Mass Grave May Contain Thousands of Jews Killed by Nazis Found in Ukraine

Dark Crystalline - I don't expect you to agree with me, but I would be grateful if you would at least take the time read this.

I am 100% sure that they will find that those thousands in the mass grave are of Jewish and/or slavic descent. These are the people that they did not want in greater Germany, these were the people they were trying to get rid of. The christian Ukrainians, those not considered sub-human, were sent to the work camps to be used as slave labour. Jews and Slavs previously retained for labour were now considered too economically burdensome and were at this point in the war simply disposed of close to their point of origin. This was the entire purpose of the Einzatgruppen and as you would expect from the SS, they did an exceptional job. They were in the large part very proud of their actions and documented them well. In the Baltics and Ukraine they started the selection process early.

You make a fair point regarding Stalin. There is also though the consideration that many of those Balkan and Ukrainian Christians who died on Stalin's labour camps went from being liberated from slavery in the Third Reich straight back into slavery for Stalin. For those people the end of the war just meant a change of scenery.

The oft repeated six million figure comes from the records of the Nazis themselves. They may have boasted, many were very proud of the service that they were doing for the Germanic race. I always say that the numbers are irrelevant and I stand by that, but that is not to say I doubt them.

I have read many individual accounts from all sides and there is no doubt in my mind that the most incredible acts of atrocity were committed by the Nazis. Every deviant in Germany was given free reign to indulge their sadism on Jews and whoever else fell under their control.

If you were to do a search on anyone of the following names you would understand why it is not only possible but probable that six million jews were killed. All women, all at Ravensbruck the "Women's Hell". The inmates were all interred without trial, 90%* were Allied civilians, though the population included some captured Red cross nurses.

Dorothea Binz
Greta Boesel
Margaret Mewes
Carmen Mory
Vera Salvequart
Elisabeth Marschall

If this is how 'humans' were treated, why are we so doubtful about those they considered 'sub-human'.

Supressing holocaust denial has nothing about the Jews and the six million. As likely as the six million, to me, is that the 'non-Jewish civilians' who died through slavery was even greater than has been reported. That the medical experiments carried out were at the behest of some prominent companies, institutions and organisations is also probable. If you were Porsche would you want people knowing that you formed your company on profits gained from slave labour and that you have not paid any reparations, in fact did they even say they were sorry?

As long as we're looking at the Jews we're not looking at them. Do the Jews have control or do the people who profited from slavery have control?


What is interesting about the article is that it states that the Jews were rounded up into ghettos by the Germans. To my knowledge this is not true. The Jews had in fact been ghettoised in this region for a significantly longer period than that, before Hitler was even a twinkle in his Daddy's eye in fact.

en.wikipedia.org...

So there is some subterfuge or at the very least ignorance going on with the reporting. Though the Einsatzgruppen did quickly 'liquidate' the Jewry in the Ukraine is in no small part because they were already prepared for them. As these people were slavic jews they were by Germanic standards not even human. If you doubt me read some of the testimony from those that were in these units.

It should also be noted that the Baltic states of Lithuania and Latvia, prior to the SS arrival, got started destroying Jewish property and managed to murder 3,800* jews before the Germans arrived to finish off the remaining 120,000+*. The local partisans had some experience with pogroms and helped the SS in this work. The Nazis should not be allowed full credit, Katyn serves as testimony to that.

*The Scourge of the Swastika by Lord Russell of Liverpool, New York 1954

WWII was a giant "holocaust" in and of itself. We all know about the zionist plot to overthrow the world because of sympathy for the poor Jews. I've had enough of this dribble. You are not fooling me!!

Originally posted by seagull
You know ignoring Truthseeka sounds like a plan, at least until he understands the concept of what's humorous.
[edit on 5-6-2007 by seagull]

Oh, so funny is what YOU define it as? Get outta here. Y'all don't get to set the standard on EVERYTHING...

For anyone who doubts the holocaust happened, I suggest you google and read transcripts from the Nuremburg trials.

Here is an excerpt:

IMT XXXIIIRudolf Hoess: I commanded Auschwitz until 1 December, 1943, and estimate that at least 2,500,000 victims were executed and exterminated there by gassing and burning, and at least another half million succumbed to starvation and disease making a total dead of about 3,000,000.

I chose this one because Hoess is very well known.
In his own words he stated that the nazi's murdered 3 million people of Jewish descent at just one concentration camp.

If you can stomach some of the confessions you will find that the Germans
made soap from the fat of dead Jews ( I hope that is a pc term), made purses and other items from the skin of murdered Jews, confiscated all their belongings, even one horror where they placed 20,000 Jews in a simulated village then launched an experimental weapon on them that totally obliterated them without leaving a trace.

These are transcripts from the trials at Nuremburgh quoted from those who committed these atrocities.


Only a person with the mind of a bigot would try to persuade others that the holocaust never happened.

Just because bodies were found,why did the Nazi's have to kill them?

It is widely known that 100's of thousands if not MILLIONS of people died at that hands either directly or indirectly of the Communist regime.(INCLUDING the Ukraine region)

Russian top official Zinoviev stated: "Without mercy, without sparing, we will kill our enemies in scores of hundreds. Let them be thousands; let them drown themselves in their own blood. For the blood of Lenin and Uritzky, Zinoviev and Vólodarsky, let there be floods of the blood of the bourgeoisie-more blood! As much as possible!" (Krasnaya Gazeta, Sept. 1, 1918?)

These relatively prosperous and independent peasants were called kulaks. They were regarded as capitalists within a Communist State. They resisted strongly against collectivization of their holdings. And communists used sterner, more brutal measures. Whole villages were compelled, by force of arms, to accept the collectivization of their holdings. Some 2 million kulaks with their families – perhaps 8 million people altogether – were driven from their homes; some were killed as they were being expelled; many starved to death; and many more were driven into Siberia.

Russian famine of 1921, which began in the early spring of that year, and lasted through 1922. Food and grain was confiscated by Red Army and communist party members to supply St. Petersburg and Moscow shops, while peasants (mainly Volga and Ukraine steps) where left to die from starvation.

Warning = Graphic Images
"Famine in the Soviet Union, 1921-1922 - Photographs and Postcards"

BLACK FAMINE IN UKRAINE 1932-33

You just have to love the typical Knee-Jerk reaction when something like this is uncovered how fast the Nazi's get blamed.Stalin was no saint either.

[edit on 5-6-2007 by Bootyac]

Originally posted by Bootyac
Just because bodies were found,why did the Nazi's have to kill them?

It is widely known that 100's of thousands if not MILLIONS of people died at that hands either directly or indirectly of the Communist regime.(INCLUDING the Ukraine region)

Russian top official Zinoviev stated: "Without mercy, without sparing, we will kill our enemies in scores of hundreds. Let them be thousands; let them drown themselves in their own blood. For the blood of Lenin and Uritzky, Zinoviev and Vólodarsky, let there be floods of the blood of the bourgeoisie-more blood! As much as possible!" (Krasnaya Gazeta, Sept. 1, 1918?)

These relatively prosperous and independent peasants were called kulaks. They were regarded as capitalists within a Communist State. They resisted strongly against collectivization of their holdings. And communists used sterner, more brutal measures. Whole villages were compelled, by force of arms, to accept the collectivization of their holdings. Some 2 million kulaks with their families – perhaps 8 million people altogether – were driven from their homes; some were killed as they were being expelled; many starved to death; and many more were driven into Siberia.

Russian famine of 1921, which began in the early spring of that year, and lasted through 1922. Food and grain was confiscated by Red Army and communist party members to supply St. Petersburg and Moscow shops, while peasants (mainly Volga and Ukraine steps) where left to die from starvation.

Warning = Graphic Images
"Famine in the Soviet Union, 1921-1922 - Photographs and Postcards"

BLACK FAMINE IN UKRAINE 1932-33

You just have to love the typical Knee-Jerk reaction when something like this is uncovered how fast the Nazi's get blamed.Stalin was no saint either.

[edit on 5-6-2007 by Bootyac]

Hmm... Good find Bootyac. Instead of jumping the gun and assume that remains of jews were found you have to look further. That means researching the topic. Ukraine should have been a big clue.
I will admit I missed that.

Originally posted by intrepid

DC, let me break it down for you. If you post in this manner in the future, which is against the T&C, you WILL be warned.

Post accordingly.

You may want to review this persons other posts. Its getting really smelly around here. I need some fresh air.

Originally posted by Dark Crystalline
"I strongly recommend that you do that."

Sorry, but I believe threating is not in your job's list. I will do as you ASKED, but I don't like if someone is threating me, okay?

Intrepid isn't threatening you; he is simply doing his job as a moderator reminding you of the rules of conduct required of all here on ATS.

Originally posted by Dark Crystalline
Seagull. Horror? Where? Don't cry please. There are no evidence that those were Jews. Forget please this "Jews are the victims everywhere". So, where from you know that they were Jews? Please tell me. I'm really curious. Or you're just making the whining false propaganda too. Remember. You're turning to a liar too, a guilty person if you're spreading false propaganda.

Did you read the part where it said The Nazis established two ghettos during World War II near the village ? I guess your the kind of person that believes copper comes out of iron mines. Also Jewish officials believed that mass graves were located in the region, yet didn't know the exact locations. And it seems that they have, in fact, located most of these mass graves.

Originally posted by Dark Crystalline
Just to make this clear, we're hearing this Holo-business stuff day by day and we're pretty bored of it. Don't use the death of others to make new lies please. And if you're covering them, you're become one of them.

I guess any change, or development in understanding of, history that doesn't agree with your world 'view' is 'boring' isn't it?

Originally posted by Dark Crystalline
Don't dramatize, please. You've changed the words, because both of them are starting with H. It's History, what you wanted to say, not Horror. It's cruel, it's happened decades ago, cannot be changed. It's history. You know what horror really is? When an IDF thug is shooting down some unarmed Palestinian children or when an Israeli is passing through an innocent American Woman with a Dozer on why not basis. Now, that's the horror of nowadays. But what we seeing here, it's history.

*Cough cough* drama *cough cough*

Originally posted by Dark Crystalline
Plus, I already took this to the another thread, which is about this topic... I just read at YNet... title, 'We must figure out their names'... well, if you need to figure out something, it's already a hoax. You should learn their names, not figure out, you moron. You Jews always failing on these little, itsy-bitsy details.

Wow. There is really no other way to put this but as stupid.
Do you honestly think that the Nazis put nametags, or plaques or other identification by their bodies:
Einsatzgruppen:Throw the passports and birth certificates in now, Heinrich!
Also to 'learn' and to 'figure out' the names of the victims really is splitting hairs. And attempting to place names to unknown bodies really is the 'itsey-bitsey details'.
You've cornered us! Every person that believes, or can prove, that the Holocaust exists MUST be a Jew! Or a Homosexual! Or a Gypsy! Or Freemason! Or any other participant in a race/religion/organisation that was persecuted during the Holocaust.

Originally posted by Dark Crystalline
not hating you, I'm not hating Jews.

Compare with:

Originally posted by Dark Crystalline
You Jews always failing on these little, itsy-bitsy details.

Hypocrisy at it's finest.

Hitler killed alot of people and thats a fact. Those that deny it or don't belive it are either ignorant to the facts, or so blinded by thier own hate they lie to justify thier beliefs.

My grandfather didn't land on Omaha Beach Normandy for no reason.

Bootyac and Leyla - you frighten me – you know absolutely nothing of the history and yet you think you are denying ignorance. There have been countless mass graves found in the Ukraine, the majority of which contained soldiers and those killed in Stalin’s purges. This one is unusual because it contains naked corpses of what seem to be old people and children. People not fit for labour. This is the Nazi ‘signature’.

Do a Google search and you will see that hundreds of mass graves have been found, no-one is denying the actions of NKVD in the purges.

www.youtube.com...

Throughout the forests of the region are mass graves belonging to all sides. Why do you find it so hard to believe that jews were massacred as well as everyone else. 6 million in the overall statistics is not many, horrifying as that is. I can understand that your attention span would prohibit your ability to read my previous post but you really should at least try to understand that the people that start wars and inflict their ideologies on others do not care about any of us, only of themselves and their own. It doesn’t matter what colour, shape, religion, size, age or gender that we come in, if they can exploit us and discard us in a mass grave they will.

The opinions of those who think that the holocaust is a fabrication, that six million jews did not die only confirms to me that it can happen again. The victims may not be the same but it can and has happened again, look at this story running today.
(Kosovo –
www.upi.com...)

It will continue to happen for as long as people like you bury their heads in the sand and fall for the anti-semite brainwashing that makes you blind to the truth.

Before you claim to know more than those that have actually viewed these thousands of bodies and countless other mass graves, therefore knowing the difference, perhaps you should educate yourselves a little instead of parading your very obvious ignorance here.

Killing people at random in the region currently called Ukraine has been common since the stalins first massacares at the begining of the bolshevik regime.

But if the grave contained un-fit-to-fight bodies, it probably points to either Einsatzgruppe extermination or retribution against partisans/HIWIs families. But a mass-grave itself rules out that the action waws carried out by "german" anti-partisan units such as Dirlewanger or Kaminsky as they often did not bother to bury the bodies. Leaving us either NKVD retribution or Extermination of Non-Aryan. 1000s of people were killed in the region by both USSR and the 3rd Reich.


Ps.
As for the holocaus denial, i've been accused of that. But my opinion is that Jewish numbers have been played up a little by mixing up political and criminal elements executed at the same camps. Does it matter? not really, but taking the numbers killed as a gospel is not wise... Anyway it was the second worst crime committed in the history of mankind, the worst was a political experiment called USSR...

Where did I make any 'Anit-Semite' remarks in this post?I am only stating the FACT that there were alot of Ukrainians killed/died in this area by OTHER MEANS than at the hand of the Nazis.It is also a KNOWN FACT that in Vinnitsa,the NKVD shot over 10,000 people alone.

I am fully aware of the fact that the Nazis shot alot of innocents (does their race color,creed REALLY matte?people are people)in this region as well.However,I wont rush to make a judgment on who killed who until the FACTS are in other than they 'fit a profile'.(btw the weak i.e the young/elderly are more subjetable to die of starvation as a young able bodied male)

So Kilgore Trout,you think I don't know what I'm talking about?Well this is a subject I have studied in great depth for 20+ years,and if you want to openly debate me any time on all areas of Genocide/Holocaust I will gladly accept such a debate.

"cough" here you go.

www.youtube.com...

leaving hope video (holocaust camps before during and after)
Not pretty....

Music by nine inch nails.

Watch at your own discretion.

[edit on 6-6-2007 by toraylin]

I can't believe anyone would be arguing about the race of these unfortunate souls.I don't care if they were black,white,jewish,muslim,alien or what....life is sacred,and cartloads of people being killed and dumped into a huge hole is a travesty.

Why can't people understand that for all our petty squabbling we're all in the same boat.We're all human,we're all trapped here on Earth together,and one of the basic human rights we have is to live (or try to live) a good life,and die in peace.NOT be murdered for some stupid cause,be it religion,war,whatever.People were murdered....that's a bad thing.End of story.

Originally posted by BugZyZuncle
Actually, the nazi's had hundreds of concentration camps in the Ukraine. They were notorious for wiping out entire villages and towns.

Do I believe the bodies were found? Yes 100%

Do I believe they were all Jews? No

I have a friend of mine and about 30 years of history with her and her husband. They are both Concentration camp survivors from the Ukraine, they are both Ukrainian and both have the numbers tattooed on their arms, they are not Jewish, nor were many of the people in their camp, they were Ukrainian.

I heard stories over the years that made me wonder why on earth human beings treat each other like this.

This elderly couple is one of the kindest, most compassionate pair I have met in my entire life.

I know many Jews lost their lives in WWII, but the fact that many other cultures and races were killed, in the camps and not acknowledged is wrong.

I wish instead of assuming that every mass grave found is Jews, they would tell the whole story, not just the part the plays to an individuals race and culture.

May all of these people rest in peace and may their loved ones that survived find the peace also.

[edit on 6-6-2007 by Realtruth]

Originally posted by Bootyac
Where did I make any 'Anit-Semite' remarks in this post?

I am fully aware of the fact that the Nazis shot alot of innocents (does their race color,creed REALLY matte?people are people)in this region as well.However,I wont rush to make a judgment on who killed who until the FACTS are in other than they 'fit a profile'.(btw the weak i.e the young/elderly are more subjetable to die of starvation as a young able bodied male)

I at no point accused you of making any anti-semitic remarks, I implied that you were a victim of anti-semitic brainwashing. Why immediately imply that the experts examining this grave know less than you do? Countless, though by no means all, mass graves relating to Russian actions have been found. This grave is unusual because it has what appears to be Jewish civilians in it. Had you searched the other news agencies you would have found that the New York Times for one is reporting that the 'corpses' found are naked and predominately old women and children. Those not fit to work, stripped of all assets including clothing.

It is rare to find a grave like this in the Ukraine, unlike the NKVD graves they tend to be in secluded areas and forestry, this one was only found when laying gas pipes.

Originally posted by Bootyac
So Kilgore Trout,you think I don't know what I'm talking about?Well this is a subject I have studied in great depth for 20+ years,and if you want to openly debate me any time on all areas of Genocide/Holocaust I will gladly accept such a debate.

Then you should know better. I don't claim to know all there is to know about the actions and circumstances of World War II, but I am always willing to learn so if you can shed further light or would like to debate a particular issue I am more than happy to do so - What would you like to discuss?

In fact perhaps you could clarify the point I made in my original post, regarding whether the SS established Ghettos in the Ukraine as reported by both Fox and BBC news services. I am sure that they didn't, that the ghettos were actually set up by the Russians over a century before. Do you know whether this is the case or not?

Originally posted by Realtruth
They are both Concentration camp survivors from the Ukraine, they are both Ukrainian and both have the numbers tattooed on their arms, they are not Jewish, nor were many of the people in their camp, they were Ukrainian.

As I explained earlier, as soon as the SS occupied the Ukraine they rounded up the Jews, many were killed by partisan groups prior to the Germans arrival in fact. It was nolonger considered economically viable to transport the Jews to labour camps in the occupied territories and Germany - they already had more than enough to get rid of. They had millions of non-jewish workers from the occupied territories to serve as slave labour. You were only safe from the labour camps if you were fortunate to be German, by that point they had weeded out all undesireables from their own country so the Germans slept safely in their beds unlike the rest of Europe. Your friends have no doubt explained to you how the work details were 'recruited' from the occupied citizenry.

The Jews were surplus to requirements - this is why there were no Jews in the camps in the Ukraine because they were dead as soon as the Germans arrived. The Jews were rubbish to be disposed of so they would never again contaminate the master race. Einsatzgruppen A through D were set up for this very purpose.

I like the way that they say "may contain" they are already taking possesion of the bodies before an ID is made....... I wonder if the numbers will now go from 6 millions to 7 millions???........ I mean, if there was ever 6 or 5 or 4 or 3 or 2 or even 1.

Realtruth. They aren't saying they are Jews, they are saying they may be Jews. Odds are good that they are, but they may not be. Let's wait until all the evidence is in before we go to either extreme.

No one, least of all I, deny that many, many others aside from those of the Jewish faith died at the hands of the Nazi's.