses and Monotheism where aside from saying that the historical figure Moses was Egyptian (a brilliant and bold insight for the time and has now got a lot of support and one I’m behind) but he also more or less agrees with you. In essence he says, that its only because we are weak and fearful of our powerlessness and insignificance in the universe that we have to fill the void with something/anything that will distract us from these fears. Enter religion/Spiritualism and as soon as you or I say anything to this effect their fear goes into overdrive and they seek comfort in numbers and come out swinging with their last line of defence i.e. “I don’t need a God or religion, I’m my own god!”

I speak as a 20years recovering catholic (Irish) and you know what, Freud was spot on!

I beleive in a higher being, a creator, a "force" which exists within all of us.

Its not a bearded man upstairs, its not a son who came to Earth, it just "IS"...

God or a higher power is within every living creature and the Universe, imo.

Its too early to get deep.

I used to be a good Catholic...:shk:

reply to post by Daniem

Most scientists are atheists, and its probably a reason for that... they are the ones looking for answers to how things are\work. And they believe what the evidence shows.

Errr wrong.

And I am sure the fact that your an atheist has no bearing on what your stating in this post.......

Simple fact as I have said a thousand times.
You have proof no such being exists in any form?
Prove it.

I could after all make it sound convincing if I was soo inclined how belief in other planets outside this solar system is a delusion after all.....

Originally posted by Daniem
Man created religions and gods.

People have been using gods or god, and the devil or evil spirits as excuses for centuries. I still continiue to watch the fall of christianity.

"Excuses"? Certainly for some. I think people who are ego-driven naturally believe that they are wise and enlightened and, therefore, tend to create God in their own image. In that case, religion could be their "excuse" for their decisions. But I don't think it's usually a deliberate deception.

The reason that [Christianity] continues to attract followers is because it offers the unthinking masses an easy-to-believe family-friendly explanation of why they exist, and it encourages believers to think of themselves as a caring sharing community rather than as separate selfish individuals.

Christianity is also, like all other religions, rooted in the human desire to understand how we, as moral beings, work. Within the world's extinct and extant religions are teachings that are held to be moral Truths. The names may change from religion to religion, but the basic teachings are pretty darn consistent.

For instance, in English we say "I am sorry". In Japanese we say "Aisumassen". Different words, same meaning. The Norse gods, the Greek gods, the Hindu gods, the Judeo-Christian god, Allah, Buddha, Odin, Zeus, etc, etc, etc. The dogmas and rituals differ, but they all came about from the same human learning curve in understanding the difference between right and wrong, and how and why we know that right and wrong exists.

Most scientists are atheists, and its probably a reason for that... they are the ones looking for answers to how things are\work. And they believe what the evidence shows.

I'd guess that most scientists would call themselves agnostic. Scientists, more than most, I presume, understand the chasm between what they know, what they think they know and what they don't know.

If we give "God" a definition like, say, "the Author of everything that we can't physically measure", I think we'll have a better understanding of what the great so-called prophets were after, and were trying to pass along.

It's probably a mistake to think of religions simply as "ready-made truths for simpletons". Religious teachings come from centuries and millennia of wise study of the human condition. Specific dogma shouldn't make you turn a deaf ear to the wisdom contained in the writings of "God"'s dedicated students.

reply to post by dgtempe


Agreed on both counts.
But after all according to the OP that is childishness and superstision.

Which is of course based of the Einstein letter that atheists are trying to hail as "proof they are right" too bad they see that because they want to soooooo badly.
When what I see is a very smart man (who was a spiritualist not religious) hounded on both sides by both extremes of this idiotic debacle about beliefs. Which continues on even to this day.
It isn't about what he believes, well truly about what he believes.
More about others trying to press their beliefs on others USING him.

[edit on 14-5-2008 by WraothAscendant]

reply to post by WraothAscendant


You cant mean that we must prove that all the claims of gods, demons and spagetti-monsters are false? Dont you understand that it cant be done. You make the claim, and should be the one bringing evidence forth. We cant prove that something invicible, unmeasurable exists or not.

And im not saying there isnt a force or something out there, i just havent found any reason to believe its there, so its obviously most logical not to be a theist. But since we cant prove its existance or nonexistance i have to be agnostic.

reply to post by Daniem


Actually no.
I am not making any claim about the existence of such a being. And have not nor will I. I have my beliefs and they are mine. As opposed to say you, who claim that all such belief is "delusion", "childishness" and etc.
I merely asked for your proof that such a being does not exist.

Considering the arguments you bring to the table are largely speculation on what such a being can and or couldn't do. Which is like I have said in another thread that if a such a being does exist us speculating on what such a being could, would or even was able to do would be rather like an ant critiquing the works of Shakespeare.

You make a claim with this thread. Doesn't matter you deny it when called to back up your assertions. After all the thread is called "Religion is childish superstition" and it was made by yourself.

reply to post by WraothAscendant


I have only quoted what einstein said in his letter, and gave my opinon below the first post. I havent said that i think religion is childish superstition. I said it is from a primitive time and has been decreasing just recently, but still existst for some reason. (and I gave a reason)

I mean that it is most logical to not believe in something that cannot be seen, heard, measured (gods, demons, angels etc)

reply to post by Daniem


And at times the world is not a logical place. Yes, I know people of your stripe blame the great demon religion for it. I disagree. I blame humanity rather than his concepts. For the illogicalness of humanity. There are even times nature seems not to follow any logical path. But that is of course not mankind's fault.
Just thought I would point that out.
And like I said you can put your beliefs up on a pedistal all you want, but you need to realise that it is you YOUR beliefs and may or may not be fact.

Calling all other believers illogical is simuliar to the gazillion other generalized blanket statements that people use for this or that group.
Not all black people are gangsters.
Not all religious people are blood thirsty primitive morons.
Not all white people can't jump or dance.
Etc etc etc etc.
And before you say you didn't say that they are illogical you might want to look at your statement as to how your physical based beliefs are logical, that is by proxy calling all other beliefs not based off that rather narrow minded view as illogical. By the simple fact that you list it as something that sets it apart from the rest.

And incidently, you did not put the title of this thread as a quote you stated it as fact. Otherwords you made a claim. My call still stands for you to prove that claim. Or are you one of those that expect everyone else to prove their beliefs, while you yourself are exempt from the rules you try to hold others to? Rather hypocritical if you are.

[edit on 15-5-2008 by WraothAscendant]

Originally posted by Daniem
reply to post by WraothAscendant

 

You cant mean that we must prove that all the claims of gods, demons and spagetti-monsters are false? Dont you understand that it cant be done. You make the claim, and should be the one bringing evidence forth. We cant prove that something invicible, unmeasurable exists or not.

Yes, we should expect it.

When one makes a statement, even when they are using a negative connotation, the assertion is still a positive thought.

Here's an example:

There is no toilet tissue. None. This morning I checked. There was none on the roll, there was none in the hall closet. And none under the bathroom sink.

And since I had to go out anyway, I put it on a list.

Then, while I was at the lumber yard, I recalled I needed some and asked the kid on the paint aisle.

"We don't have any," he said while he was looking at me strangely.

So I asked the cashier.

"We've never had that," she said politely, "Try across the street."

So I proceeded to Kroger's since I needed to fill up anyway. And while I was paying for my fuel I told the guy in the little booth I needed some toilet tissue.

He sat up in his chair, scrunched his brow, looked around and said, "I got none back here."

So I'm telling you now, there is no toilet tissue. There is none in my bathroom; none in my home. And try as I might, I can't find any anywhere.


I have just made a positive assertion using a negative connotation. Anyone who tells you you get a free 'no proof necessary pass' for using a negative to declare a positive thought has not given much thought to what they are contending.

Either that, or there is no toilet paper.

reply to post by Daniem


You start out with stating that religion is a childish superstition then you go on a mini rant on how the Jews are not the chosen ones. Not sure what your point is on that. On religion, all regions are man made. On the Jews being the chosen people, if they think they are then let them.

Everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want to believe in, you find out the truth when you die.

reply to post by Daniem


Thanks for your opinion, I appreciate it!
So I guess if you can't prove/disprove something it is childish! How neat.

reply to post by garyo1954


Awesome analogy man.
Is it alright if I tuck that one away in my bag "o" quotes for later use?
You will be accreditted of course.

[edit on 15-5-2008 by WraothAscendant]

Originally posted by WraothAscendant
reply to post by Daniem

 

And before you say you didn't say that they are illogical you might want to look at your statement as to how your physical based beliefs are logical, that is by proxy calling all other beliefs not based off that rather narrow minded view as illogical. By the simple fact that you list it as something that sets it apart from the rest.

And incidently, you did not put the title of this thread as a quote you stated it as fact. Otherwords you made a claim. My call still stands for you to prove that claim. Or are you one of those that expect everyone else to prove their beliefs, while you yourself are exempt from the rules you try to hold others to? Rather hypocritical if you are.

[edit on 15-5-2008 by WraothAscendant]

1) My statement, that it is most logical to not be theist when i have found no reason to believe there is a god does NOT mean it is illogical to believe in god. However is would be illogical to believe in god if you have found no reason to believe god exists.


2) The title is NOT my opinion, it is merely the headline from the newspage i read the Einstein letter on.


3) And off course the people who claim the existance of things that arent here in any way we can see, hear, measure etc, need to have evidence of that existance. Now why should i believe it exists when you could have made it up? i would be a sucker if i believed in everyone who told me to believe in something they (in their head) believe exists.

You expect me to disprove the existance of something that cant be disproven. So what i dont get is why people believe it exists when it cant be proven to realy exist. Its just not logical.


4) One more thing that bothers me is when people say that they will never change their belief in god, and be a "warrior" for god. That realy says it all. But i guess its very hard to make someone change their mind when they spend their short life studying something... people dont want to think its been a waste (All those years for nothing). At least im open to change belief as soon as there is reason to.



Thank you for answering, im realy trying to learn a thing or two, or at least understand how others think.

reply to post by Daniem

1) My statement, that it is most logical to not be theist when i have found no reason to believe there is a god does NOT mean it is illogical to believe in god. However is would be illogical to believe in god if you have found no reason to believe god exists.

Still with the implied superiority.
Doesn't matter how you cut it there is still an impied superiority there that is not earned.
Oh and you contridict yourself at the end of this post.

So what i dont get is why people believe it exists when it cant be proven to realy exist. Its just not logical.

Didn't think I'd notice?

2) The title is NOT my opinion, it is merely the headline from the newspage i read the Einstein letter on.

Really? Then how come I see the title as:

Childish superstition: Einstein's letter makes view of religion relatively clear

You will notice the distinction here that Einstein was attributed to (though not in the sense that certain atheists WANT him to mean though IMHO) as saying in a letter.

You on the other hand put this:

Religion is childish superstition

So your not making a claim huh? I am sorry your argument against this sounds like an "My hand wasn't in the cookie jar, really." when one's caught with ones hand in the cookie jar.

3) And off course the people who claim the existance of things that arent here in any way we can see, hear, measure etc, need to have evidence of that existance. Now why should i believe it exists when you could have made it up? i would be a sucker if i believed in everyone who told me to believe in something they (in their head) believe exists.

Yet you believe that there is no "god/higher power/prime mover" and are unable to prove that no such being doesn't exist.
If you can prove it (that you are right), I again call on you to do so.

And since when have I told you to believe everything you hear?
Anyone who tells you that is a fool.
And to so simply state that is what so many religious people are doing is insulting by BS generalized blanket statement a greay many people that don't deserve the insult.

By all mean follow your own path. But don't look down your nose anyone else's either. Which you do, otherwise this thread would not exist with the wording it has.

You expect me to disprove the existance of something that cant be disproven. So what i dont get is why people believe it exists when it cant be proven to realy exist. Its just not logical.

Thusly illogical right? That is after all what not logical means. You just contridicted yourself. Congratulations. Remember when you typed this in the same post none the less?:

My statement, that it is most logical to not be theist when i have found no reason to believe there is a god does NOT mean it is illogical to believe in god.

And no I don't expect you to, because I know you can't, thats the whole point I counter your claim with an asking for proof.
Your making a claim that others beliefs are childish superstition.
Don't you think it behooves you to at least have proof your right?

You seem to expect your beliefs to be up on a pedistal and are pulling no stops in your attempts to achieve that. Even devle into that twisted land called Hypocracy.

4) One more thing that bothers me is when people say that they will never change their belief in god, and be a "warrior" for god. That realy says it all. But i guess its very hard to make someone change their mind when they spend their short life studying something... people dont want to think its been a waste (All those years for nothing). At least im open to change belief as soon as there is reason to.

And you are acting like their mirror.
Both equally wrong. Just in opposite directions.

It should be painfully obvious by now that if such a being does exist.
The change in belief will not come from without, but within.

But you have already decided such a being doesn't. (which is fine)
Though you try to say otherwise. While ATTACKING others for their beliefs.
It's obvious in your statements.

Thank you for answering, im realy trying to learn a thing or two, or at least understand how others think.

Not a problem.

And a word of advice, if you really truly are trying to learn something.
Take your beliefs off the pedistal. Challenge your beliefs as you challenge others. But challenge other's beliefs with respect. Not with some holy-than-thou-I-am-better/smarter-than-you approach.
Otherwise your just going to have a biased and incomplete view and really learn NOTHING. Though you will feel (falsely) like you have.

[edit on 16-5-2008 by WraothAscendant]

reply to post by Daniem



You make some good and deep points..
However If I may.. religion in how you explain it is yes childish in that sense..
But at the base root of all religion.. Its Astro-theology...
which is far from childish... But could be debated on the fact of superstition.
If you would like Id be happy to talk Astro-theology with you after I get some sleep.. I had a wicked nightmare, and woke up and decided to come online here to do some light reading.. This post caught my eye..
And I would be happy to speak with you further..

More to come

reply to post by garyo1954


Nope. It's an entertaining analogy, though

reply to post by WraothAscendant


You can't ask for evidence that he doesn't exist. You make the claims, you bring the evidence. Otherwise I hope you believe in Odin, Zeus, FSM, Father Christmas, etc., as all of those have been claimed to exist (just as you did, without evidence), and if you don't, show me the evidence.