Overhaul of our tax system

I wanted to start a thread discussing the overhaul of our tax system that is overburdening the american people both from a financial standpoint as well as from a time standpoint. The intention of this thread is not to get into a debate about the federal reserve system for there are already many great threads on this issue but to discuss the various tax reform plans that are out there and possibly come up with other alternatives.

From my standpoint a small business owner I am inundated with every kind of possible tax which not only affects the growth of my business but also taxes my time. I have federal taxes, intangible taxes, payroll taxes, sales taxes, liscense costs, then on top of that there is the tax on my time required to comply with all the taxes.

It is no secret that our tax system needs to be overhauled I also believe that the federal government needs a revenue collection system to pay for our defense etc.

What are your thoughts regarding

the Fair tax
The flat tax

Heres an idea I have

1. The implementation of an oversight board made up of american citizens that are choosen from voter registrations. The purpose of this board would be to oversee government spending to eliminate the waste, and pork barrell projects that eat up huge amounts of our tax dollars. Whether this commitee is the answer or not I dont know but as part of any revised tax plan we need a way to control and eliminate the wasteful spending.

2. The elimination of the IRS. By eliminating the IRS we as a country would be saving billions of dollars not only from the beauracratic standpoint but also from the standpoint of all the money and time american citizens spend on tax preparation, an legal representation. Additionally by eliminating the IRS we would be promoting a better system that does not invite fraud and tyranny.

3. My thoughts to replace the revenue stream is for the Government to buy out, now I did say buy not take, most forms of american utilities. and utilizing the utility profits as a way of funding our national expenditures. THink about it everyone uses the utility system and it seems to me that this would be a fair system. A person that can afford a 10,000 square foot mansion would of course be paying more than a person living in a one bedroom shack. It is entirly based on usage. Now I am not suggesting a socialist form of government where the government controls all essentials I am proposing the Government take advantage of our capitistic society to fund itself. Although the utilities would be owned by the american public they could still be privately managed to ensure effeciency and productivity, the profits would simply be used to fund the government. On top of that with an oversight board to control wasteful spending there would be a control factor in place to prevent an escalation in energy costs.

Thanks for the post!

All I have to say is: "Fair Tax all the way...It even makes illegals pay!" Sorry for the cheerleader chant.

www.fairtax.org...

reply to post by photobug


My view from beyond your borders on your tax structure:
(1) an individual citizen has the God-given right to what he earns on his labour and cannot be taxed for it.
(2) business corporations should not be defined as "persons" who then go about avoiding taxation.
(3) the only form of taxation that is fair involving individual citizens is a tax upon items purchased which has the salutary benefit of taxing those who make their money "off books" in some black market enterprise or other ill-gotten method.

I'm surprised that this thread hasn't 'caught fire' so to speak. I would think there is a great deal to say about how one feels about being taxed or at least how US citizens feel about their IRS.

reply to post by Pellevoisin


No doubt. I better not see anyone on ATS complaining next April 15!

The IRS is not less then Modern Day Criminal Thugs, with roots that date back almost 100 years.

As each day goes by, it becomes clearer, that there is something terrible working at hand here, and the thing we need to find out, is, is there a force in the system that can help us.

A man should not be taxed for his labour.

reply to post by Pellevoisin


Excellent points. I tend to agree with, but the trick is to get the american public to open their eyes.

reply to post by photobug


You actually made me sad.

Have you bothered to do the math on this?

Let's say it costs $1 a year per-sq foot of land. Then your methodology would be some-what correct, but this of course isn't true. A smaller house is going to have less space, thus they need to cram more things into that space, thus they use more per-room than if someone has a larger house.

You also forget a few other key factors, take electricity. How is a poorer student meant to study? With the light off? With no access to the internet? With no access television? Of course, the rich will still be fine.

Also define utility. Take water, rich people - higher earners, can afford other drinks. Poor people need water, it in fact should always be "at cost" and should not be taxed at all let alone in the form you suggest.

You also forget one key factor: Savings. Rich people, save a lot of money. They are able to do so, this money when not being taxed would force a massive hole into the Government's pocket. What do you suggest to do to cover this?

You can't suggest to lower the Government's spending, because doing so would result in a economic crash. You'd be laying thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people out of work.

So:
How is this fair on poorer people?
How would you fill the economic gap without increasing the level of tax on utlities so that only the "elite" can afford it?

(I can go on.)

As a generally Libertarian-minded American, I'll post my views on those two tax systems, and on the current one (shortly).

Current tax system: It's terrible in the extreme, wasteful, putrid, and wrong. Period.

Flat tax: I would only endorse the flat tax if there was an economical way to use it as a transitional tax structure between our current tax system and NO direct federal tax.



Fair Tax: While it's not the current tax system, the point of removing the power from the government is to remove it's money and return it to the people.

This is simply another method to centralize the money and retain the power the federal government now (wrongly) has.

I am not seeking a better way for the government to work outside the Constitution, but to STOP them from working outside it by removing the money AND control from them.

By simply removing large sections of the government, removing federal business subsidies, removing "free trade" laws, and disallow the federal government to bribe the states into passing laws for money, we would be far better off and far more Constitutional.

I think it's safe to say, that no matter how good or well thought out a system or program is, the federal government will find a way to abuse it. the only way for change is to simply remove it.

reply to post by Odium




Sorry to make you sad, I was merely asking for input on two existing tax plans as well as an idea that popped into my head. I believe that there are no bad ideas and one must start at some point. You are correct in the fact that I have not done any math for my utility idea. I was simply posing the possibility of another tax system. I appreciate your thoughts on my proposed utility tax system and I would be anxious to listen to your ideas to overhaul our existing tax system which you must realize is absolutely horrible.

How is a poorer student meant to study? With the light off? With no access to the internet? With no access television? Of course, the rich will still be fine.

How do they do it now? I did not propose raising their utility rates.

Also define utility. Take water, rich people - higher earners, can afford other drinks. Poor people need water, it in fact should always be "at cost" and should not be taxed at all let alone in the form you suggest.

A defination of utilities could be water, electric, gas, and petroleum. I agree with you on the fact that water should be provided at cost. Perhaps all utilities should be at cost since most forms of energy are generated through the use of natural resources. Hydro Power is mostly generated by daming rivers that for the most part belong to the american people. Most petroleum and gas products produced in the states are taken out of government land that belongs to the american people as well. Why should a few select groups of individuals profit from what really belongs to all of us. So perhaps you are right that a tax system based on utilities may not work but you have opened up an argument that all utilities should be owned by the american public and provided at cost since this is a resource that everyone consumes and needs.

You also forget one key factor: Savings. Rich people, save a lot of money. They are able to do so, this money when not being taxed would force a massive hole into the Government's pocket. What do you suggest to do to cover this?

So what if rich people save a lot of money. It's there money they are entitled to do whatever they want with it. If I had a lot of money I would certainly want to save it as well. Why should a rich person have to pay a higher tax percentage than a poor person? To be politcally correct it sounds like prejudice to me. It's all relative, if for instance we had a flat tax of say 10% a poor person would be paying the same identical tax as a rich person. Of course the dollar values would be differant but the percentage is the same.

You can't suggest to lower the Government's spending, because doing so would result in a economic crash. You'd be laying thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people out of work.

so basically what you are saying here is that as a taxpayer I should have to pay for the politicians lack of financial planning as well as foot the bill for the trillions of dollars that the government has wasted on pork barrell projects, No bid contracts, and $1000.00 toilet seats. In addition why should the american taxpayers be required to send billions of our hard earned dollars in support of the governments of other countries. Oh, I'm sorry I forgot it's more important to be the world's policeman rather than take care of our own. With a comment like that it's no wonder our country is trillions of dollars in debt and our so called enimies are some of the ones that own that debt, and we wonder why so many americans are faced with foreclosure and massive amounts of credit card debt. The government certainly doesn't set the example it would rather keep the american people dumbed down so those in power can have more of our money.

How is this fair on poorer people?
How would you fill the economic gap without increasing the level of tax on utlities so that only the "elite" can afford it?

Well I tend to agree with an above poster that the only fair way to tax a civilization is based on usage. Perhaps utilities are not the only answer but possibly a part of the answer. I believe what is fair for the poor should also be fair to the rich, they should be taxed equally. How is it fair for the rich person to have to pay taxes when the poor person actually does not pay taxes and is given a free hand out. Do you realize how many hundreds of thousands of poor people actually recieve money from the government they did not earn? Why should they work harder to achieve a better life when they can sit on their keister and be mesmorized by the boob tube and all the disinformation that fills their brains.

Since when did our government become an adaption of Robin Hood where they take all our money and distribue it however they see fit. There needs to be checks and balances in effect. If a business ran it's operations like the governement did there would be no business, it would be bankrupt and all the management fired.



[edit on 10-9-2007 by photobug]

[edit on 10-9-2007 by photobug]