Women need to shut up and sit down

Originally posted by orangetom1999
perhapsed I should try this again..from this post here about the bible not being sufficiently gender inclusive...

Here at this link....

www.abovetopsecret.com...

This post by Mr Bender he uses the term Gender Inclusive. THis caught me by surprise as it is the first time I had seen it used in such a context to describe the Bible. This is what I am thinking when I see people describe the Bible as sexist...that it should be more gender inclusive. Am I understanding this correctly on the part of many of the posters??

Thanks,
Orangetom

well, i think you should make the term "gender inclusive" more clear.

The advocacy of gender-neutral language reflects at least two different agenda:

One aims to clarify the inclusion of both sexes or genders (gender-inclusive language).

The other proposes that gender, as a category, is rarely worth marking in language (gender-neutral language).

source


my personal answer is that it is not at all meant to be gender inclusive when speaking about wives being in submission to their husband.

the arguement that it was is being supported by verses such as Galatians 3:28 which states "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." This verse is hardly gender inclusive and includes both sexes as well as master and slave. it is speaking of salvation, not our roles on earth.

surely this is obvious when the roles here on earth are clarified in Ephesians 5:22-33

22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

33Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.


it is not to say that a woman is not morally responsible for her choices, but rather that she, being the weaker vessel (yes physically, but even more so emotionally) PLACES HERSELF under the submission of a man that will love her and help to guide her so that through accountability, she is keeping her morality in check.

the following is a great explanation (much better than i could do) of someone who believes, like myself, that the bible was NOT MEANT to be gender inclusive, but rather it is what it is....... obviously!

source

edited to add:: and i love the point that he brings up about jesus being submissive to his parents.

[edit on 21-7-2008 by justamomma]

What our priest says about that is most of those verses were written by Paul and not by Jesus so we don't have to pay any attention to them.

Except the one in deuteronomy which is about not wearing mens clothing.

Most women dont think they look good in mens clothing anyway.

I think if you want to pick a fight over bible verses you can do that too.


sarc

Originally posted by sarcastic

What our priest says about that is most of those verses were written by Paul and not by Jesus so we don't have to pay any attention to them.
sarc

are you a christian? if so, then how do you pick and choose what is relevent and what is not? also, how do you just pick deut. to pay attention to when god also said in Gen 3: 16 "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

not looking to fight either. but just looking for some consistency to ppl's logic.

personally, I take it as being a result of the eating the tree of knowledge. they only had a bite ya know, not the whole tree full of apples. they got only a small serving, just enough to screw every thing up, but not enough to fully understand what they got.
the knowledge of good and evil...the ability to judge what is good, what is not. who is strong, who isn't. who is "emotional" and who is "logical"......much like you are doing...
it's the consequences of their actions and in no way the original objective that God had planned. (well, maybe he planned it, heck maybe even adam had it planned, I mean, if he was the protector of eve well, where was he when the serpent came into the garden to begin with?"

by eating of the tree adam and eve chose to set the course of humanity on a path that was not exactly what God had set up for them. was adam ruling eve in the garden? was he laboring from dawn till dusk for their food and supplies? no, it wasn't till they got the ability to actually reason out and distinguished what they say as good, what they saw as evil, what they saw as strong or weak, ect....that these things came into being. a women's labor is intensified by her resistance...if she allows the pains to flow through her, it is less painful. but we reason that pain is not good, so we resist it, so the pain is multiplied. we reason that having more is good, so the man, always wanting more, works harder and harder, and harder to obtain more crap! and we reason that being stronger is good, and let the stronger rule over us...
all those people that wandered around the countryside with jesus, they weren't working, were they? and yet, they were fed. when the tax man came for the money and the disciples came to him, did jesus tell them they should go find a job and come up with the money? na...he just told them to do what they liked to do, go fishing, catch one fish, and you would find ceaser's token in it, and give it back to him. it's his economy, his money, the ceasers of the world created because they judged it to be better than what God had created.
we are told BY JESUS, that his sheep will follow only his voice.....
we are told BY JESUS, that a person who serves two lords will learn to love one and despise the other.
we are told BY JESUS, to be in the world but not of it.
Jesus never told any women to be subservient or obedient to any man! he was showing the people how to live outside of ceaser's system. and that is why he was killed.

Originally posted by dawnstar

Jesus never told any women to be subservient or obedient to any man! he was showing the people how to live outside of ceaser's system. and that is why he was killed.

we were told by the god of the old testament that we should have no other gods before him. so, do you believe jesus, the human, was god?

jesus also was submissive to his parents as i stated earlier. so this arguement that jesus said "my sheep hear me and no my voice" doesn't hold water when it comes to our roles here on earth. he is referring to "salvation" as individuals, not our roles.

do you have a boss? if so, you are willingly putting yourself into submission to another human. does that conflict w/ your moral responsibility to god?

jesus said that he came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill the law.. he was not going against the god of the old testament as some want ot believe. do you believe in the bible, bc i am unclear on this. i am unclear bc i am not a christian and yet i am starting to think that i understand it in a more consistent way w/out having to pick and choose what suits me than most who claim christianity.

as the article states, a very good theory for the curse of women was not that man would rule over woman, but rather that woman will resent that fact......... funny, bc that does seem to largely be the curse in our society. some men abuse the power and some women can't sit down and shut up and really think things through.

reply to post by justamomma


"Let the torah be burned, but let it not be taught to a women!"

the jews really don't want me reading their holy scriptures ...probably the only reason why it's permitted today is that the feminists pressed them hard enough on the issue! so, why should I care what it says?
but, I got to ask this.
the jewish women were banned from learning how to read the bibile. the slaves were banned from learning how to read.....just how did they know just what God expected out of them. they must of heard it from the men (probably her husband or father or master, who in turn, up until the guttenburg press and all, heard it from the preists.


in fact, my dad gave me a bible when I was young....my father died before I was in high school, so well, I was young...
I read the thing from beginning to end, I'd say I was around the age of 10, with no one telling me how it should be interpreted. and I have read it serveral times, beginning to end since then, while having the advatage of church leadership helping to understand it. have you read it? because, for the most part, it is very, very sexist. the only thing of much value in it I think are those words that are written in red script if you have a old fashion king james bible...the words that are attributed to Jesus. and the line about the sheep hearing his voice, and obeying only him are in red! I mean, do you really believe that God commended the early Isrealites to go into villages and kill every living thing within, except of course the pretty women, who they were allowed to take as slave, wives and concubines? or, does it sound more feasible that their leaders wanted this land, so they claimed this is what God said?
and, I WAS a christian....my faith was blown out of the water about two weeks after my first child was born. ya see.....if I believe that God has told me to do something, that is what I will do....even when it's hard or painful.
I was on one of the yahoo boards a few years ago, chatting with the women on the chirstian board under a topic about abused women. where all these fine christian women were trying to convince these abused women that yes, God wants you to submit to their husbands, to obey them...but then they were quick to add all the exceptions. well, I chatted with them on and off for about six months before I called them on this and told them how far I had gone with this submission bit before I decided just how if was more just a bunch of crock. a few of the women, more than once, abruptly ended their chat with a statement that went something like.....well, I got to run, my husband will be home soon, and he doesn't want me chatting on these boards.....well, if they knew they weren't to be chatting on the boards, why were they on the boards telling women who's husbands were thinking that they had the right to beat on them that they should submit and obey....they weren't doing this themselves....and it wouldn't hurt them one bit.
so, let me ask you this question.....
do you think that a man can rape his wife, or is her body his to enjoy whenever he wishes, and she should just be obedient and submit?
because, I got to tell ya right now, a husband forcing sex on you two weeks after giving birth when he has full knowledge of the medical advice given to the women is RAPE!
that was the end of my submission and obedience right there, along with my faith. you go through that bible, ya it tells the men that they should be loving, kind, protective, ect of their wives....
but, you tell me, where in the bible does it say that the wives don't have to obey the husband in all things....even forced sex right after birth, not working while you kids go without medicine, clothing, ect. heck, as far as I know, the women in Isreal still can't get a divorce...it's up to the husbands. the court can order the husband to divorce her, but then, if he refuses, then he's thrown into jail for not obeying the court ruling....and there is still no divorce.

and yes, I have a boss....but that little voice inside of me is nudging me into changing the situation. the boss and me have made an agreement, which either of us can change at any time. I agree to print little banners and pennants for him, he agrees on paying me some money, giving me sick time, healthcare benefits, holiday and vacation pay. now, let's say that tommorrow, he were to come into work and tell us all that he wanted us to start going to bed at 9 everynight because it seems to him that we are all tired and not as productive. to me, that would not be included in that agreement (wouldn't help with my being tired either, since that's related to health problems)....and I would feel free to ignore it.
there are limits to the bosses authority over me, and if me (or God) decides the place is no longer right for me, I can change.
now, what are the limits of the husband's authority over the wife? the bible doesn't seem to give any.





[edit on 23-7-2008 by dawnstar]

[edit on 23-7-2008 by dawnstar]

[edit on 23-7-2008 by dawnstar]

[edit on 23-7-2008 by dawnstar]

reply to post by dawnstar


The bible most certainly does give limits to the man's authority over the woman. There's only one verse for the woman: submit. Look how many verses are directed to the man. If you love the woman as your own flesh, do you rape her or beat her? Of course not.

Love is the limit placed on a man's authority over a woman. If a thing is not done in love, especially in zoe, then the authority has ended.

A husband and wife, as representatives of Christ and The Church, are to have the highest standards of righteousness in love. If the husband, an archetype of Christ, beats and rapes and ill uses his wife (an archetype of the Church), then how do you think Christ feels about "His" bride being treated in such a way? Men have been given great responsibility which comes with some amount of privilege. The privilege is in place for a man to be better able to exercise his (righteous) authority; not to tyrranize the charges he is to foster.

I certainly wouldn't want to have to answer to the most righteous Almighty that I was abusive or neglectful and misrepresented my position as His representative on earth for how one is to respond and care for that which is most precious in His heart: the church.

reply to post by whitewave


star for you i was still toying around w/ her post trying to figure out how to best answer it but you said it best.

we don't ever really hear the men, as a collective, arguing w/ all God laid out for them in the bible.

women on the other hand, with all their complaining and trying to manipulate the words of a God they say they follow are proving why the the order to submit was a valid order w/ purpose.

[edit on 23-7-2008 by justamomma]

I will never sit down, shut up, or submit!

Call me lilith and exile me into the abyss.

I am equal to and not secondary or subject to the proper handling of a man or anyone else.

I think that I was given the same unique ability to make proper choices and I plan to exercise them.

Don't forget Hecate, Athena, or Minerva...........All given potential of the power of creation, perseverence, and destruction!

reply to post by interestedalways


So be it. Just as there are a world full of men who, with equal vociferousness, proclaim that they will never submit to THEIR authority (Christ) or treat women as the Creator intended, you are free also to refuse submission.

As a woman I am equal to a worldly man and to such a one I also will not submit. Let me see a righteous man under HIS headship submitting to the authority of Christ first. Since men (rightly) claim leadership, let them lead the way in submission so that a woman can see how it's done. To such a one I will submit.

Originally posted by whitewave
reply to post by interestedalways

 

So be it. Just as there are a world full of men who, with equal vociferousness, proclaim that they will never submit to THEIR authority (Christ) or treat women as the Creator intended, you are free also to refuse submission.

As a woman I am equal to a worldly man and to such a one I also will not submit. Let me see a righteous man under HIS headship submitting to the authority of Christ first. Since men (rightly) claim leadership, let them lead the way in submission so that a woman can see how it's done. To such a one I will submit.

right, i was gonna say the same thing. just as a woman doesn't have to submit, a man does not have to be loving and nice.

it is not meant to be an insult and certainly it doesn't have to be complied with. these "roles" being laid out in the bible really are wisdom if followed by both man and woman and i am still not quite sure why ppl are getting offended.

women submit all the time. they submit to their gov't, they submit to their bosses.......... i think that maybe the issue is that "we" don't like being told to submit.

the point is, if you would take the time to choose your husband wisely, submitting should not be a ball and chain you have to wear.

and if you have no husband, then the command doesn't apply to you. also, i have never once said that women should have to submit to ALLLLL men..... only their husband.

[edit on 23-7-2008 by justamomma]

Originally posted by justamomma

Originally posted by sarcastic

What our priest says about that is most of those verses were written by Paul and not by Jesus so we don't have to pay any attention to them.
sarc

are you a christian? if so, then how do you pick and choose what is relevent and what is not? also, how do you just pick deut. to pay attention to when god also said in Gen 3: 16 "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

not looking to fight either.

but just looking for some consistency to ppl's logic.

I used to be a christian until the church turned the other way war after war, single parent after single parent and homeless after homeless.

I read the bible too and what I see is there is a huge difference between what Jesus taught and what Pauls writings teach. Its like the New Testament has two mutually contradicting points of view.

Once I realized that then its easy to follow Jesus and let the church following Paul go.

One site that helped me a lot to see the differences is www.liberalslikechrist.org .


sarc

I love you guys, (girls) you are so cool!

The bible likes to deal with blanket statements and that just doesn't cover the whole spectrum of human development. Dominate or submissive is not gender orientated, many males are naturally submissive, just as many females are naturally dominate then you have the ones in the middle. Your genes and traits you are born with determines these things.

Not a book

But I'm still amused by many of the posts.

reply to post by sarcastic


thnks for the link. i'll check it out bc you took the time to post it although my views on the bible are not based from what i have learned from any organized religion.

i was raised in a christian enviroment (baptist to be specific ) and for much the same reasons as you, i shun organized religion. i think much wisdom can be found in about any text though, even non religious.

i don't support this idea bc of an organized religion has said to, i support this idea bc it makes sense.

the problems in churches these days is they are so hypocritical and fail to teach young women that the power IS in their hands when it comes to marriage. you don't have to settle on just anyone. you can choose wisely.

i don't condone a woman to stay in an abusive marriage AT ALL!! if you lay down the ultimatum to him to be kind and loving and to not hit you and he continues to belittle and degrade you, RUN!! FLEE!!! ESPECIALLY IF THERE ARE YOUNG IMPRESSIONABLE EYES WATCHING!!!

what i am saying is that women should use their power to choose wisely. once you do, then submitting should be no problem bc you will be respected and heard by your husband.

there is a reason for a set up such as this one and it is so major conflicts can be avoided.

a major problem today is too many ppl go into marriage thinking that divorce is an option in much the same way as returning a shirt that doesn't fit is an option. had you taken the time to make sure the shirt fit first, you would not have to go through all the stress of returning it. but this is only a minor comparison bc marriage involves so much more, especially if children are to be involved.

women AND men don't take this family business seriously anymore and society is suffering for it.

the churches should be more consistent w/ the book they claim to believe in and teach women to be wise so that submission isn't (again) a ball and chain they have to wear; rather it will be done w/ a good heart and a loving disposition.

does that make more sense? and by all means, again, if you are single, you are free to make any and all choices on your own. but just bc you have that freedom doesn't mean one should abuse it by being irresponsible.

[edit on 23-7-2008 by justamomma]

reply to post by whitewave


I agree with you on this....
if the man has not acknowledged and made his head christ....
he has very little authority over his wife, especially if she is trying to be God centered.
so, let's run with this idea....
what's the percentage of men out there that you see that you think are submitting to God? reckon how many men slap the tax forms down front of the women, know danged well that their are some non-truths on it, and then act impatient when the women looks over it to see just what it is she is proclaiming to be truth....and then comes out with a "oh, come on and sign the danged thing, I got to get going!
add to that all the men out there who don't want to be bothered by the bill collectors so they are having their wives tell them he's never home!

add all of those up, and well, I got a feeling you would have over 50% of the population that have basically proven, through their actions, that they aren't submitting to anyone but themselves!
so, should the world be designed to suit the few couples out there that are actually making this idea work? should the job market be fixed so that the men always make a higher wage since, well, ya know, the women has a husband taking care of her anyways? should the majority of the women in this country really sit down and shut up?
christians are told to be in the world, but not of it...they are not told to transform the world something more to their liking! that's christ's job, and he does this one person at a time and forces nothing on no one.
the majority of women in this country I think have to work...or they are on public assistance and really should be working....and, I really think it was like that before the movement was started. if they are having to work, then yes, their pay should be comparable to the men's, their pregnancy should be treated as an illness and they should get sick pay, disability for it. thereshould be child care centers around the country providing a safe place for their children while they are working and no one is available to care for them. and by God.....their monthly mood swings don't seem to be any worse than the mood swings that the men go through! boohoo for the boss that doesn't want to endure them!
but no, God does not want me to submit and obey a husband that has turned his back on him to play lord over me!

and, yes, the young men and women should be choosing their mates more wisely....I'll go even as far as saying that God should have a major say in that decision...but this world should be designed to accomodate the women who's answer from god is no, marriage isn't for you. otherwise, it is forcing some women to go against his design.




[edit on 24-7-2008 by dawnstar]

reply to post by Copernicus



" We dont need religions, only spirituality and care for our fellow human beings."


CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!


For encapsulating the mantra of the new agers, [ socialist/communist/globalist ]

who are in a trance like state who seem to be following some kind of invisible pied piper

who is about to take all of you over a cliff together.

reply to post by toasted


the blind, leading the blind....much like what would happen if all the women just started obeying and submitting to the men in this country.. really don't see much difference.

by the way, there are some in the new age movement, that aren't liberal, or communist...matter of fact, they're republican...try fitting that into your reality.

reply to post by dawnstar



" by the way, there are some in the new age movement, that aren't liberal, or communist...matter of fact, they're republican...try fitting that into your reality."

Despite your attempt to separate it, the fact remains, it is our reality.

In case you missed it, we haven't been a REPUBLIC, in years.

We also haven't had a politician on either side mention our republic, only our democracy and democratic ways.

Ever notice that?

So, to add some light, I'll quote James Madison;

" Democracy is the most vile form of government... democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention: have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property: and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths."

I know an original from a fake.

I also know what these people really are, in spite of the sincere label they wear or is applied to them.

"Ye shall know them, by their fruits"....by what they do, not what they say.

Originally posted by toasted


In case you missed it, we haven't been a REPUBLIC, in years.

We also haven't had a politician on either side mention our republic, only our democracy and democratic ways.

Ever notice that?

"Ye shall know them, by their fruits"....by what they do, not what they say.

Bingo! I am always excited when I see a fellow poster who has done their homework!! I often feel alone in this point. I am just waiting for the typical socialist response now. Makes me want to