Pork Soda: Tales From the Cop Bowl

Originally posted by chissler
While I tend to agree with you, I believe some would say that they are both equal, or maybe that words can speak louder than actions at times. I believe that this is your opinion, and it should not be seen as a widespread notion. I've been beaten before, not very often because I've rarely fought in my day, but I know that words tend to hurt me more than fists ever could. So maybe for some, the personal racism is much worse than institutional racism.

I feel you. But I'd still rather be called a racial epithet than have my head cracked with a billy club.

But the Utopian society that some of us crave may be nothing more than a figment of our imagination.

True. But does that mean we're "whining" about it if we discuss these issues?

I don't think that should make a difference. A person is a person, is a person. The actions and words of a complete stranger can hurt just as much as a loved one. That is my opinion, so others may disagree.

Yes, but that wasn't what I meant. I meant that you wouldn't be able to go from words to blows (again, only an example).

Who is to say that this is a form of institutional racism though? The racial tendencies of an individual cop is hardly an indication of a prejudice existing within the system. Who is to say that his partner, superior officer, etc., wouldn't be appalled by their actions?

Whoa, now you're taking what I said about the 2 forms of racism too far. I only used that as an example of actions vs. words. I didn't mean to imply that dirty cops are all racists; I think I said something about that earlier. IMO, most dirty cops are just dirty, and some dirty cops happen to be racist as well.

If a cop did act inappropriate, does it get reported? If not, how can we expect to see results if nobody is going to step up and hold them accountable?

The times I've tried to report cops, either other officers on the scene discouraged me from doing so, or the cops at the station did. As I mentioned, my relative has a pending lawsuit for the assault. My friend who got his car beat up hasn't had a thing done about it.

I respect that. If a dog bites attacks you as a child, you'll carry a fear of them for life. That fear is a prejudgment. So if you've had bad experiences with cops, it is only human nature to feel ill of them.

Not that, so much as it's human nature to avoid dangerous people.

It's apparent that you don't like cops. For that matter, most authority figures. However, I think it is important that you understand that not all cops/authority are bigots, racists, etc. Some are, that is a mathematical guarantee. There is nothing we can do about that. It sucks, but that is the society we inhabit. But if a cop acts inappropriate towards a black man, because he is a black man, it is the responsibility of the victim to step up and hold him accountable.

Again, see what I said earlier; dirtiness is more of an issue than racism. As for your last sentence, what is the victim supposed to do when he's dead?

Individuals who are the victim, but fail to act and hold the offender accountable, they are a part of the problem as well.

Agreed. But when victims DO try to do something about and are prevented from doing so, that shows more evidence of corruption, mostly on the part of police, but also in the system.

Originally posted by truthseeka
True. But does that mean we're "whining" about it if we discuss these issues?

Your word, not mine.

In no way, shape, or form, am I looking at this as you "whining". Personally, if you have been through what you say you've been through, I think your completely justified in your stance. If you are fabricating stories to further your own agenda, well that would be a completely different story. But something tells me that your speaking the truth, this is something that you've been forced to deal with, and your thoughts/opinions are the result of these ordeals.

Fool me once, shame on you... Fool me twice, shame on me.

We all need to protect ourselves. If a racist cop did you wrong, and inflicted serious harm onto you or someone else based on the color of your skin, I think you are within your own right to justify your opinion.

As a white man, and maybe a recipient of "White Privilege", I certainly would like to know who "among us" is a bigot and treating individuals of color inferiorly. It's not that my eyes are closed, it's more of a case of not being invited to the party.

Victims of this mistreatment need to stand up for themselves and have it known who is abusing their authority. Every act of bigotry, no matter who the individual is, should come with a paper trail.

Eventually, we would eradicate this problem. In my opinion anyways.

Again, that wasn't a reference to you.

I was agreeing that racism will likely only be dead in a utopia. But, I was saying that that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it. The whining was a reference to what many individuals (again, not you) say when racism is discussed by non-whites.

If you want to see who's doing this, take a look at past figures, such as members of the Nixon and Reagan Administrations, and present figures, such as cops who shoot unarmed black men and are acquitted.

Of course, if police screw up they should be held accountable. What are you, me, we doing to ensure that? If alls we do is call them names on the internet, I am afraid that does little or no good.

Do you attend city council meetings, write letters to influencial politicians, make yourself a nuicence? Yes, in the face of corruption that could indeed be very dangerous. But what the hell, what worth doing in life is neccessarily safe. When I took on the establishment in my, admittedly small, town; I left myself open to all kinds of problems...I was pissed off enough that I really didn't give a good god damn.

If you aren't willing to work to change whats wrong, or what you percieve to be wrong, then you really shouldn't complain...it's called social activism. Dangerous in some situations, but no less neccessary for all of that.

Originally posted by truthseeka
I'd go further and say that, once police ARE determined to have screwed up, they should be soundly punished.

Ok, I agree with that fact that the police should by punished more IF it was not a complete accident. Because they are going into a dangerous situation, don't know what could be behind a door so if someone comes running at the and looks like a threat they've got a split second to react.

How many police do you know of that just walked right up to a person that wasn't doing anything and shot them dead? It is most likely they were in a dangerous situation and had a split second to react. Sad, but what are you going to do? Because as soon as they let their gaurd down they can be shot at by the real criminal.

If it was a complete accident should they still be punished? What kind of punishment? Maybe demoted for a while, but not lose their job or jail. That would take one less protector off the street, allowing more criminals.

Originally posted by truthseeka
(usually black male),

Why do you always have to put that in? You could of just left it at "person".

Here is a prime example of what I've been talking about.

Dirty NYC cops

If you watch the first video in the link, you will see the cops threaten to arrest the guy for "having a bomb" because he won't listen to the cops. The cop then goes on to say that the guy would "do 30 days in the hole" by the time the govt figured out he was innocent.



We have a cop, ON CAMERA, threatening to lie and arrest a citizen for being a terrorist. Then, he starts taunting the guy with "guess who's going to jail?" They then snatch the guy's camera and celly.

Now imagine, if Chissler or I (just an example) openly LIED on someone and said they had a bomb, we'd be arrested for making a terroristic threat. In the new America, we could end up in Guantanamo Bay for that. But of course, even if the govt found out later that the guy did nothing, they wouldn't do a THING to the cops. This is how they want the cops to act, not to mention they want more and more people charged with terrorism to push the police state.

And the cop was brazen enough to say this on camera. That just goes to show that cops aren't worried about being caught on tape being dirty; they'll get off with it anyway (as they have SO many times before).

:shk::shk::shk:

This'll probably bounce off the stereotyping that your so gleefully waving around, but what the heck...

Do you ever, and I mean this in all seriousness, try to find out anything about all the good that the many, many good policeofficers do?

You accuse all police of being bad cops, abusive in the use of their power, and a multitude of other sins. You accuse them of using stereotyping in regards to all black men. They must be criminals.

Then you turn right around and use the same method to stereotype all policeofficers.

The exception doesn't prove the rule. Many more good cops than bad.

Originally posted by seagull
This'll probably bounce off the stereotyping that your so gleefully waving around, but what the heck...

Do you ever, and I mean this in all seriousness, try to find out anything about all the good that the many, many good policeofficers do?

You accuse all police of being bad cops, abusive in the use of their power, and a multitude of other sins. You accuse them of using stereotyping in regards to all black men. They must be criminals.

Then you turn right around and use the same method to stereotype all policeofficers.

The exception doesn't prove the rule. Many more good cops than bad.

Please.

I base by views on people more on personal experience than what I hear others say about them. For example, I hear that most/all Muslims/Arabs are terrorists and want to kill Americans. ALL of my Muslim/Arab friends are good people. Therefore, I base my views on Muslims/Arabs more on what I've PERSONALLY seen than what I've HEARD about.

Same thing with cops. I hear everyone talk about "the few bad apples," but in my case, its "the few good apples." So, I base my views on cops accordingly. If you've been paying attention, I NEVER said ALL cops are bad; I said MOST cops are bad.

Here is an article, published by the Associated Press.
Just yesterday, April 29th.

Minorities Fare worse in Traffic stops

It's a shame, that one person, when getting pulled over, might get a little upset because their insurance rates might go up. Yet, another person has to be worried about something much worse.

This is the kind of stuff that has to be reported, and researched more often.
And, it should be reported from within individual departments, by police officers themselves, the ones that don't practice racism.
The ones that don't play judge and jury AT the traffic stop.
There must be plenty of Cops like that, Cops that play the game fairly.

Maybe then, the police can get past this bad apple syndrome.

I don't think I can trust the police where I live.

The Stanley Park Six

On November 24, 2003, the six men pleaded guilty to eighteen charges of assault arising from an incident that occurred on January 14, 2003. According to an agreed statement of facts negotiated between the officers' lawyers and the prosecutor, the six VPD members apprehended three civilians in downtown Vancouver at 4:30 a.m. and put them in a paddy wagon. The paddy wagon and three squad cars then drove to Stanley Park, a large wooded area adjacent to the city. There, the civilians were taken out of the paddy wagon one by one and assaulted. The civilians were not charged with any offences. The incident only came to light when a seventh officer, a new recruit, reported it to superiors.
......

There can be no doubt that the six officers and their lawyers made a favourable plea bargain with the prosecutor. The agreed statement of facts minimized the severity of the conduct, including phrases like "P.C. Kojima contacted [one of the victims] with his police-issue baton in the vicinity of his knee" and "P.C. Kojima prodded [another victim] with his boot". When the guilty pleas were entered, charges of assault with a weapon and attempting to obstruct justice (in relation to an alleged coverup) were stayed.

www.cameronward.com...

Remember the thread Pig farmer confessed to 49 killings, but now denies it? A brilliant VPD geographic profiler alerted the department to a serial killer in 1998. His name was Kim Rossmo, and he wasn't part of the 'Old Boy's Network'. From his wrongful dismissal suit:

In his second day on the witness stand, Rossmo estimated that 10 senior officers resented his promotion and acted negatively toward him during his five years as an inspector.

One of those, he said, was Inspector Fred Biddlecombe, who was in charge of the major crime section.

Rossmo said Biddlecombe threw a minor temper tantrum when Rossmo suggested in 1998 that police should assess the extent of the problem of women disappearing from the streets of the Downtown Eastside -- 40 have vanished since 1971, including 16 between 1995 and 1998.

Rossmo suggested the public should be told about the possibility of a serial killer, but Biddlecombe instead denied publicly that a serial killer existed.

Rossmo sought unit to probe women's deaths

The VPD is responsible for investigating themselves. There's more but I'm at work and don't have time to dredge it all up.

This is in addition to the 4 hours I spent locked in a holding cell when I was 14 (shoplifting, first and last time - my fault, I know) without my parents being contacted. During that four hours, the police took great pleasure in describing to me what would happen to the cute little girl who was going to be sent to Willingdon (juvie) for two years (heavy on the sexual assault stuff). Yes, they were trying to 'scare me straight' but they crossed several lines. I will never forget being thrown out of a police car onto Main Street while the officers announced to everyone around that I had been arrested and was a thief.

What is really sad is that I am happy that the Hell's Angels have a clubhouse near my home. I feel safer with them around than any member of the VPD. That's a pretty sad statement.

Despite my protestations to the contrary, I do indeed realize that there are "bad apples" out there, I've run into them myself. No police force can or should be trusted to police themselves, it is far too easy for them to retreat behind the "thin blue line". Not all of them do, of course, but enough do so that external vigilence is required.

I don't mean to denigrate, or blow off, your bad experiances with the police, but I feel that nothing is accomplished by your unlevened animosity. There are organizations in every large city that do nothing but watch the watchers. If you want to change things, this is how you do it. However justified, unless your anger is channelled to constructive change, it accomplishes nothing.

Originally posted by seagull
I don't mean to denigrate, or blow off, your bad experiances with the police, but I feel that nothing is accomplished by your unlevened animosity. There are organizations in every large city that do nothing but watch the watchers. If you want to change things, this is how you do it. However justified, unless your anger is channelled to constructive change, it accomplishes nothing.

Are you paying attention?

The NYC cops threatened to arrest a man for nothing on CAMERA. The cops from my OP attacked my relative while she was FILMING them beating someone else. There are so MANY examples of police abusing people on camera, and the officers are often not reprimanded.

Then, consider that members of the LAPD were beating their women with impunity, even when reported to the PD. If cops can beat their WIVES and get away with it, who CAN'T they get away with beating in the general population?

Some cops lie and commit crimes. So says an admitted former crooked NYPD cop, Robert Cea in a new book featured on the front page of the New York Daily News. According to this cop’s own admission it is a regular practice to lie on the witness stand, falsify police reports, selectively enforce crimes, and do dirty work and strike shady deals with criminal "informants."

What Cea is describing in his book are practices that are well-known to any local cop just about anywhere, not just large powerhouses like the NYPD. Honest cops will attest to the crimes being committed by their co-workers. And it happens everywhere, all around the country and nobody in any position of power is doing anything to stop it.

I'm not so sure about this. Based on other threads...

Who is willing to stand up to the abuse? Not many people. Cops routinely lie and cover for each other. Judges are not totally oblivious to the excesses of law enforcement, but usually just don’t care and are willing participants with police. Defendants and regular people stand little chance for a fair trial or fair hearing.

The situation is even worse at the federal level. The FBI, IRS and other "investigative" and law enforcement federal agencies do basically whatever they please and many times are more corrupt than the people that they are investigating. Federal prosecutors and federal judges work hand in hand at making sure the accused are convicted regardless of what the facts really are. Anyone who has been targeted by the feds or has a family member who has been knows exactly what I’m talking about.

This is for those who think people are just complaining because they're too lazy to try to do something.

And that’s a huge problem: we know these things exist and we know it happens far more than we let on. But we want to continue to live in this make-believe world where the cops never do anything wrong and that it’s just a "generalization" to say that the law enforcement culture has a large corrupt element to it.

And all the police in both New York and Los Angeles were caught doing this? Stereotyping with the actions of a few onto the many...yet again. Are you looking for us to acknowlege there are bad cops? Yes, yet again, there are bad cops out there, I've never denied that. However, the vast majority are not. Are you paying attention?

Told you.

There's a story on now about the LAPD's handling of an immigration rally with supposed excessive force. I saw them push a guy down for yelling at them, apparently.

:shk:

I'll reserve further comments until later, when more info is available.

Originally posted by truthseeka
Are you paying attention?

The NYC cops threatened to arrest a man for nothing on CAMERA. The cops from my OP attacked my relative while she was FILMING them beating someone else. There are so MANY examples of police abusing people on camera, and the officers are often not reprimanded.

Then, consider that members of the LAPD were beating their women with impunity, even when reported to the PD. If cops can beat their WIVES and get away with it, who CAN'T they get away with beating in the general population?

I watched that video ... the beginning twice ... nowhere does that guy in the trenchcoat ever identify himself (on camera) as a police officer of any sort. He comes out and CALLS the police and then tells them they'll be leaving in handcuffs. He appeared, possibly, to be building security for the WTC. The article claims he indentified himself as a police officer but begins after he has already approached.

The demonstraters were not arrested but merely made to move off the private property (I'm assuming WTC is private property) to the street. Yes, that guy made some absurd comments and indicated he was willing to lie to try to get them locked up. If he indeed was a cop then a copy of that video and a formal complaint should end in some discipline.

Mod Edit: BB Code.

[edit on 9/5/2007 by Mirthful Me]

Originally posted by seagull
Do you ever, and I mean this in all seriousness, try to find out anything about all the good that the many, many good policeofficers do?

But it's not the good cops we're worried about. Cops are supposed to be good. We shouldn't have to find out anything about good cops. Every cop on the street is supposed to be a good cop, right? It's the 'bad cop' that is being covered up, and getting away doing 'bad cop' stuff.

Good cops already get lots of attention, it's the bad ones who we need to pay attention too.

if the majority of cops are good, then why do you never hear of bad cops being arrested by good cops.

Originally posted by tonyc
if the majority of cops are good, then why do you never hear of bad cops being arrested by good cops.

Good point. Must be that blue wall again...

Really? Then who does the arresting? Normal workaday Joes? Nope. Generally speaking its their own. Those, by your lights, oh so rare good cops that are out there.