UK Expands Surveillance!

I have been very outspoken on the idea of cameras and ID cards.

The mobile speed traps have however been around for years and are in my view not a massive problem. Afterall speding is a crime and can be dangerous, the easy thing here would be don't break the speed limit.

Mobile speed traps aren't part of a faschist state really, what is more worrying are the speaking cameras which are now being rolled out into multiple counties. The fact that these cameras are to use childrens voices, making adults feel they are being told off (a form of psychological warfare).

The idea that ID cards are volentary is laughable as well. Also it used to be criminals that had their fingerprints and DNA taken. Now it is taken if you are simply detained without charges. Also people who have commited aabsolutely no crime and were simply helping an investigation have had their details put into the database.

We are all being treaty as criminals, this is a scary start to the end of democracy.

I live in the UK and I heard ages ago about the millions of cameras watching us. It was only a couple of months ago while shopping that I noticed these devices. I can tell you it was genuinely spooky watching those things on top of the buildings twisting and turning around then looking directly at me. They are everywhere. Recently my son was photographed at school, he was asked many security questions and then to make up a password. This is for a card he has to use to pay for school dinners, he can no longer buy lunch with cash. He also needs the card for libraries, buses, swimming baths etc. though can still use cash for them, for now. I complained when I heard of this going on behind my back but was told it had nothing to do with a national I.D card, future cashless society etc. It was to stop children getting their lunch money stolen at school. Now they have to queue up with a weeks money in their hands to put it into a machine at the school. Doesn't make sense. You can't smoke in a public building. This means you can't walk anywhere safely at night because the pubs are surrounded by drunk people all standing outside having a fag. The law says people should not be allowed to congregate into even small crowds. This law is enforced when you want to protest something. (These peaceful protestors are called rioters on the news.) In many areas, including my own, on a Friday night there are large crowds of youths, (one night I counted over 70) mostly under-aged, drunk and making a scene. When you call the police, they do a drive by and nothing is done. People are being given on the spot fines for dropping litter. This week a baby in a pram dropped a bag of crisps. Her gran picked them up and kicked two into the gutter and was fined £75. A woman threw a cheesy wotsit out of her car window and was fined £80. There's worse going on. Dangerous repeat offenders are given bail all the time. Offenders released from prison are given extra money on their release if they're heroin users. They're given free lodgings straight away, including satellite TV, stocked food cupboards & all other mod cons and, they jump the housing queue. Then they're given money to buy furniture, clothes, bus fares, (some get tickets that can take them round the county for free, any time they want). Tagged criminals are slipping the tags off using baby oil. They say it's too tight when getting the tags on so they're nice and loose to begin with. If they can't get the tags off they unplug the modems from the wall and slip out to steal anyway. Nothing is done about this and the experts still say tagging works. I've heard that in the US you can end up in jail, lose your job, house etc. for being caught with a gram of coke. In the UK I've seen a single bloke with a list of previous offences as long as your arm (40-50 of them) getting out on bail (again) the next day after battering an old lady to the ground for her pension. Serious sex offenders are given houses upstairs or next door to families with children. They are given anonymity and have only to be supervised for about an hours visit a week. They must also go to regular meetings, also about once a week, with offenders of the same type. They are told "don't get on the same bus when you leave this office". ????????? I knew of one who bought a rabbit he used to take on a leash to the local park to show the kids. This guy was on a licence. Social workers did nothing . The innocent majority are being treated like criminals and the criminals are being very well rewarded in the UK. This is fact. I can't think of any reason why it should be like this other than it's some kind of conspiracy to have us live in controlled chaos.

Originally posted by shrunkensimon
Well, considering we still have a Royal Family, who alot of people actually like/are sympathetic towards, its no suprise we are so far down the highway to hell..

The royal family has limited powers and cannot do anything that would realisticly hurt the general public.

They are not some innocent bystanders. They are complicit, if not directly involved, in whats shaping the world today. They money trail comes back to London. England was part of the USA's birth history, aswell as Israels. Infact, England itself was once referred to as "Israel".

Oh so I take it that the other 3 states in the united kingdom are not worthy of being mentioned I take it? I guess that poor old scotland, wales and northern ireland are just "tools" in englands empire?
Whether or not we are involved in any world shaping is another matter entirely, infact I would not be suprised if we were involved greatly in the worlds shaping. We are not the american tool that many think , we may have lost our empire but we have not forgotten how to influence.

More importantly, the history of our country, the hidden history, is what stands out for me personally. Stone Henge is not just some pile of rocks. It is connected in more ways than one with the Pyramids in Giza, although i don't want to waffle about this in this thread. the point is IMO that England is a very important location.

I find it rather annoying that you say your from the united kingdom but still discuss our union like england is the controlling power.
You may believe what you want, thats your god given right but frankly lets keep to the matter at hand here and not bring in stone henge or pyramids.

Is it coincidence that we are GMT, Zero time

Uh no because we are at the centre of the world , literally, because we have GMT run through nodnol.
en.wikipedia.org...
Hence the world focus's its time zone.

... that we have the Olympics here in 2012,

Uh because we put in for it?


Look you believe what you want just please try and show a little respect , how about that?

Originally posted by kozmo
Can anyone in the Uk tell me what the heck is going on!? You've got cameras everywhere - now they have microphones on them to catch your audio as well. Now this - Police can set up speeding cameras anywhere!

I don't know about you but in the U.S. one cannot be charged civilly for a criminal offence. In other words, here in the U.S. an actual HUMAN BEING employed as a police officer MUST witness your crime AND cite you personally in order for the charge to stick. The use of speeding cameras are being challenged in the courts and the FREE people are winning.

I am curious as to why UK citizens are allowing this to happen in their society? Who governs who? Where is the uprising from the citizenry demanding an end to this? Or is this is a welcomed event in your society? I'm not mocking; I genuinely want to understand why you have become the modern Orwellian 1984 Big Brother society and yet it appears to the outside world that there is a tacit acceptance of this? Please share your opinions as I am floored over these recent governmental transgressions against your frredoms. Thanks in advance.

Yes they can set them up, and yes there has been a massive backlash, people have even formed clubs to blow up speed camera's.
A favourite method of messing with them is to wrap them in clingfilm, so they can't read number plates.
The best method is to fill them with expanding foam which gradually hardens - this pretty much destroys them
There have been instances of them being packed with fireworks and blown up.

You have to understand that this is purely a money making measure by the authorities, and us brits can't get that worked up about it and just treat it with the contempt it deserves.

Thanks Lemox, great post! That's what I was trying to say when nefor jumped all over me.

You folks over in the UK should know that we see what's going on over there and it's scary - not just for you, but what it can mean for us in the U.S. We are very much kindred spirits in our societal norms and values; our victories and our woes. Normally those things "Accepted" in your society find evidence in our own and vice-versa.

What is interesting, at least to me, is that it is being portrayed here in the U.S. as business as usual in the UK - that everyone in on board and loves the idea of constant surveillance. The whole point of this thread was to open up some dialogue across the pond so the those of us state-side can get a better grasp of what is going on over there. Sadly, some posters feel that this is some type of cultural attack - it's not.

How and when did this start? How did they introduce the concept to the citizenry? How was this program broadened to the extent that it is now? How is this being protested? Is it yielding any results - positive or negative? Etc... This is fascinating as we have openly discussed so many closed door conspiracies in these forums yet this topic seems to only get attention when something earth-shattering happens that either a.) dramatically increases the type or amount of surveillance or b.) said surveillance yields some type of victory - as in the case with the 7/7 bombers. Yet this happening RIGHT NOW! Before our very own eyes! Yet I feel like we (And I use we because I feel that our nations are linked as stated before) aren't doing anything - or at least enough- to combat it. This is no longer a "Conspiracy" as it is in the open and generally speaking, public knowledge. But it is the GREATEST piece of evidence of the "other" conspiracy often discussed - the NWO.

Thanks so much for all of your thoughts on this as I am really trying to understand this in intimate detail.

Thanks for the props shrunkensimon and Brilliant post wigit.

Personally shrunkensimon I think that society, at least the UK society, is too far gone to WAKE UP, what I mean is people just dont care, and those who do are in the small minority and thus are easily branded by the media/police officals/or even their neighbours as troublesome/rioters or maybe even terrorists.

The growing survillance i.e to record EVERYTHING you do and say is so these people cannot:
- First gain support by 'waking up' more people.
- Then act against the government.

The system is designed so real thought into current issues and questioning the actions of those in power is discredited and instead trivial knowledge is encouraged.
If my sociological knowledge serves me correctly, I think it was Adorno who said that people are kept passively happy, that is happy to the extent that they wont rebel, through consumer fetishism (basically getting the latest and greatest).

It pains me to see society turn as shrunkensimon said, into a high tech prison for your body, mind and soul. Living in university, I get first hand experience of the up-and-coming generation, and most are happy to extinguish all their freedoms, using the phase 'if you got nothing to hide you have nothing to fear'. They also on the whole do NOT care about current issues, in this country or worldwide at all, I mean really, they watch TV, read celeb magazines, and go out on the weekend. And most are planning to do this for the rest of their lives. If any news gets digested they believe exactly what their told...this is becasue of the conditioning in education where is also discredited to question what you are being taught.

Regarding what wigit said about the school situation, in my school I was fingerprinted to get a library card, this was a good few years ago now.
Concerning what wigit said about drug offenders, as im currently studying law I have first hand experience to back up what your saying as I spent time in the courts from time to time.
For example: A guy has 200 tablets of Ecstacy, says they are all for himself, and as its a first time offender (first time caught more like) he gets 200 hours community service, but there was clearly intent to supply.
Also I have seen repeat offenders get let off time and time again.

To have us live in a controlled chaos is exactly the plan. Think about it, keep the citizens scared by releasing prisoners, not punishing criminals so they are not detered, threats of terrorism, not trusting your neighbours etc, means everyone is very willing to give up rights and freedoms to 'protect themselves' against everyone else. All the while this 'controlled chaos' is monitored and tracked on all the survillance devices used.

Hi kozmo just saw your post after I posted mine.
I feel that the UK is the 'test subject' for the US, im not quite sure the situation over there but am I right in saying that US citizens are not as happy with the constant surivillance etc like the UK citizens are? Or are more willing to protest about certain issues? I do feel that with the 'special relationship' the UK and the US has, that the UK is somehow the testing ground for the NWO's plan to see how a society will react to, well, whats happening in the UK, and once they have the NWO 'template' so to speak, they can implement it on other countries to spread across the globe.


[edit on 18-5-2007 by lemox]

[edit on 18-5-2007 by lemox]

The innocent majority are being treated like criminals and the criminals are being very well rewarded in the UK. This is fact. I can't think of any reason why it should be like this other than it's some kind of conspiracy to have us live in controlled chaos.

Do you remember 'The Simpsons' episode where Homer touched a woman's backside to peel off a sweet and was only saved from prison by Willie, the Scottish janitor, who had filmed the event from a bush? Willie said that :"Every Scottish person" does it!"

Well I believe that I was a test case for 24 hour surveillance 20 years ago in Scotland. My car was bugged. My house was bugged. Fibre optic cameras were used everywhere I went, including places of work. Since then, by common consent, society carries forward all the lessons learnt from the Scottish people who thought they were fighting crime but ended up lining their own pockets from the Public Purse. Lesson to be learned from my experience - if you stand for nothing you will fall for anything. I am still survelled 24 hours a day and a member of the ATS Forum has seen it! The truth will come out!

Yeah, lemox - that is my primary fear. They are testing this "System" out on you guys to begin rolling it out the whole of the EU and the U.S.

I really appreciate you taking the time to carefully explain yourself. I am particularly interested in your comments regarding students in University and their take on all of this. I was led to believe that the generation coming up behind my own was much more politically active and socially aware. You comments would indicate the opposite, however that may be a cultural variable. I do not know... perhaps a U.S. based university student would like to offer some insight.

The old adage, "If you've got nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear" is complete BS. I think a majority of us on the forums would disagree entirely with that - although I've seen the dissenters. So what next? What can be done?

I agree, complacency abounds. The term "Sheeple" seems very fitting as people flutter about aimlessly self-consumed by their own narcissism and self-serving endeavors. People need to wake up! See what is happening! We lost everything that was ever meaningful - family, neighbors and society and turned into consuming drones. But like I said, what to do? It would seem that the protest needs to start where experiment begins - in the UK. What is being done to end this?

brilliant post wigit.

I personally think its all designed to further the gap between the classes.
your either going to work your ass off because the living cost are way to high, or you are going to be a tagged criminal.

choose one, but whatever you are at the mercy and the control of the government.

Just wait till good old gordon gets in.

Cant wait for carbon emissions tax , higher car tax , End of free banking , Fuel cost rocketing.

We may not be living in a police state yet , but they are certainly laying the foundations.

I think that people in the US sometimes mis-understand us Brits.
We are a nation of contradictions.
We have cynicism mixed with patriotism. We do not accept these things, but we rather take the long view, which can look like acceptance, bit isn't.
As in "well it won't be forever, pretty soon we'll have a different government with a different set of rules and beliefs and we'll have to put up with their bullplop"

The difference between the US and the UK is that we understand that by having constraints you have a more free society.
This is in no way intended as an insult, merely an observation.

This obsession with "freedom" and "conspiracy" is a peculiarly American phenomenon.
It happens nowhere else in the world.
In some respects this is a good thing, in that US people constantly strive to question and change things, trying to make a better country.
In other respects it can have a negative impact, in that it can negate the improvements US strives for by looking backwards rather than forwards.

I believe that the great strength of the US lies in the constant quest for enlightened government, and this should be applauded.

However, ours in the UK is a completely different culture - and we do have a national culture rather than a series of infomercials and soundbites - we do not view these things as you do in the US.

This not to say that we are better - this is just to say that we are different.

Once you have a guinea pig then the rest becomes easy. People just do not care about anyone else. The materialist pleasures dazzle them and even the genocide of millions can be ignored if the television does not feature it. Approximately 1 million people have died in Iraq including 500,000 children but because dead and maimed people are not shown on the news, most people pass it by. If the news had a change of heart and showed pictures of the dead there would be a huge clamour for the war to end and we can't have that can we? At least not until the oil runs dry - sorry - until we have restored a democratic Government... Like I said, if you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything!

Originally posted by Heronumber0
Once you have a guinea pig then the rest becomes easy. People just do not care about anyone else. The materialist pleasures dazzle them and even the genocide of millions can be ignored if the television does not feature it. Approximately 1 million people have died in Iraq including 500,000 children but because dead and maimed people are not shown on the news, most people pass it by. If the news had a change of heart and showed pictures of the dead there would be a huge clamour for the war to end and we can't have that can we? At least not until the oil runs dry - sorry - until we have restored a democratic Government... Like I said, if you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything!

Can you give reliable sources for these figures?
They are much different from the ones I have read.

And please include figures for the number of people who haven't been tortured, rapes, oppressed, abused and had their human rights taken away like happened under saddams regime.

I'd like to point you in the direction of some thoughts I had on this matter:

www.abovepolitics.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...


[edit on 18-5-2007 by budski]

[edit on 18-5-2007 by budski]

Well summarised lemox, there really is a lot of things that show that we are slowly losing our freedoms. And no one cares!

I was talking to someone about it today and they said that they would rather lose their freedoms than lose their life to terrorism.

But either way you lose your life, whether it be to terrorism or to fascism.
And tbh, i'm not that scared of terrorism atm, maybe we're overdue for a 'terrorist attack' or something , but I quite like living in a liberal society. A lot better than a fascist one anyway.

Originally posted by Heronumber0
Well I believe that I was a test case for 24 hour surveillance 20 years ago in Scotland. My car was bugged. My house was bugged. Fibre optic cameras were used everywhere I went, including places of work. Since then, by common consent, society carries forward all the lessons learnt from the Scottish people who thought they were fighting crime but ended up lining their own pockets from the Public Purse. Lesson to be learned from my experience - if you stand for nothing you will fall for anything. I am still survelled 24 hours a day and a member of the ATS Forum has seen it! The truth will come out!

Can I ask why you think this happened/is happening to you and who do you think is doing it? And, what Scottish people do you mean?

Originally posted by kozmo
You folks over in the UK should know that we see what's going on over there and it's scary - not just for you, but what it can mean for us in the U.S. We are very much kindred spirits in our societal norms and values; our victories and our woes.

No offence mate but I dont see us as kindred spirits, more like distant cousins. Your country was born in fear of the royal families , my country was born in relatively the same way but we overcame that fear and joined with england, wales and ireland.

What is interesting, at least to me, is that it is being portrayed here in the U.S. as business as usual in the UK - that everyone in on board and loves the idea of constant surveillance.

Its not that we love surveillance we just realise one very simple fact: If they wanted to do it then they have the power.
Read up on the acts of 14th intelligence during northern irelands troubles, believe me if the government require to get information about you..they can manage it without your knowing.
Frankly we're content to let them think they are in control but , this is just me speaking here, to be honuest they are no where near ready to implement total control over an entire area. In NI and in the latest set of riots they were completely overwhelemed. Its not a question of ability to watch us, its the ability to control us if we dont like them doing so.

How and when did this start?

What total government surviellance? Oh thats been around for a good few decades atleast, very obvious through both world wars. "Careless talk costs lives"?

How did they introduce the concept to the citizenry?

I dont understand, you mean the government watching people or the fact that its now a norm?

How was this program broadened to the extent that it is now?

Through various attempts to stop crime and for the publics cry for action.

How is this being protested?

Protested? Yeah there are protestors but frankly I dont really care for that lot, they believe what they want but if they ruin my day or try to impose thier self rightous beliefs on someone I frankly feel unhappy with them.
The ends do not justify the means.

Is it yielding any results - positive or negative?

Well I'm not sure of the results but it does help catch people.

This is no longer a "Conspiracy" as it is in the open and generally speaking, public knowledge. But it is the GREATEST piece of evidence of the "other" conspiracy often discussed - the NWO.

Believe what you want, but frankly I doubt this whole "conspiracy" theory. If they wanted to hurt us: Physically, mentally or civily they would be able to do it easily and without trace. You mainly note one recuring fact: There is good in everyone and even if they dont act on it first hand there will always be good in the machine and all it takes is one shifter to ruin a machine.

I would LOVE a speed camera on my road.

We live on a swerving bend and the road down towards it is long, the speed limit is 40mph. However some people like to put their foot down. When we leave our drive we are unable to see around the corner to our right and because of this leaving home each day is 'tricky' to put it mildly.
A speed camera would make life a little bit safer for us without a doubt.

Just to clarify, most speed cameras have signs before the specific area informing you that they are there, just to be sure we dont miss them there are also great big white lines painted across the road in the area the camera is pointed.
A lot of cameras are placed in traffic blackspots, known for accidents.
I think anything increasing safety is a good idea.
My South African partner was quite amused that we go to such lengths to tell the drivers EXACTLY where the camera is pointed!

An argument I have heard and believe is that the genuine idea is to reduce traffic accidents and by notifying drivers of the camera presence drivers do slow down (to avoid getting a fine) and this reduces accidents.
If it was simply a money making scheme why tell us blatantly (several times) that a speed camera is ahead? If you do manage to get a ticket then you must have looked everwhere other than the road!

Towns? Well shops have used cameras for years for shoplifters, now a lot of crime goes on outside the shops, (mugging, assault, pick-pocketing).

While I do not keep up with celebrity gossip & soap operas I am not yet alarmed by the cameras whilst I believe they can be used for protective purposes.

Can I ask why you think this happened/is happening to you and who do you think is doing it? And, what Scottish people do you mean?

wigit

Yes certainly. I became aware of it in the final year of my degree. I noticed that outside my lab where I worked long into the night there were cars parked until long hours of the night although there were only two or three scientists parked in that place at midnight or 1.00 a.m. when I usually left to go home. I also noticed (this was back in 1987) that no matter what time I got home there was ALWAYS a car following me home all the way to my tenement flat. Later in the year I was aware that everywhere I went people were pointing at the car and making hand signals - circle, square triangle - again and again. I had no bloody idea who these people were. Later in the year I got followed by a handful of cars. On getting s**t scared I shook them off to find in 1988 that there was a significant minority of people swaering and shouting insults at me. This was obviously an organised effort. I found two catechism cards placed in my garage one morning and it all became clear - it was Freemasons and their cults. On trying to find out more at the University computers about Freemasons, the computer completely crashed mid-search. all the reference books about Freemasonry were in French or German. Strange huh! This is Scotland's BIG SECRET because I wrote to every newspaper with my story and to about 20 M.P.'s but was ignored.

I think that someone reported me and that I knew someone who was a bit shady and the policemen and Customs Men put two and two together and
though they would target me - an easy mug studying flat out for his PhD.
Anyway, these incidents continued - I was harassed everywhere by gangs of people shouting verbal abuse. Then I noticed that I could hear sounds inside my house every time I entered as if a French door were closing and I knew then that my movements were being watched like the movie Shallow Grave where the guy hides in the attic. If you want more details give me a U2U but your computer and yourself will be identified and watched so be careful and use other intermediate sites which are less traceable.

Originally posted by neformore
Oh geez. Another US poster with a story about Cameras in the UK.

You guys have BIG problems at home with constitutional violations, Macarthay type paranoia and crooks and liars in the Whitehouse. If you spent half as much time sorting that out as you did harping on about cameras in the UK then the world would be a lot safer, quieter place.

Seriously. This whole "police state" thing about the UK has been done to death.

_____

OK. My original post stopped at the lines above but I'll expand a little. This has been discussed on ATS on at least two other occasions, maybe more. Each time its been discussed the UK posters have come on and said, quite rightly, that the majority of security cameras in the UK are privately owned, nothing to do with the government and that the ones in the city centres were initially set up during the IRA troubles and when we had considerable problems with Football Hooligans, and have since been expanded to cater for a lack of police on the streets, as direct video evidence of a crime being undertaken is considered as the Holy Grail of information for the Crown Prosecution Service.

Speed cameras have been in the UK for over 10 years now. They are used - unsuprisingly - to catch people driving too fast in residential areas, in accident blackspots and on dangerous roads. Again, they are frowned upon as something of a "cash cow" for the government in the form of a stealth tax, but thats all.

Now I will say this - I'm from the UK, have lived here all my life and how I'm telling it is exactly how it is here. Its not a police state - theres not enough bloody police here to make it one - if anything the UK needs more, less politically correct Police than we have now.

And, if not for our cameras, none of the 7/7 bombers would have been identified, and none of the second wave bombers that got it wrong would have been caught.

The subject is dead. As a dodo. Not that I expect you to listen to what I've written. There will probably be at least half a dozen cock-a-mamey posts after this about "the poor Brits in the Police state" and probably a few about how we'reall going to be invaded and slaughtered by Islamic extremists any day now.

Please stop projecting YOUR paranoia onto my country.

[edit on 18/0507/07 by neformore]

[edit on 18/0507/07 by neformore]

Man common, I'm from Holland and all these cameras your talking about are 90% if not MORE owned by the government especially in London, mark my words print them out and read them every time before you go to bed. I seen documentary's, documentary's yes on DISCOVERY channel, from the inside of main police departments explaining how they work and how they can record faces in to the database and recognize them automatically. Once a recorded face commits a crime one of the hundreds of people checking the camera 24/7 will notice and know who you are instantly. You can either ignore this or appoligze for that post i quoted above.

We in the UK have never been FREE !!

We are from the day we are born till the day we DIE are monitored numbered and checked. Doctors notes , school reports , even what food stuffs you consume are monitored. Card transactions , phone calls hell i bet they even know when i last took a pee!! I was a cctv engineer and where i put cameras under orders is nobodys business but you would not believe it !!

This " septic " Isle is indeed a prison .. Escape from New York comes to mind..

We are slowly loosing all civil liberties , ie : i love a smoke n a pint after work now i cant even have a smoke in the local, Scotland and Wales have been the guinea pigs on this but we in "Jolly ol England " lol are also about to loose the right to have a smoke in a public place too , I heard we are not allowed to even smoke in " our own cars " get that!!!! oh unless its a soft top!! what tossers !!

I hate being here now, i used to love being English , British. but now i just want away ..

I think it is time for us to rise up again and take on the ruling parties stop this Orwellien police state before it is too late , but , for we are British!! we will just take it on the chin and form an orderly queue, line on the left one cross each!

I would like to add i am proud of my nations past , that does include Scotland , Wales and N.Ireland . They are the UK as well and England!

Originally posted by shrunkensimon
"Go back to bed America, your government is in control again.. Here, watch this, shutup! You are free..to do as we tell you..YOU ARE FREE.. TO DO WHAT WE TELL YOU" - Bill Hicks, absolute legend. RIP

I was going to link in this image of Bill Hicks that says in it "He Didn't Obey", but I couldn't find it.