Can We End the American Empire Before It Ends Us?

When you register to vote you can elect to be a volunteer at your local voting district. You can help make it better on your end. We still need to infect higher ups with the virus of truth.

America has been involved in a mismanaged war for 4 years. This has resulted in overreaction by our elected officials as things have degraded to the point where we are stuck in a morass.

It was mismanaged from the outset. We didn't send enough troops. We let our politicians run the war. After it was apparent that the war wasn't going to be wrapped up in a year's time, people started jumping ship. The dissident voices grew louder, and the MSM played their part to the hilt.

Was it a malicious screw-up by our leaders? Was it pre-planned? Not imo. I think it was a large dose of incompetence mixed in with a huge dose of impatience.

Our pre-packaged society wanted a war that could be neatly summed up on the 6 o'clock news, just so they could get back to watching Seinfeld re-runs and voting for the next American Idol. They didn't get it. And Ron Paul isn't going to give it to you, either, sorry to say. The way Washington works nowadays, it will take more than a popular idealist to change things.

Meanwhile, we have no obligation to apologize to the rest of the world just because we are the only superpower that exists.

Originally posted by jsobecky
America has been involved in a mismanaged war for 4 years. This has resulted in overreaction by our elected officials as things have degraded to the point where we are stuck in a morass.

It was mismanaged from the outset. We didn't send enough troops. We let our politicians run the war. After it was apparent that the war wasn't going to be wrapped up in a year's time, people started jumping ship. The dissident voices grew louder, and the MSM played their part to the hilt.

Was it a malicious screw-up by our leaders? Was it pre-planned? Not imo. I think it was a large dose of incompetence mixed in with a huge dose of impatience.

Our pre-packaged society wanted a war that could be neatly summed up on the 6 o'clock news, just so they could get back to watching Seinfeld re-runs and voting for the next American Idol. They didn't get it. And Ron Paul isn't going to give it to you, either, sorry to say. The way Washington works nowadays, it will take more than a popular idealist to change things.

Meanwhile, we have no obligation to apologize to the rest of the world just because we are the only superpower that exists.

This is shortsighted. We elect people to lead, so it is not out of the question to ask them to lead. A malicious screw-up is harsh. Negligent perhaps, and there are elements within our government who may have had this war "in the can" waiting to be let out, but you also can not put this on the entire American public either...we lost over 3,000 people at one shot in the highest profile location in our country.

As much as I'd like to point the finger of blame somewhere in Washington D.C. on Pennsylvania Ave., the president is also subject (supposedly) to the emotions that run through people when bad things happen.

I still remember how the man sat for eight minutes listening to a book about a goat with school kids when he got the news.

What we have is not the result of expedient government...because if that were the case, the package would have been far more slick than it was...we have a case of being blinded by fear - fear that our way of life will disappear, that our SUV's won't have cheap gas, fear that missles could be dropped on our children's heads in the form of airplanes flying overhead, fear of being the world's super power and yet now being rendered powerless.

If you stab a giant in the eye with a stick, first thing that's going to happen is the giant will roar and reach for its eye in pain. Then it will begin reaching wildly around to find the thing that poked it, but it won't find the little thing so fast, because it can't see out of the poked eye.

We've been poked, we're still stumbling in the dark, and the US can't seem to figure out that it needs to rest and care for the eye before doing anything else.

As for apologizing: you are right jsobecky, we don't need to apologize. But like any person or kid, we had better be prepared to clean up our mess after we're done playing in Iraq.

Pottery Barn fits. We broke it, now we gotta pay for it...and help the shop keeper clean up.

Originally posted by newtron25
This is shortsighted. We elect people to lead, so it is not out of the question to ask them to lead. A malicious screw-up is harsh. Negligent perhaps, and there are elements within our government who may have had this war "in the can" waiting to be let out, but you also can not put this on the entire American public either...we lost over 3,000 people at one shot in the highest profile location in our country.

I agree that we elect people to lead. However, we don't live under a dictatorship. Bush has been stonewalled by a Democratic party that has no equal for animosity in recent memory. They truly deserve their nickname of the "Do Nothing Congress". Kerry, Clinton, Reid, Schumer, etc., have done nothing for the past six years except to play partisan politics. All they have done is blame Bush for everything, while offering no alternative solutions.

And I have not laid the blame at the public's feet. Not all of them, at least.

As much as I'd like to point the finger of blame somewhere in Washington D.C. on Pennsylvania Ave., the president is also subject (supposedly) to the emotions that run through people when bad things happen.

Yes, he's only human, with the same failings that we all have. But look no further than the Congress if you're looking to point the finger in Washington.

What we have is not the result of expedient government...because if that were the case, the package would have been far more slick than it was...we have a case of being blinded by fear - fear that our way of life will disappear, that our SUV's won't have cheap gas, fear that missles could be dropped on our children's heads in the form of airplanes flying overhead, fear of being the world's super power and yet now being rendered powerless.

I keep hearing that "living in fear" mantra from the same crowd, but I'm not seeing it. The "police state, martial law, loss of rights living in a concentration camp" horror show has not materialized as we have been told it would.

There is a certain element in our society that is afraid. And desperate. They are the crowd who has the New York Times as their spokesperson and their Bible. They are so desperate to get a Democrat in the White House that they are willing to destroy the US in their efforts to do it. They are the ones who want to control you, not the neo-cons. The liberal fringe want to convert the US into a full-fledged socialistic state, complete with cradle-to-grave entitlements and income redistribution. Increased taxation will pay for all of it. There will then be true two-tiered society, which is what they are striving for. They want you to become completely dependent upon the government, because that way, they will cement their hold over you.

There is a certain element in our society that is afraid. And desperate. They are the crowd who has the New York Times as their spokesperson and their Bible. They are so desperate to get a Democrat in the White House that they are willing to destroy the US in their efforts to do it. They are the ones who want to control you, not the neo-cons. The liberal fringe want to convert the US into a full-fledged socialistic state, complete with cradle-to-grave entitlements and income redistribution. Increased taxation will pay for all of it.

There will then be true two-tiered society, which is what they are striving for. They want you to become completely dependent upon the government, because that way, they will cement their hold over you.

It's not hard to imagine a person who puts such elegant military hardware as their background image to support the continued industry of war.

The liberal fringe is the biggest target neo-cons have. That's why they always aim there so they don't have to risk missing...again. Just like they missed with good ol' GWB.

As for increased taxation...don't speak for me. I don't want taxation any more than anyone else does. However, I do know that fair taxation is based on each individual paying their share. Some of the wealthiest, and it is no crime to be wealthy, tend to like to hide between the definition of being an individual and being a business. Speaking from the middle of the middle class, that is baloney with a capital B.

No, being dependent on the government is the most gigantic red herring you have thrown out there so far. I have a secret I want to share with you...lean closer.....

We Are The Government!!!

You can't fly this thing on autopilot, Charlie Sheen! And you can't just preen your feathers and make the rest of the world look at how lovely an eagle you are either. Hubris, over-inflated ego is what has been the achilles heel for our leadership...the world's superpower, repect my authority.

Okay, now what??? "Duh, more oil?" Just protecting your citzenry is not the end. It's not enough to say to people, "Here, we've given you what you need. Me and the VP are going to bowl a few frames in the basement if you need us."

Leadership is a responsibility. If Geo.Jr. was doing his job, you and I wouldn't be looking at a Congress we have today. You wish we could be free, but you don't want to own it. Freedom is not do what you want no matter what. Freedom is not compiling the most wins in a season by a sports team. Freedom is inclusive, continuous and uncompromising in its need to be granted to each person willing to embrace it.

If you decide to war with somebody but do it at the expense of another, then you're not free. You've just taken two steps back.



[edit on 18-6-2007 by newtron25]

Originally posted by newtron25
It's not hard to imagine a person who puts such elegant military hardware as their background image to support the continued industry of war.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you implying that my avatar reveals me as a warmonger?

The liberal fringe is the biggest target neo-cons have. That's why they always aim there so they don't have to risk missing...again. Just like they missed with good ol' GWB.

The exposure of the fringe's disnfo campaign has nothing to do with conservative's disappointment in GWB. It is true that many conservatives are disappointed that he turned out to be a conservative in name only, but we could say the same about a lot of other Republican Senators and Representatives.

No, the shame of the liberal fringe belongs to them alone. They donned the cloak of the churlish malcontent all on their own, and they deserve the scorn that thinking people heap upon them.

As for increased taxation...don't speak for me. I don't want taxation any more than anyone else does. However, I do know that fair taxation is based on each individual paying their share. Some of the wealthiest, and it is no crime to be wealthy, tend to like to hide between the definition of being an individual and being a business. Speaking from the middle of the middle class, that is baloney with a capital B.

It sounds to me like you're trying to gussy up income redistribution. You are in favor of progressive taxation. The rich already pay a disproportionate amount of income in the form of taxes. But the "working class hero" chant always plays well in Peoria.

No, being dependent on the government is the most gigantic red herring you have thrown out there so far. I have a secret I want to share with you...lean closer.....

We Are The Government!!!

The more that you embrace liberal fringe philosophies, the less you are "the government". They push for entitlements and higher taxes. To what end? For control of your life. To make you complacent. To stifle ingenuity and entrepeneurship.

Hubris, over-inflated ego is what has been the achilles heel for our leadership...the world's superpower, repect my authority.

Sorry, I'm not part of the John Kerry crowd that would put our foreign policy to a "global test". You may crave the acceptance of every second-rate despot in the world, but you'll never get it. The more you grovel before them, the more they will hate you.

Leadership is a responsibility. If Geo.Jr. was doing his job, you and I wouldn't be looking at a Congress we have today. You wish we could be free, but you don't want to own it. Freedom is not do what you want no matter what. Freedom is not compiling the most wins in a season by a sports team. Freedom is inclusive, continuous and uncompromising in its need to be granted to each person willing to embrace it.

It rained on the weekend I wanted to have a cookout. Damn that George Bush! It was all his fault!

I don't count on politicians to make my life a bed of roses. I do what it takes to take care of me and mine. I am free.

For you to blame Bush for the (in)actions of this Congress is naive, I'm sorry to say. It's easy to talk about freedom. Sounds great with patriotic music playing in the background, too. But for most people, that's as far as it goes.

Edit typos

[edit on 18-6-2007 by jsobecky]

First, and foremost above everything else I say, I am sorry for your cookout. I am a dad and was most fortunate to have good weather, but dad's everywhere need to have that day a their own...even if it is an invention of greeting card companies.

Originally posted by jsobecky

Originally posted by newtron25
It's not hard to imagine a person who puts such elegant military hardware as their background image to support the continued industry of war.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you implying that my avatar reveals me as a warmonger?

No, what I am saying is your support is clearly toward a world controlled by rather than influenced by countries of power.

The liberal fringe is the biggest target neo-cons have. That's why they always aim there so they don't have to risk missing...again. Just like they missed with good ol' GWB.

The exposure of the fringe's disnfo campaign has nothing to do with conservative's disappointment in GWB.This again is another "pot calling the kettle black" moment, Jso. All is truly fair in politics. Even disinfo...that is unless it is true. It is true that many conservatives are disappointed that he turned out to be a conservative in name only, but we could say the same about a lot of other Republican Senators and Representatives.

No, the shame of the liberal fringe

~~~...wait...liberal fringe is code for what? the extremely small percentage of liberals in general? Kinda like saying you hate white people because of just a few of them, no?~~~~~

belongs to them alone. They donned the cloak of the churlish malcontent all on their own, and they deserve the scorn that thinking people heap upon them.

And the neo-cons have always worn the mantle of granite-headed, bible-thumpin', God fearin', flag-wavin'.....blah, blah, blah... Scorn is for third grade teachers on students for not clapping the erasers. Puh-lease.

As for increased taxation...don't speak for me. I don't want taxation any more than anyone else does. However, I do know that fair taxation is based on each individual paying their share. Some of the wealthiest, and it is no crime to be wealthy, tend to like to hide between the definition of being an individual and being a business. Speaking from the middle of the middle class, that is baloney with a capital B.

It sounds to me like you're trying to gussy up income redistribution.

~~~It sounds to me like Scrooge McDuck is beating people off of his pile of gold coins!~~~~~

Income redistribution is what every neo-con goes immediately toward to bring up the specter of...don't say it Ronald Reagan!...Communism!?! Oh, those straight-jacket wearing liberals want us to hand over all of our poker chips so even immigrants, children and hamsters can have an income.....wrong, wronger, wrongest. That is not it by a long shot. The entire tax system is a sham. You know this, but because it currently favors the rich, who are so awfully weighed down by it, there's really no need to change it, right? If the tax system were fair, a flat tax or something else could be put in place but the truth is, an audit could come flying at you probably as easy as an email. That would put a crimp in your semi-annual trip to the Seychelles, huh?

You are in favor of progressive taxation. Flat tax. Don't put neo-con words in my mouth.The rich already pay a disproportionate amount of income in the form of taxes. But the "working class hero" chant always plays well in Peoria.

No, being dependent on the government is the most gigantic red herring you have thrown out there so far. I have a secret I want to share with you...lean closer.....

We Are The Government!!!

The more that you embrace liberal fringe philosophies, the less you are "the government". They push for entitlements and higher taxes. To what end? For control of your life. To make you complacent. To stifle ingenuity and entrepeneurship.

You don't get it. Freedom, as one person once said, is not the ability to shout "fire" in a crowded theatre. I am all for obtaining wealth. I would enjoy vast sums of money, but in a free society, it also means responsibility to the environment in which those dollars were made! Hey, I know! Let's go fishing at the local pond. 12 of my best friends and I will use fishing poles, and you can use a stick of dynamite and a fishing net. Sound fair? You're welcome to do it, but restocking the pond at least half way when you're finished isn't too much to ask, is it?

Hubris, over-inflated ego is what has been the achilles heel for our leadership...the world's superpower, repect my authority.

Sorry, I'm not part of the John Kerry crowd that would put our foreign policy to a "global test". You may crave the acceptance of every second-rate despot in the world, but you'll never get it. The more you grovel before them, the more they will hate you.

There is a vast difference between craving the acceptance of 2nd world despots....and making them exist in a global community short of blowing them off the face of the earth, Tex.

Leadership is a responsibility. If Geo.Jr. was doing his job, you and I wouldn't be looking at a Congress we have today. You wish we could be free, but you don't want to own it. Freedom is not do what you want no matter what. Freedom is not compiling the most wins in a season by a sports team. Freedom is inclusive, continuous and uncompromising in its need to be granted to each person willing to embrace it.

It rained on the weekend I wanted to have a cookout. Damn that George Bush! It was all his fault!

~~~ That was the poorest analogy I have read in a while. The weather is uncontrollable. At the very least, what Geo. Bush does can be influenced by what input you have through your Congress and through your voice. You can also vote.

I don't count on politicians to make my life a bed of roses. I do what it takes to take care of me and mine. I am free.

If you don't count on politicians to make your life a bed of roses, why are you allowing them preside over atrophy, to enable decay and to continue with the status quo? Taking care of you and yours in a free society means more than stocking up on rounds of ammo, provisions and buying plenty of land for when the time comes. Being free is not just enjoying what you have. It's maintaining and preserving the system that allowed for that gift.

For you to blame Bush for the (in)actions of this Congress is naive, I'm sorry to say.

Okay then, Cap'n Airstrike, how's this for naivete: Bush left such a thorough mess for "this Congress" that they have been left few options as to how to repair the damage. It's only convenient for neo-clowns to continue to blindly point at what the Democrats can't do as opposed to owning up to what they actually did do to this country. I'm sorry to say!

It's easy to talk about freedom. Sounds great with patriotic music playing in the background, too. But for most people, that's as far as it goes.

Freedom is not just your brand of freedom or mine. But turning our backs on the process is dangerous. I believe your response to my original post shows that you'd rather care for "you and yours" instead of really being a patriot like the throngs of O'Reilliots enjoy doing...to a never ending soundtrack of Bill O'Reilly muzak. Hmmmm, hmmmm, hmmmm, I can't hear you, hmmmm, hmmm, hmmm. Progress this.

Edit typos

[edit on 18-6-2007 by jsobecky]

Bush does seem to be our Julius Caesar, so I only give it a matter of time before the walls of America cave in.

Originally posted by jsobecky
Sorry, I'm not part of the John Kerry crowd that would put our foreign policy to a "global test". You may crave the acceptance of every second-rate despot in the world, but you'll never get it. The more you grovel before them, the more they will hate you.


~~~~

Oh, I get it. So, you're part of this crowd? Rove and Company??

Bush aides "lose" White House E-Mail


Remember, Tony Snow is no longer a member of the press...he now speaks for the White House.

Originally posted by newtron25
No, what I am saying is your support is clearly toward a world controlled by rather than influenced by countries of power.

Believe me, I'd like nothing more than for the US to have a looong period of peace and prosperity. A time when we could reduce our debts and work on solving domestic problems. But unfortunately that does not seem to be in the cards for the foreseeable future.

~~~...wait...liberal fringe is code for what? the extremely small percentage of liberals in general? Kinda like saying you hate white people because of just a few of them, no?~~~~~

Liberal fringe is the element that has taken over the Democratic party. It includes the most powerful people in that party, and they are not exactly few in number.

I count among them Clinton, Kerry, Kennedy, Reid, Kucinich, Schumer, Pelosi, Boxer, Dean, and others. All lean way out there on the fringe. All share similar credos of higher taxes, strict gun control, loose immigration policy, and apology as a foreign policy.

I grew up as a Democrat in a Democratic city in a Democratic state. Today's Democratic "leaders" are nothing like the ones I knew. Even today, I espouse some Democratic ideals. I'm not even a strict Republican, but I am more conservative than when I was younger. I am basically an Independent. I could not in good conscience vote for any of the people I listed above.

~~~It sounds to me like Scrooge McDuck is beating people off of his pile of gold coins!~~~~~

Income redistribution is what every neo-con goes immediately toward to bring up the specter of...don't say it Ronald Reagan!...Communism!?! Oh, those straight-jacket wearing liberals want us to hand over all of our poker chips so even immigrants, children and hamsters can have an income.....wrong, wronger, wrongest. That is not it by a long shot. The entire tax system is a sham. You know this, but because it currently favors the rich, who are so awfully weighed down by it, there's really no need to change it, right? If the tax system were fair, a flat tax or something else could be put in place but the truth is, an audit could come flying at you probably as easy as an email. That would put a crimp in your semi-annual trip to the Seychelles, huh?

The tax system is broken. It does not favor the rich. It is a progressive system.

But which party is more in favor of lower taxes? Try to get the Democrats to lower taxes. See what happens.

You don't get it. Freedom, as one person once said, is not the ability to shout "fire" in a crowded theatre. I am all for obtaining wealth. I would enjoy vast sums of money, but in a free society, it also means responsibility to the environment in which those dollars were made! Hey, I know! Let's go fishing at the local pond. 12 of my best friends and I will use fishing poles, and you can use a stick of dynamite and a fishing net. Sound fair? You're welcome to do it, but restocking the pond at least half way when you're finished isn't too much to ask, is it?

Why are you bringing the environment into this discussion? Talk about false premises, you're trying to push the old canard that you are more environmentally responsible than I am, and that Democrats are more responsible than Republicans, and that the poor are more responsible than the wealthy.

I don't know where you got that idea, but it is a lie.

If you don't count on politicians to make your life a bed of roses, why are you allowing them preside over atrophy, to enable decay and to continue with the status quo? Taking care of you and yours in a free society means more than stocking up on rounds of ammo, provisions and buying plenty of land for when the time comes. Being free is not just enjoying what you have. It's maintaining and preserving the system that allowed for that gift.

Your posts are very hard to follow, because you go off on tangents so much. You put up premises that have no foundation. You presume knowledge of me that you do not possess.

I'm not going to waste time defending BS premises, like "allowing them preside over atrophy, to enable decay and to continue with the status quo". What you say makes no sense, is a personal attack, and is an attempt at derailing the thread because you have no sound argument.

Please, take that BS somewhere else.

One man's BS is another man's perfect sense.

I can't help it if you are unable to follow my thoughts.

A classic example of this is when I used the word "environment." It had nothing to do with trees, water, ecology or saving the planet. All it meant was to explain how each one of us affects each other, and the person beyond and the next person beyond that by each and every action we take.

My whole rant about freedom, which admittedly was a bit tangential (sorry for the larger than normal word!), was meant to focus people on how the American Empire need not end or end us either.

You can just as easily take your views elsewhere. Last time I checked this entire forum was free, including this thread.

You still haven't really responded to the link about the Rove Whitehouse "disposal" of vast sums of email...how convenient.