beyond science, beyond religion

A few quotes from Albert Einstein :

"No, this trick won't work...How on earth are you ever going to explain in terms of chemistry and physics so important a biological phenomenon as first love?"

"A human being is a part of a whole, called by us _universe_, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."

"I maintain that cosmic religiousness is the strongest and most noble driving force of scientific research."

"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." (Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton)

He also said "Imagination is more important than knowledge".
I hate when some 'science" person says to me : " No, that cannot be" without even thinking.
I say : Do not be afraid to imagine the most crazy possibilities , after that you can test them, if you have the means to test them
I don't want to hear : we can't test that, don't even imagine it.
Imagination is the most important tool we have



[edit on 13-8-2007 by pai mei]

Originally posted by pai mei
I hate when some 'science" person says to me : " No, that cannot be" without even thinking.

It's not just 'science' people who do that though.

I agree with the imagination stuff, science at its heart is creative. It's just grounded in empiricism.

It was a pity that Einstein couldn't imagine that 'god' may well ocassionally play with dice...

[edit on 13-8-2007 by melatonin]

Well, if quantum theory is real, and there is info in the quanta, then at least to me, everything was included in the first instance, even you, even love, even science, including everything. That makes something or someone responsible for including everything to begin with, and that is where science and religion meet as well as everything else. The only thing that is different is the spreading out of "Time" to disperse all the quanta of info that was in the beginning. I just do not know if any of that though means like some think nowadays that there is only fate or destiny. I hope that there is something that lets an amount of leeway, for perhaps that is what the Spirit is for afterall. At least to me without Spirit, there can be nothing that can not be explained as being like a computer, just a program, just another piece of quanta info. Perhaps with the Spirit it changes everything and leaves the decisions to mean something to anyone who is alive.

So, if the Spirit is not included and a person does not want to call it science then what is "beyond religion and science" is "Nonsense".

And "Nonsense" does not have to be equated with science or religion.

The reason for the Edit is because I had to deposit somthing in the throne stool.



[edit on 8/14/2007 by AmoebaSized]

What I think Sky is saying is that there is so much more to existance than this black and white, good vs evil, god vs no god, etc vs etc, etc, etc.. I want to blame society, but at the same time, nobody can teach someone to live outside the bubble so to speak, you must make that journey alone. Our understanding on matters such as faith and existance are nothing more than feeble and simplistic attempts to make sense of what we do not know. The issue isn't god vs no god or science vs religion, its much more vast and much more meaningful. Keep an open mind and let the universe guide you and you will enjoy the ride.

Originally posted by brigand
What I think Sky is saying is that there is so much more to existance than this black and white, good vs evil, god vs no god, etc vs etc, etc, etc.. I want to blame society, but at the same time, nobody can teach someone to live outside the bubble so to speak, you must make that journey alone. Our understanding on matters such as faith and existance are nothing more than feeble and simplistic attempts to make sense of what we do not know. The issue isn't god vs no god or science vs religion, its much more vast and much more meaningful. Keep an open mind and let the universe guide you and you will enjoy the ride.

Yes, this is exactly the purpose of the whole thread. There are millions of planets, dimensions, realities and experiences out there, and it seems some are focussed on one, two, or three of those millions of options. "heaven & hell" are two. "material, physical world" is a third. Is that all? No. With all the science vs. religion discussion I feel like someone is visiting Paris and exclusively focussing on the gutters of the city, saying "so, this is what the city is all about", ignoring the larger territory.

Originally posted by Quazga
Actually, the current dali llama,...

It really sounds as if you are not thinking about this, just reacting out of prejudice against religion in general./quote]

I loved that movie 'Seven years in Tibet'. I loved the boy who played the Dali Llama. Precious. They showed the actual Dali Llama at the end of the movie, I cried. Because to me, his life was precious. Not because what he believed but because I can love without any condemnation toward anyone. But that God it's God Spirit in me that made me that way. I use to be a bully of a little girl in Brownsville. So the others would be my friend in hopes that I wouldn't beat them up - LOL.

Most people have 'good reason' for their pred's against Religion. True Religion helps people. But on the other hand 'Religion that is out in the world' tears lifes and homes down. So, I don't blame anyone for a slight case of bitterness. I would be also, if I was given a bum rap. But it's not God's doing to destroy men's lives, but to Save. When The True God leads you beside 'still waters' follow He who leads, if it's not 'still waters': RUN!!!

1 John 4:1 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Tim 3:2-5

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5 ,...Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Jesus Is Real - let Him lead tearing down what needs to be torn down in the heart so that Love can come through and out to others,
Connie

[edit on 8/14/2007 by Jesus-Is-Real]

Religion is dogma that substitutes for true spirituality. Western religion banishes God to somewhere outside of nature and man based on the belief of original sin in the physical cosmos. Spirituality reclaims the ancient belief of God in nature and man, but is suppressed by the descendant theosophy of Roman Catholicism.

Science is the study of non-meaning. Evolution is correct up to the point that one wants to explain the peculuar configuration of life, then quantum lattice theory is needed. But, because science must avoid all meaning, connecting the two will be the very last thing science will choose to do.

Quantum physics provides a path to bridge science and spirituality for those who wish to do this. There is a quantum field lattice that exists as an "auxilliary fifth dimension" and from which all things emerge from. This was Max Planck's vision and it's very much alive at the Los Alamos Lab web site in the high energy physics area. Life is projected through this lattice as coherent energy, crystallizing into the shapes we see in and around us. Spirituality is the study of this nature and with it God. Christianity has taken us far away from this knowledge, resulting in the mechanistic mainstream science and material society.

There will be a return some day.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Furthermore, the way science is being practiced today it is mainly the study of what can be measured and seen with the eyes, rather than the study of everything. That is in no way expansive.

[edit on 13-8-2007 by Skyfloating]

Hello Quantum physics.

Pai Mei! Great Einstein post.


When it gets down to it, in order to be a scientist, you can't desire to be right. You just have to be willing to accept that you are wrong more often than you realize.

very well put Max. nice use of words.

as for you Toby (and others who think likewise): I dont need "quantum physics" to validate my spirituality. it seems that nowdays every new ager and meditator seeks the approval of or the label "modern physics" to justify certain concepts. These concepts have been around for thousands of years, behind the mainstream of religion & science. What physics is discovering and will continue to discover is only the very beginning, the tip of the iceberg.

To spark the flame I would like to add that religion and science as such are fine, but the way they are being taught and used is like a conspiracy against everything that makes me human and enjoy life.

Science: There is no God

Religion: Bow down to God

Neither of those options is in any way appealing to me. Why are they taught by society and school as the two main ways to view reality?

Skyfloating...

My take on the strange negative complicity between western religion and science is this. Pre-christian theosophies believed in God in Nature. Christianity invented the idea of God apart from Nature. This originated in the discovery of an "error" in nature, called original sin, that came from the slight irregularity of planetary orbits and musical scales. This difference is actually the slack between a cyclic standing wave and the natural logarithm needed for vibration to occur. Without this slack (like a piston in a cylinder) nothing moves thus nothing lives.

Nonetheless, belief in this "error" became embedded in mythology (Greek, Roman, Roman Catholic) as chaos or evil rather than harmonic balance. The early Christians took this as an inherent evil in Nature - especially in Man - and concluded that this was caused by Satan who "fell" to Earth while God stayed in Heavenly perfection. To close the gap between our banished western God, a saviour - half man / half God - was needed to provide a bridge of salvation.

As a result of this core philosophy, natural science could only be permitted during the Inquisition if it avoided any attempt to provide "meaning" to its findings. So, Christianity and Science joined hands in creating a meaningless worldview, devoid of spirituality, disconnected from God and entirely materialistic in its abuse of other people and the planet. The only thing left from the ancient worldview is embedded deep within the estoteric brotherhoods.

The Internet is the only possibility of changing the unsustainable and destructive path, though we might expect this to be well policed and cordoned off before long.

[edit on 15-8-2007 by Maxpageant]

I'll contribute to this subject the same way I have with countless others.

Double Slit Experiment and the quantum world.

if an electron can know that someone is observing it and change its movement, then why cannot a multi universal intelligence exist?

If an electron can be in multiple places at once, why can't a God do the same.

if time doesn't exist in the quantum field, and matter at this level can be on both sides of the universe, then why can't God exist here?

why is it that we have yet to find the true line from pre-ape to man. (I personally think God or ascended aliens from God put some extra genes in and did it)


Here, once again, is my vision of the multiverse. The original universe that God made is constantly braking into different realms of existence. The light is a quantum brain, or God, heaven, or the afterlife. (however you call it)




There is plenty of examples of God's work. I personally don't know how it is by chance that a caterpillar is able to simply, by chance, evolve to look like a snake. This suggests that the caterpillars ancestors said "hey look, the snake is feared, lets evolve to look like that so we are feared" which suggests the ability of a creature to control its evolution. And because caterpillars don't have brains that think that way, it was God.

There is a bacteria that is born in a stalk, gets pooped out, eventually finds its way into a frog, then alters the frogs DNA so that it mutates, and is incapable of moving. Then it is eaten by the stalk, where it reproduces, and restarts the system. how did a simple bacteria evolve to take advantage of a food chain. How did it know to alter DNA, and only frog DNA for that matter. How, by chance, did it evolve to "know" that by mutating frogs, it would get eaten by a stalk and able to reproduce?


Plenty of proof, just jump into nature and open your eyes to see it. Like your mother use to say (or still does ):

"Get off your ass and do some physical activity"!

[edit on 16-8-2007 by Gorman91]

[edit on 16-8-2007 by Gorman91]

Originally posted by Maxpageant
There will be a return some day.

That's the real irony here: Both Religion and Science started out with the same goal-to understand nature, the world around us, why things are as they are. At some point they diverged. Perhaps some day they will meet again and the real learning will begin again.
Right now they are looking at the same elephant, only from different ends.

Originally posted by Maxpageant
Skyfloating...

My take on the strange negative complicity between western religion and science is this.


[edit on 15-8-2007 by Maxpageant]

Again, very well put. makes sense to my mind.

Conclusion: The Power Monopoly on our minds is held by religion and science. They offer endless PREOCCUPATION in the form of fights against each other and fights among themselves. Once this power monopoly collapses under its own arrogant weight we will be left without orientation and security for awhile, but with the possibility to hook on to new concepts...maybe ones more of our choosing than ones forcefully shoved up our throats.

It is rare that someone actually chooses their religion, belief or empirical view of life. I respect those who have freely chosen their way of thinking. But most often it is indoctrinated into them when they are children and have to way of discernment. Then, thouroughly brainwashed by schooling and parents, they become grown ups and walk around everywhere defending their views as "my" and "my" and "my" opinions....

..to the extent that any type of NEW information is somehow made to FIT into their worldview. So lets say quantum physics comes up. The christian would that mold it to mean "yeah....physics confirms God. And by the way, you need Jesus to get there". And the materialist will go "yeah...physics is just another confirmation that there is no God." blablabla.

The Paradigm-Conspiracy may be the Nr. 1 source of preoccupation and conflict this world has.

Skyfloating wrote:
christianity vs. atheism
creationism vs. evolution
right wing vs. left wing

* both sides are belief-systems
* none of the sides are necessarily exclusive of each other
* Focussing on one of them or only on two of them, filters out a lot of possibilities that go beyond scientific-materialism on one side and religion on the other side.

The only limitations and boundaries we have in life are the ones we oppose upon ourselves and each other.

I'm neither left nor right, religious or scientific. I'm interested in anything and everything if it increases my understanding of this reality I find myself living in. The truth is all I seek. Why would anyone seek to impose a limitation upon themselves by only subscribing to one viewpoint or perspective and not the other. That just doesn't make any sense.

Skyfloating wrote:
To spark the flame I would like to add that religion and science as such are fine, but the way they are being taught and used is like a conspiracy against everything that makes me human and enjoy life.

Science: There is no God

Religion: Bow down to God

Neither of those options is in any way appealing to me. Why are they taught by society and school as the two main ways to view reality?

The answer is obvious It's all about control. Divide and conquer. Some people seem to think they have a right to tell other people what they can and cant believe in. Why anyone would listen to these types of people is beyond me.

A few quotes from Albert Einstein :

"No, this trick won't work...How on earth are you ever going to explain in terms of chemistry and physics so important a biological phenomenon as first love?"

"A human being is a part of a whole, called by us _universe_, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."

"I maintain that cosmic religiousness is the strongest and most noble driving force of scientific research."

"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." (Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton)

He also said "Imagination is more important than knowledge".
I hate when some 'science" person says to me : " No, that cannot be" without even thinking.
I say : Do not be afraid to imagine the most crazy possibilities , after that you can test them, if you have the means to test them
I don't want to hear : we can't test that, don't even imagine it.
Imagination is the most important tool we have.

Well said Pai Mei. I totally agree.

I personally believe in an energy based spiritual system within the universe. However I will put my beliefs aside for a couple of comments to add to discussion.

Science and religion will always clash, because they have differing methods for providing answers to questions that cannot be verified. It is all theoretical. Im not against religion whatsoever, in fact I would consider myself a "religious" person, because I am very interested in the teachings of most of the worlds religions and always like to hear different takes on things. The thing that always strikes me about the existence of god is that the arguments for his existence is that scientists cannot prove he doesn't exist, but surely if something doesn't exist, it doesn't exist.

There is no evidence that anyone has ever seen or spoken to god, just like nobody has ever seen or spoken to the boogeyman, and yet it is ok for people to say that god exists and the boogeyman doesn't. This isn't a dig at religion whatsoever, I just find it hard to comprehend in a world of logic. Not providing evidence of non existence is not an argument for the existence of something, if something doesn't exist, then clearly there is no evidence of any kind.

I seriously can't see how any god believer could attempt to refute this, because it is clear you cannot prove the non existence of something that doesn't exist and therefore it is surely a completely pointless debate! Believers have no evidence of existence, and since there can't be evidence of non existence because it contravenes the meaning of the term non existence, it should surely be assumed god does not exist!

[edit on 19-8-2007 by mrmanuva]

Originally posted by mrmanuva


I seriously can't see how any god believer could attempt to refute this, because it is clear you cannot prove the non existence of something that doesn't exist and therefore it is surely a completely pointless debate! Believers have no evidence of existence, and since there can't be evidence of non existence because it contravenes the meaning of the term non existence, it should surely be assumed god does not exist!

[edit on 19-8-2007 by mrmanuva]

Well..."you cant seriously see how"? Just look around you. There is plenty of evidence that SOMETHING amazing exists. Look at all those trees, all those stars in the sky. I dont find science explanation that much better than religions explanation. All these trees and stars are "coincidence" the scientist will tell me. "They are God" the religious person will tell me. I find both views similarily non-convincing, or to be more frank: Complete Nonsense. Which is why I suggest to go BEYOND science and religion , to rip the curtain off the wall of reality and demand to see what is really going on.

the reason I believe science AND religion to be a conspiracy is by the amount of attention and energy they have taken from people without giving too much back. every war waged on this planet is connected to religion (beliefs) and science (war technology). Evidence of the massive energy waste can be seen on ATS where two sides of the coin discuss and discuss and discuss about the same stale ideas again and again and again...without resolution.

I believe that teachings which cause more pain and struggle than relief and joy are untrue.