Muhammad - Prophet or Profiteer of God?

Reply to geek101

Now, what i DO, is, when i pray, ask Allah to bless ALL the Prophets. But the verse above, i believe was meant for those living at the time of the Prophet. How else can you salute him if he is not here.
That doesn't mean i dont think of the Prophets, but i think of all of them and ask God to bless all of them.
We shouldn't distinguish between them, for they were all great men.

Good stuff! Certainly impressive!

Can you please answer my questions!I wont act like an idiot promise!!

Do you follow anyone or everything you are stating is your own ideoligy?
And is your family eg.parents same as you aswel?

Reply to geek101

Ok thanks

Reply to geek101

What country do you originate from?
Who taught you about Islam at first when you converted?

reply to post by john13


no, of course not. But there are some verses in there that were meant only for those people at that time. Verses concerning the wives of the prophet for example.
But for the most part, i believe the Quran to be eternal. And even in the verses i previously mentioned, i still think there are things to be learnt.

I don't claim to know everything. I strongly believe that there are all manner of things in the Quran for us to work out and look deeper into the messages given. But we need to do that. We are told to ponder on the Quran. And we should. Because it is a beautifully simple text, full of good things.

Originally posted by kangjia57
Reply to geek101

What country do you originate from?
Who taught you about Islam at first when you converted?

I am from UK. I became Muslim shortly after marrying a Pakistani man. I taught myself about Islam, but its only in the past few years that i started studying it earnestly. And when i did, i found that all the things that had made me uncomfortable about Islam, came from hadith.

Reply to geek101

And when i did, i found that all the things that had made me uncomfortable about Islam, came from hadith.

So is it because of that really you don’t like the hadith or you actually don’t believe in the authenticity of the Hadith?

And the Pakistani man you married,was he a Sunni?and are you still with him?

Originally posted by kangjia57

So is it because of that really you don’t like the hadith or you actually don’t believe in the authenticity of the Hadith?

And the Pakistani man you married,was he a Sunni?and are you still with him?

I don't believe in the authenticity of it basically. I know the "science" behind it, but one thing that really opened my eyes about the hadith was when i found out that all the main collectors (Bukhari, Muslim, Dawud) were from Persia and therefore were brought up in a Zoroastrian background. And if you look at alot of hadith, they show striking similarities to the Zoroastrian faith (even the 5 daily prayers)
There are also hadith that make Muhammad out to be bloodthirtsy, insane, cruel....when we know he wasn't.
There are those that are plain contradictions to the Quran.
There are those that contradict each other.
There are those that are simply too silly for words.

And as a Muslim, i know that the Prophet was greater than this. And i know that the argument is that not everything can be found in the Quran, but when you really read it, you find that there is enough. It is sufficient.

If it is not in there, then i am sure God wasn't bothered about it. If there don't seem to be exact instructions for you to do something, then i believe that God left it to our common sense.

Yes he was a Sunni, and no i am no longer with him, but it had nothing to do with religion.

Reply to geek101

So are you part of the submitters?I mean your ideas are very simillar?

If not where do you find like minded people who share the same thoughts as you?

Whats your view on the Sunnis,wahabis,salafis,shias etc..

What do you think that Allah thinks of us as?

reply to post by kangjia57


jewish tanakh book of jonah 2:9 salvation is from Yahvah.Messiahs new covenant acts 4:11 the Rock which was rejected by you--------became the Chief corner stone 12 and there is salvation in no one else;for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved. 2 books of Yahvah that say allah/muhammed and you will not be saved by anyone else other than the jewish Messiah. heaven as the reward of the saved?no-----its not promised for jew/ christian /muslim or Messiahs followers-----------king david who Messiah says will be over the 12 apostles in His government over israel--------is dead and buried acts 2:29---------he waits with the dead prophets and saints of G-D for the day of Messiahs return and their resurrection from the dead.

Originally posted by kangjia57


So are you part of the submitters?I mean your ideas are very simillar?

If not where do you find like minded people who share the same thoughts as you?

Whats your view on the Sunnis,wahabis,salafis,shias etc..

What do you think that Allah thinks of us as?

I am not part of the sect called the submitters no (if you mean the Rashid Khalifa sect)....but i am a submitter, in that "Muslim" means "one who submits". Rashid Khalifa believes that a couple of verse shoulndt be in Quran, which immediately makes my beliefs different because IMO the Quran cannot be changed.
Where do i find like minded people...lol.....i don't.
I have spoken to various Muslims i know about this, including my ex husband, and i think it is the fear of leaving tradition behind that is the biggest obstacle.
There are some things they agree with but they are happy to stick to what they know. Which isnt much.

I teach my children about Islam, but not about the rituals. I teach them about God, spirituality, the wonders of the universe, etc.

My views on Sunnis, etc....are that i wish more of them would read Quran, and not just repeat it. Read it in english (or whatever your language is), ponder upon it, take it slow, and realise that it is so simple. Hadith have made things horribly complicated.

I do not know what Allah thinks of any of us. I cannot comprehend God so i certainly cannot comprehend His thoughts.

Reply to yahn goodney

jewish tanakh book of jonah 2:9 salvation is from Yahvah.Messiahs new covenant acts 4:11 the Rock which was rejected by you--------became the Chief corner stone 12 and there is salvation in no one else;for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved. 2 books of Yahvah that say allah/muhammed and you will not be saved by anyone else other than the jewish Messiah. heaven as the reward of the saved?no-----its not promised for jew/ christian /muslim or Messiahs followers-----------king david who Messiah says will be over the 12 apostles in His government over israel--------is dead and buried acts 2:29---------he waits with the dead prophets and saints of G-D for the day of Messiahs return and their resurrection from the dead.

LOL what is all that above^^??Sounds like some sorta alien tryna make conversation with human.

Yahud(Bani Israel)=Lost and no Allah not forgive Bani Israel
Allah only accept=Muslims not yahudi Bani Israel
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)=Final profit matey

Reply to geek101

Ok thanks for answering my questions and I apologise for acting like a loonatic earlier. Just shows if I become understanding patient than I can understand others views and thoughts.

I gota sleep now,hope to discuss more with you some other time!
Thanks again!

reply to post by kangjia57


we're all capable of acting like lunatics
am going to sleep too...nice chatting to you (in the end)

reply to post by kangjia57

alien ? how did you hack into the government citizen/immigrant data base ?------------ha ha ha--------- trying to get across to you the truth-------------its up to you to check it out and help save yourself-------if you get to see---------your going to hate yourself for being deceived by the god of this world who is not the G-D of heaven.

Originally posted by kangjia57
Reply to geek101

LOL i feel sorry for you!!!! Girl repent and pray to Allah forgiveness!Indeed hes the most merciful!

You people tryna make Islam modern by changing it (innovators).Islam is modern from the first day and none can change it!

Keep fooling yourself matey (i mean girl)!!Indeed you wil discover the TRUTH one day!Make sure though that its before death or otherwise NO COMING BACK AFTER DEATH!!

Why would she repent & worship a sexist god that obviousely has issues with Women?

Why would she Cover herself from head to toe in an uncomfortable stinking hot outfit just because some wierd god that is afraid to look on one of the most beutiful forms in nature?

Why would she submitt herself to a god that would slaughter her if she were to have sexual relations outside of marige (even if those relations were Forced apon her against her will) & it is still considered her crime?

Why would she Pray to a god that won't let her leave har home alone & without being in the company of a male at all times?

Why would she become a muslim if it means at the age of 10
she is married off to some disgusting 80 year old Pedophile or has to give her 10 year old daughter away to some disgusting 80 year old Pedophile?

Why would she join a sect, that would otherwise Slaughter her if she refused to join said sect & submitt to it in every way shape & form?

Why would she bow to a religion, whos men are soo pathetic that they can't control their sexual urges that all the above apply?


LOL

YOu can defend Islam all you like but the facts are you can never justify the prejudices that Islam inflicts on Women, Jews & other non-Muslims.

Simply put, if you donot submit to Islam, you are a Infidel who mst be slaughtered

These are the words of your own prophet & you are yet to explain how those words are misinterpreted!!!!

Islam has no tolorence to anyone or anythinf not Muslim.


When a cristian man visits a muslim country, he must obey the rules of Islam. But when a Muslim visits a Christian country, the Christians living there must obey the laws of Islam for the duration of that Muslims visit..

Why is that so?

Why dose Islam not have any respect for other religions in other countries?

Why dose it not Tollotare & make room in Muslim countries for Other religions?

Why do Muslims gangs here in Australia go to Bondi Beach & abuse Women on the beach and threaten them "in their own country", if they do not put on some clothes?

Yet at the same time, if a christian man in a muslim country, were to abuse & spit on muslim women, he could very likely get his head cut off..lol

Why? Because Muslims are arrogant & insist all on earth follow their ways. there is no tollorance in Islamic sociaty.

You might say the same of Jewdism & Christianity, but the fact is, we bend over backwards to make Muslims grpoups feel comfortable in non-musloim countries. Something that Muslims in turn are unable to do in their own countries & "in the countries they visit or come to live in"!!!!!

And you wonder why people resent you. You go totally insane (flag burning, yelling screaming, waving AK47's in the air), if someone just slightly insults you. While when you insult us, we take it in stride..lol

Its all about self control.. Islam has no self control, it isn't in your teachings, otherwise we wouldn't have this mess that we have today between our respective religions.

I do not hate you & I do not Hate Muslims, so please take all I have said in stride.

I do not hate you, but I am afraid of you!!!


[edit on 12/8/2007 by Ironclad]

Hey again, Kanja!
I know you apologised and all to geek, but just something for your information (not trying to put you down or anything), that it is not an Islamic thing to keep bringing up sects and divisions. So far you've put down the deobandis, the wahabis, the submitters, and went as far as (almost saying) 'Sunnis win Woo hoo!'. You might be interested to know about this verse of the Quran:

Surah 30:31-32
Turn ye back in repentance to Him, and fear Him: establish regular prayers, and be not ye among those who join gods with Allah,- Those who split up their Religion, and become (mere) Sects,- each party rejoicing in that which is with itself!

Geek, the Quran tells you what to do during ablution, but does not specify the order in which it is supposed to be done. The Quran does say to establish prayers, but gives no indication on how to read them.

Ironclad! As jabby as your post may be, I think it might have the potential to bring this tread back on track. The answers to all you WHYs is simple. She wouldn't. That is why she is following Islam.

yahn goodey, I agree with Jonah 2:9, and even with acts 2:29. Yes, Jesus will return, and he is the Messiah, but you and I seem to disagree as to what his beliefs will be. Also, for a reminder, Acts was written after Jesus was raised up. While it may all be an interesting narrative, how can you say it was the message that Jesus delivered to his people? Were John and Peter prophets? Did they recieve a message from God? Still, I also agree with acts 4:11. Today it is the Christians who are rejecting the cornerstone.

Yahn Goodey. Do you believe that there will be any more Prophets? Do you believe that there were any after Jesus was raised up? Because the Bible doesn't say. It does warn against false prophets, but that doesn't mean that there won't be any true ones. According to the NT, there was a time when the Jews were completely waylaid, and Jesus came and preached and to them what appeared to be completely different from their religion. Do you think that such a time cannot come again (only this time with Christians)?

It is kind of depressing how after barely 5 pages of discussion, this whole thread descended into a back-forth bickering (with me included as well).

[edit on 9-12-2007 by babloyi]

Reply to babloyi

), that it is not an Islamic thing to keep bringing up sects and divisions. So far you've put down the deobandis, the wahabis, the submitters, and went as far as (almost saying) 'Sunnis win Woo hoo!'. You might be interested to know about this verse of the Quran:

Surah 30:31-32
Turn ye back in repentance to Him, and fear Him: establish regular prayers, and be not ye among those who join gods with Allah,- Those who split up their Religion, and become (mere) Sects,- each party rejoicing in thatwhich is with itself!

Of course matey we Muslims should not make sects within islam.But people have split up and I am just stating them to make sure their teachings do not conflict with the Sunni teachings and its clear to people what Sunnis follow and what others follow.

So matey what is your view on the post I have posted of Hadiths stating there are gona be 73 sects and ONE WILL GO TO HEAVEN?

What is you view on the Hadith stating that the right ones are those who follow the MAJORITY (the main body)?

Of course we have to distinguish between different sects that have been created within Islam. Its the matter of faith (AQEEDAH) and you have to make sure you have to follow the right one on order to be in the sect that is the MAJORITY. You have to make sure that you are following the TRUTH!
What are the non-Muslims gona think of how many different teachings are there in Islam?We have to be CLEAR and CUT so others can understand matey!

Are you tryna say that you can go and pray behind a wahabi,salafi,shia,submitters imam? Nope according to Sunni scholars your salaah is not accepted matey!!

reply to post by kangjia57


Nope, kangjia, all people who say "La illah ha il-Allah" are muslim, and it is not your right, or my right, or anybody else's to say who is right and who is wrong, as far as they are following Islam- and following Islam means (and I quote the Quran from memory here, ask me again if you want me to look it up) those who believe in Allah, the Angels, the Prophets, the Day of Judgement, and do good deeds. I would be behind any of them as far as their leading prayers go (except maybe Shias, but only because they pray in a different way). You say yourself that you are of the Hanafi school of thought. Do you automatically think that the followers of the Maliki, Shafi'i and Hanbali schools are going to hell?

As for the Hadith you quoted, it is interesting that none of them made it into Sahih Bukhari or Sahih Muslim (meaning that they failed Bukhari and Muslim's rigorous testing for authenticity), and while this does not automatically mean they are false, they have other problems with some of their narrators. Even if we take them to be true, they do not automatically mean that the divisions or groups made will be on the basis of teachings or understandings of the Quran or Hadith, but more as the unity of the Ummah as a 1 group, which has kept the Quran and Hadith preserved.

There is a more reputable Hadith that I'm sure you know of. The Prophet said that near the end, there will be very little light of Islam on the world. When the companions asked if this was because the muslims will be few in number, he said that no, the muslims will be very large in number, but only very few will be following true Islam.

While I disagree with geeks disregard of the entire Hadith, one should ask themselves the following questions: Am I a follower of Islam, or a follower of the scholars of Islam? Are you a muslim, or a sunni? If you have to call yourself a Sunni Muslim, then you are promoting sectarianism. If you are a Sunni, there are already many different schools of thought in Sunniism. Are all of them right? Are only one of them right? Who has the power to decide who is right and wrong? You?

[edit on 9-12-2007 by babloyi]

Reply to babloyi

While I disagree with geeks disregard of the entire Hadith, one should ask themselves the following questions: Am I a follower of Islam, or a follower of the scholars of Islam? Are you a muslim, or a sunni? If you have to call yourself a Sunni Muslim, then you are promoting sectarianism. If you are a Sunni, there are already many different schools of thought in Sunniism. Are all of them right? Are only one of them right? Who has the power to decide who is right and wrong? You?

Allah (subhanawataallah) is the most superior and knows best! Indeed he’s the one who will finally decide and NO ONE ELSE matey!

So why would you not pray behind Shias?They still class themselves as Muslims?
Would you pray behind a Deobandi or Mirzai imam?

Matey I am not making sects but its very important who you follow as it’s the matter of Aqeedah (faith).You cant reject the Sahabeen, Tabaieen, Taba-Tabayeen, saints/awliya,scholars as Islam has been passed down from them and taught by them.
Don’t tell me you learned all about Islam by yourself? From Arabic to fiqh teachings?

I believe that the followers of the Maliki, Shafi'i and Hanbali and Hanafi schools are all right. Other sects have been created not because they have different school of thoughts but different perspective of the way they look at Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) ,Quran and Allah himself.

And of course the intention as a Muslim for every action i do is for Allah (subhanawatalaah).


[edit on 9-12-2007 by kangjia57]

reply to post by kangjia57


Why dose one have to join a religion in order to get into heaven?

If one is good & kind & helps others. Leads a full life & remains true to all things good, shouldn't that be enough?

Is God/Allah that vain that he requires lesser beings to get down on their knees & beg & pray & grovel to him.

I believe in being a good person & try my best to be as decent a human being as possible, without joining a sect like islam or Christianity. Dose that still make me an Infidel?

I can follow the best teachings of both the Bible & the Qoran by myself without having to participate in rituals & customs. But is this enough in the eyes of Mohammed?

I know Jesus wouldn't mind too much, as long as I stayed out of trouble.

[edit on 12/9/2007 by Ironclad]