UK Expands Surveillance!

OK, Perhaps there's another way of looking at this!

I've kinda read most of the posts, admittedly not all of them as it got rather repetitive! And thought it was time for my two penneth worth.

Firstly I'm British, English to be exact. Lived here all my life but travelled extensively both personally and professionally. I live in a middle class area.

Last week at around midnight some little scrote's walked past my girlfriends car and keyed it for no reason other than something to do....I chased them up the road with a 9 iron, luckily they were faster than me!
Two months ago the disabled sister of a good friend of mine was mugged, she's still in hospital!
Two weeks ago one of my best friends had his cheek bone smashed by some drunk meathead outside a nightclub.

The meathead has been charged with GBH thanks to him being caught on CCTV! The muggers and the scrotebags got away un-touched, free to go on and do the same again, or worse...why? No CCTV!

As far as I am concerned bring it on....put the things everywhere! Get the scum off the streets. 99% of the time video evidence is undisputable, far less corrupt than any police officer!

I'm not a believer in the 'if you don't have anything to hide why are you worried' arguement but at the same time I have no problem with someone in a control room watch me walk down the street, I'm sure they'd get bored pretty quickly!

If cameras mean I don't have to worry about my girlfriend walking home at night, or my Grandmother going to the shops on pension day, or parking my shiney new car somewhere i've not been before then I'm all for it!

ID cards no, cameras hell yes!

Cheers

Robbie

Those are definatley good points Robbie, which is what makes it a difficult argument. We have had some criminal damage on our property before and considered installing a camera which i guess is an example of it on a small, private scale.
It is a funny place is the UK with the whole "chav" issue(not all of them of course), I dont know if that sort of things anything other countries suffer from, and its difficult not to sound like a pompous snobby ass when talking about them because they all seem to have elected to get state benefits rather than a job, waste their cash on big screen TV's and ugly looking cars and when theyre not producing more offspring theyre causing social issues.

Yes, it's the attitude of some people in Britain that spoils the place, especially the chavs and yobs. And maybe cameras will help catch some of them, but that is looking at just one part of the issue here. The bigger picture is that our society is steadily being monitored more and more until one day it will just become too much but by then we wont be able to do anything about it. And if it was to go so far that in a few years our government was to turn totalitarian/police state, there would be no way for us to protest it or escape it because we allowed them so much control and surveillance today.

The Entire World Will All Eventually Be Covered In A Huge Camera Network. It Is My Personal Belief That This Has Already Started. It Will Become An Administration Orientated World With A Totalitarian Twist. In Other Words, A Free Mans Nightmare,

It All Starts With The Expansion Of The CCTV Networks To Cover 1 Camera For Every 5 People.
Then The ID Cards Will Be Implemented In Each Country,
An International ID Card System Will Become Commonplace And Will Feature Heavily In Our Day To Day Lives, (Swiping In And Out Of Buildings/Rooms)
Then The V-Chip Will Be Offered As A Way To Combine Both Systems, It Will Be Done In Such A Way That The Unsuspecting Public Will Welcome It As A Relief To The Constant Swiping And Monitoring By Cameras

(The Ostrich Syndrome: If You Stick Your Head In The Sand Then It Isnt There)

New Powers Will Come Into Governments And Use These Technologies To Control The Worlds Economy And With Such Controls The World.

When That Happens Thier Mandate Whatever It Is Shall Be Enforced Or You Will Be Wiped Off The System, Pennieless, Alone, Outcast, No Way Back Into The System, You DIE A REPROBATE!


This May Seem Extreme But This, I Believe, Is The Future Of Our So Called "Crime Prevention" Tools

More fuel for the fire, so to speak:

'Stop & Quiz' comes under fire

Basically there are proposals for British police to be allowed to stop and question any citizen, all police need is "reasonable suspicion" and refusing to co-operate could result in a hefty fine of £5000!

There really doesn't seem to be any justification for this law and I hope that these powers will not be given to police. Of course you may argue that only the guilty need to worry, there is something unnerving about the police having powers to do this, and the possibility of being fined/arrested for not co-operating.

However, I think the talk of the UK becoming a totalitarian police state is absurd; at the moment at least. Nazi Germany was totalitarian, the Soviet Union was totalitarian, the UK is not.

All the increased surveillance in the UK is a result of there not being enough police to patrol and prevent crime (a comment about there not being enough police was mentioned by another UK member on here but I forget who) and this is a problem for UK citizens, not because it may lead to a police state, but because it will mean more crime.

Your average hooligan will not be deterred from committing a crime because of a CCTV camera, he will be dettered by a police officer across the road telling him to stop...he will be even more deterred if the police officer has the power to beat him to ground without the risk of being sacked.

We in the UK do not need more CCTV cameras, we need more police with real powers to stop criminals, and any UK citizens should be more concerned with this than with these far-fetched Orwellian views espoused by some members on here. (Although saying all that I do have doubts about David Kelly's death & 7/7...)

Kudos Lemox.

The camera surveillance issue in the UK has always worried me, but I am more worried that the system is in the works for the United States.

Chipping is definitely on the horizon. Right now, all internet activity can be monitored. There are very few places that we citizens (US and UK) will be able to go (if any at all) were we can express ourselves with total freedom from monitoring.

Even parking attendants are wearing cameras on thier heads

Attendant Cam

Originally posted by at_risk
Even parking attendants are wearing cameras on thier heads

Attendant Cam

Thats probably so they can play it back on their mobile so they know where they are !!

The meathead has been charged with GBH thanks to him being caught on CCTV! The muggers and the scrotebags got away un-touched, free to go on and do the same again, or worse...why? No CCTV!

And thus, the answer to the CCTV 'problem' is found.

A person may complain about a "Police state", until the CCTV system protects you or someone your close to and allows justice to be done.

The police cant be everywhere, cameras can.

Zeltar- Im trying to read your post, but it makes my eyes bleed and my brain hurt.

Why Are Their Caps On Every Word?!

Basically there are proposals for British police to be allowed to stop and question any citizen, all police need is "reasonable suspicion" and refusing to co-operate could result in a hefty fine of £5000!

Who wouldnt stop? What possible reason would a person have to not stop beyond slashed brakes?

Of course you may argue that only the guilty need to worry, there is something unnerving about the police having powers to do this, and the possibility of being fined/arrested for not co-operating.

As i just argued.

People seem to think of Police as some kind of monster/robot/alien when they are actually just people.

reply to post by stumason


One simple anser to why the NWO did'nt use the Nazi's to take over the world could be,Hitler said NO.

[edit on 10-9-2007 by Project_Silo]

Originally posted by Shadowfigment Flipmode

Chipping is definitely on the horizon. Right now, all internet activity can be monitored. There are very few places that we citizens (US and UK) will be able to go (if any at all) were we can express ourselves with total freedom from monitoring.

There are plenty of places in the UK where one can go without ever seeing a camera or even a policeperson.

Stop generalising.

People wont Stop Generalising, my friend. It allows them to find 'proof' no matter how ambiguous the evidence.

Originally posted by stumason

Stop generalising.

You have - and I'm sure you probably knew it anyway - my sympathies with that lament Stu.

I posted - either earlier on this thread or in response to another slab of uneducated paranoia, how many cameras I pass on my 16 mile round trip to work (1 speed camera on an acute sweeping motorway bridge) and how many I pass on the 136 mile round trip I do every other weekend (6 Highway Agency traffic monitoring cameras on the motorway). I live on the M62 Corridor between Leeds and Manchester, which is one of the most heavily traversed and populated areas on Northern England,and my regular bi-weekly trip takes me through Manchester, Warrington and down to Stoke.

These people think that there are cameras on every streetlight, and in every street. Quite frankly they don't know their backsides from there elbows and no matter how much you try and educate you simply cannot and will not get the message through. You may as well slap your head up the wall.

reply to post by kozmo


this is a point i'm facinated with, since i live in london, and get caught on camera 375 times a day, and now the fact they can pick up what i'm saying is a frightening thaught. we've had a lot of camras for a long time but this "nanny state" theory is becoming less of a theory. and its all being done under the sheild of terrorism, because with terrorism a country can do whatever it feels necessary to protect itself (essentially monitor its citizens). and i just keep wondering how long untill we are under mass control? 50 years? 100 years? hey maybe even 15! i dont know but it frightens me

Ho hum.

I have to say that this is really not that difficult to understand. We live in a society where we are crammed together more and more and the thoughtless or antisocial actions of the few have a greater and greater impact on the lives of the many as a result.

This effect can be overcome to some extent by employing more and more police and security services and supplementing this with other surveillance technologies such as cameras.

So we have a choice; do we as citizens want to try to prevent the "few" dominating the "many", do we want to enable the majority to go about their lives in a responsible and law abiding manner as far as is possible without being intimidated and threatened by the "few", or are we prepared to let our communities descend into uncontrolled ghettos of anarchy and fear?

It really is that simple.

Yes, it is all about monitoring and control; control of the bad guys, monitoring of the activities of those who would do us harm, (assuming we are the good guys), and it is an inevitable by product of such activity that the good guys get monitored as well - you don't like that? well sorry, but learn to face up to reality a bit sharpish. Should we use cameras or policemen? - well that's up to us as citizens but if we want the kind of coverage that cameras give us by using real live police than we'd better all be prepared to pay a lot more tax to fund it.

Is the level of monitoring too high? Well, I guess we'll all have different opinions about that but my guess is that those who object the most to cameras on our streets are those that have either not benefited personally from the security they bring or those that would rather like to take advantage of the lack of such security.

Originally posted by kozmo
Can anyone in the Uk tell me what the heck is going on!? You've got cameras everywhere - now they have microphones on them to catch your audio as well. Now this - Police can set up speeding cameras anywhere!

I don't know about you but in the U.S. one cannot be charged civilly for a criminal offence. In other words, here in the U.S. an actual HUMAN BEING employed as a police officer MUST witness your crime AND cite you personally in order for the charge to stick. The use of speeding cameras are being challenged in the courts and the FREE people are winning.

I am curious as to why UK citizens are allowing this to happen in their society? Who governs who? Where is the uprising from the citizenry demanding an end to this? Or is this is a welcomed event in your society? I'm not mocking; I genuinely want to understand why you have become the modern Orwellian 1984 Big Brother society and yet it appears to the outside world that there is a tacit acceptance of this? Please share your opinions as I am floored over these recent governmental transgressions against your frredoms. Thanks in advance.

typical yank

you lot think we all sit around wearing bowler hats and drinking tea, whilst
being watched by big brother

why don't you just go get yourself another coffee from starbucks and stfu

pillock

[edit on 29-9-2007 by samgbsn]

Haven't read all 8 pages of this thread....sort of spot checked.

I've never been to the UK so I will be talking about what I know as an American Citizen.

Not more than a year ago, a 12 year old posted her opinions on myspace.com because she didn't like Bush. Granted he is the President...but this young lady is only 12 years old. The Secret Service went to her school and took her away and interrogated her without her parents present. The school aparently did not even notify her parents. Not only that, the info she had put on the site was already deleted because she went on to another topic....the Bush info appeared on her site about 3 months prior to her interrogation!!!!!!!!

There are cameras everywhere you go and shop, restaurants, etc. I can't believe at this point that America Citizens believe that those cameras are just to catch shoplifters, etc. If you don't see the little bubble (camera) what about a mirror or those mirror reflectors that a manager can look at from anywhere in the store or in his office.

Face it in America, you can't scratch your nose without someone seeing it!

Starting tomorrow it's about to get even worse.

The control freaks that are New Labour now want to monitor everyone's phone calls and starting next year, the internet and your emails too. This new law comes into effect tomorrow. Soon there will be no privacy left. What's next, video cameras in our homes. All this information will be available to various organisations and they tells us it will be safe and secure. This has got to be one of the biggest infrigements yet on our civil liberties and freedoms and yet there wasn't even a single debate about it in the house of commons and here's me thinking we live in a democracy. Unbelievable!!! No more banking by telephone for me then. Gods knows who might end up with my bank details. Once the law comes into effect you'd have to be crazy to do any business over the phone. This new law will only lead to even more crime, fraud and corruption.

Another New Labour no brainer: Never thought in my wildest dreams that I would ever vote for the Tories, but for me the next election cant come quick enough.

www.dailymail.co.uk... Big brother Britain.

Officials from the top of Government to lowly council officers will be given unprecedented powers to access details of every phone call in Britain under laws coming into force tomorrow.

The new rules compel phone companies to retain information, however private, about all landline and mobile calls, and make them available to some 795 public bodies and quangos.

The move, enacted by the personal decree of Home Secretary Jacqui Smith, will give police and security services a right they have long demanded: to delve at will into the phone records of British citizens and businesses

One person wrote:
Personally I think the majority of the UK is so dumbed-down now that all it cares about are cookery, lifestyle and reality TV shows (with faked results) and that actually standing up to the death of democracy is beyond them.

That about sums up the UK under New Labour. Couldn't of put it better myself. This country is becoming a joke.



[edit on 30-9-2007 by kindred]

I'm from the uk, and personally the only cameras I dont like are the speed cameras in areas where they are more or less money grabbers.

Now my wife and I was attacked by a drunk neighbour of cause we called the cops which took 45mins because the only ones in the city with suitable equipment to quell what could of blown up into a major problem was busy at the other end of the city. Now if we had CCTV in the streets which is commonplace in some of the larger cities he would of been arrested and banged up for drunk and disorderly, criminal damage and whatever else charged with.

CCTV in the city center for myself has made me feel so much safer being there after dark when the beggars and hookers muggers etc all come out to play.

Oh and I still dont think the UK is a police state far from it, we have maybe one copper regularly doing the 'beat' around this area and maybe 2 PCSO (Police community support officers) who have no other powers then a normal citizen.

Having plenty of cctv up around towns/ citys to stop thugs and young people doing crime is one thing. The other, well just yesterday while i was in london they had a police van on the side of a road in Oxford street which out of the top of the van had a huge camera surrounded by a cage and had a small tv style mic coming out the top. This police van seem to be just randomly parked on the side of the road. The camera just looking down the sidewalk looking at passers by. What i couldn't figure out was why? Just walk down oxford street and u can count a camera every few passes.

Every time i go up central i see more and more cameras. I tell people about it and they just don't seem to care. gen reaction of ""so what? Pont is people are soo use to it. EVEn if we are not a police state atm, they could enforce it over nite probably without anyone even being aware of it.