EU aims to criminalise Holocaust denial

Originally posted by infinite
I have looked into books and articles of those who question the holocaust. Most of them have links to neo-nazi groups. Plus, we have to remember that its neo-nazi who are the main group who deny the holocaust.

Well, in theory, in the U.S. all political viewpoints have a right to be aired, regardless of how despicable we personally my find them. I for one think neo-nazi are scum, but I'm willing to die for their right to spew their filth. Thats freedom of speach.

Vas

Originally posted by YIAWETA
The Zio's have you Euro's fooled. The Holocaust Industry forments the notion that their tragedies during WWII were so horrific that it trumps any criticism of Israel and it's genocidal policies.

Only for people that have a hard time thinking straight.
The rest knows how to seperate criticism of the current Israel government, from the tragedies that happened in the past to jewish people all over europe, that were actually indeed horrific.

I am not sure what you are trying to say about neo nazi's denying the holocaust, with your rather special way of describing the present day efforts of mostly volunteers all over the world to make people aware of what happened in WW2, and that it should never happen again.

This law makes sense in several ways. People should be jailed for yelling around that the holocaust didn't happen, if only to protect them from the many individuals that will want to smash their heads in when they hear people yelling such things.

Which kind of makes me wonder whether letting them go free is not a more suiting punishment...

It is my right as an American and more importantly as a person to be able THINK what I want, regardless of whos feelings it hurts.
If I want to question that 6 million died, its MY right. If I want to question the presence of gas chambers, its MY right. How in the hell in this free world that we are a part of can people actually allow a thought to be criminalized without fighting back?
I dont get it

Originally posted by closettrekkie
What the heck is happening over there? Cameras everywhere, getting arrested for believing something different...I think it's pretty ironic - they're arresting people for denying the holocaust, yet their society is getting to a point of fascism that could lead to their very own!

Id be more worried about your own backyard because its happening there too.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Kr0n0s
It is my right as an American and more importantly as a person to be able THINK what I want, regardless of whos feelings it hurts.
If I want to question that 6 million died, its MY right. If I want to question the presence of gas chambers, its MY right. How in the hell in this free world that we are a part of can people actually allow a thought to be criminalized without fighting back?
I dont get it

Questioning that the holocaust happened is something different than publicly claiming it did not happen.
Loigically, questioning whether it really happened would lead to a search for truth in which one tries to find out whether it really happened or not.
Logically one would find out (due to the overwhelming proof) that it did happen.

This issue and law is not at all about the freedom to have an opinion, it's about not being allowed to abuse this freedom to spread antisemitism, disguising the antisemitism as "speech and opinion".

It's like me saying that all black people are really animals and should be treated so, because it's my opinion that black people's ancestors were gorillas, unlike white peoples ancestors.

Just an opinion, but seriously messed up, and not based on any kind of logic and truth, obviously made up to insult, hurt and destroy.

The laws are necessary at this point. We're three generations removed from WW2 and the imposed guilt on Euro's is wearing off. Because when the 'official version' can't hold water one can only defend the indefensable so long. So just make it illegal.

Originally posted by Flyer

Originally posted by closettrekkie
What the heck is happening over there? Cameras everywhere, getting arrested for believing something different...I think it's pretty ironic - they're arresting people for denying the holocaust, yet their society is getting to a point of fascism that could lead to their very own!

Id be more worried about your own backyard because its happening there too.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

While I understand where you're coming from, you're comparing apples to oranges with this article. The person in Colorado made threatening remarks saying "he was mad enough to kill his classmates". That's a little different than denying the holocaust.

Jakko;
If we follow your logic then the same logic would apply to people searching for the 9/11 truth and questioning the official report.
Lets make it illegal to puplicly question what weve been "officially" told about 9/11 otherwise we will be hurting the feelings of those that lost family members.
Thats pure BS but the same logic replies to the T to what you said.
Also, how is it that just because questions what we are told by officials, makes a person antisemitic?
Ive made threads about that before.. Israel has made the entire country afraid to question them because of being afraid of being called antisemitic.
Israel is a crooked Nation and are only allies of convenience.

Aw comeone you guys be for real here. Lets look at how our right to say what we want is guaranteed by the constitution it has its limits to like yelling fire in a crowded theater, its wrong as it should be because it could cause a stampede of people and kill someone on the way out.
But wheres the logic this law? because it hurts someones feeling? Give me a (beep) break.
You have a country that WILL put you in jail because what you said hurt someones feelings and there isnt an uproar going on about that?
Maybe if there was enough digging done, someone MAY find out that this entire incident was inflated.
20 years ago the dead count was around 3 million, now its 6 million. what other things are they going to add to suit their fancy.



[edit on 19-4-2007 by Kr0n0s]

I think the main difference lies in how reasonable it is to question certain generally understood and researched events.

Questioning 9/11 is, allthough silly in my personal opinion, reasonable in the way that it is clear people have a reason to question what happened other than hurting a certain group of people.

It is reasonable in the way that people do it to find out the truth.
This is why for 9/11 conspiracies, it quickly becomes clear the questioning has nothing to do with wanting to hurt anyone.

For questioning the holocaust this is different, as it is not clear at all that those who question these events, question these events in a search for truth.
The motives behind questioning can usually quickly be understood when these individuals start discriminating jewish people.

These groups of people are not interested in a conversation about what happened, they don't want to look for truth. They just want to call jewish people liars, and do whatever they can to insult and damage jewish people.

Ok well my position is clear as is yours, theres not much left for me to say on this topic so its time to move on to other matters.
good day to ya

Originally posted by Kr0n0s
Ok well my position is clear as is yours, theres not much left for me to say on this topic so its time to move on to other matters.
good day to ya

To soothe your mind, I am quite sure that if you have a reasonable reason/theory with either direct or indirect proof or reports that may suggest some of the holocaust did not happen, and you would want to find out the truth, no goverment would jail you.

It's the mindless yelling and the obvious underlying antisemitic sentiments that this law will target as I understand it.

[edit on 19-4-2007 by Jakko]

i'm sorry, but holocaust denial is not 'hate'. it is a search for historical accuracy for the purpose of rooting out political 'weapons' of steering the collective conscious.

my personal belief? there was definitely a holocaust. 80 million people were murdered in a bout of mass insanity. some were jewish.

my other personal belief? there was nothing that elevates the jewish holocaust above other horrors of mass homicidal human-lemming patterns.

one more? what about the gypsies? where's the outrage and indignation over that FAR WORSE historical treatment by the germans, and europeans in general?

do you go to jail for that, too? *COUGH, hypocracy, COUGH*

nope. it's all gotta be about the 'chosen people'.

Roma-gypsy holocaust fact sheet

can we remember the baatan death march with equal fervour?
the rape of nanking?

i had never even heard of these atrocities until i was an adult. i had seen TONS of documentaries on the holocaust, though. i was repeatedly told by television PROGRAMMING what happened to the jews, but i had no idea what happened to the americans. why the imbalance?

the media's chosen people is why. justifying israel's existance is why. emotional mind control is why.

israel perpetrates it's own holocaust on palestinians, and other neighbors, constantly. without a peep from the press. is it just guilt over the holocaust, or direct control of what the p-ress will or won't publish, as decided by the owners of the system.

i don't hate jews. i don't hate blacks, orientals, indians, or anyone. i do HATE the brain police.

Originally posted by infinite

Originally posted by mnmcandiez
This is terrible, terrible, terrible and one reason why I am glad I live in the USA. Anyone who thinks this should be a crime is foolish.

I have looked into books and articles of those who question the holocaust. Most of them have links to neo-nazi groups. Plus, we have to remember that its neo-nazi who are the main group who deny the holocaust.

So? what does it matter? Let neo-nazis do what they want to do, by questioning the deaths they are not physically harming anyone.

The whole point of learning and especially academically studying history is to question things. Then from that you find out how and why things happened. It develops your learning and knowledge skills.

Just the same as every thread that is posted here on ATS is dissected, researched and questioned from every angle, all of the fors and againsts, the rights and wrongs and the truths and lies.

So what are they going to ban next? 9/11 truth seekers? Historians that write essays that are just a little bit too researched? Free speech and opinions? Questions?

Originally posted by malganis
The whole point of learning and especially academically studying history is to question things. Then from that you find out how and why things happened. It develops your learning and knowledge skills.

Just the same as every thread that is posted here on ATS is dissected, researched and questioned from every angle, all of the fors and againsts, the rights and wrongs and the truths and lies.

So what are they going to ban next? 9/11 truth seekers? Historians that write essays that are just a little bit too researched? Free speech and opinions? Questions?

Some people seem to be so much against certain groups that they are actually willing to allow a god given right to free expression be taken away from them just to be able to see these Nazi type organizations cant hurt someones feelings by expressing their beliefs that some or all of the holocaust was/is made up propaganda.
Seriously, it is their right (at least here in the USA it is) to ask questions, deny its existence or to just plain say its all BS.
We are now living in a world full of Ultra- Sensitive people where it is against the law to hurt someones feelings.
WW2 happened a looong time ago, it is time to move on and stop living in the past and dont even try feeding me the line that says, "forgetting the past means were doomed to repeat it" because I never said it should be forgotten completely. Im just saying that it shouldnt be allowed to still be creating policies and laws that take away a persons rights via thought crime legislation.

Originally posted by malganis
The whole point of learning and especially academically studying history is to question things. Then from that you find out how and why things happened. It develops your learning and knowledge skills.

Just the same as every thread that is posted here on ATS is dissected, researched and questioned from every angle, all of the fors and againsts, the rights and wrongs and the truths and lies.

So what are they going to ban next? 9/11 truth seekers? Historians that write essays that are just a little bit too researched? Free speech and opinions? Questions?

Again now, these neo nazi's are not questioning anything. They do not want to find out how or why things happened.
They do not want to have a discussion about whether or not the holocaust happened, neither do they want to bring valid points to the table.

They just want to publicly yell that it didn't happen, without any further reasonable support or proof.


I wish you were right, and neo nazis would be looking for truth. This would mean we could have a discussion with them and explain to them the holocaust did happen, and that it was horrible. There's enough proof to make them change their minds, if they would really be interested in the truth.

Like I said, this law is targetted at discrimination and antisemitism, disguised as "having an opinion".
If these neo nazis want to have the most silly and insulting opinion based on nothing but their own hate, then this law asks them to have this opinion in their own house, rather than yelling it around on the streets.

A pretty reasonable law if you ask me.

How long ago WW2 happened has nothing to do with anything.

[edit on 20-4-2007 by Jakko]

Originally posted by Jakko

Again now, these neo nazi's are not questioning anything. They do not want to find out how or why things happened.
They do not want to have a discussion about whether or not the holocaust happened, neither do they want to bring valid points to the table.

They just want to publicly yell that it didn't happen, without any further reasonable support or proof.

you are totally wrong here.

ernst zundel had a guy who designs gas chambers for america (go figger the hypocracy) go to auschvitz and analyze the gas chambers. the guy had to sneak in, , because no one is allowed to examine the site too closely (go figger). he concluded(right or wrong) after examining the rooms and the plumbing and venting and everything else relevant that an expert looks for in a 'good' gas chamber set-up, that they wouldn't work as gas chambers, because there was inadequate airflow, and inadequate autonomy.
he said that there were drainage vents in the floor, and that the gas would have harmed the people nearby who were on the same plumbing system. he also said, that if you filled these rooms with gas, it would not be possible to vent the gas out very quickly, afterwards. the problem with this, is that soldiers would be unable to enter and empty out the dead bodies FAST ENOUGH for the numbers of dead that OFFICIAL history claims in the allotted time that OFFICIAL history claims.

personally, i feel he COULD be an anti-semite just looking for an excuse to hate jews.
however, that is not what concerns me.
what concerns me, is:

a. why not allow experts to examine the site?

and mostly

b. why did he get then fired from his job for giving his honest and expert opinion? i mean, how many guys are even gas chamber experts? that's some serious OVERKILL by the BRAIN POLICE.

so, you say 'black', i say, 'white'.
people do not want to simply 'YELL' what they want to believe, driven by anti-semitic fervour.
often it is the shadows on the wall that let you see what is happening in front of the light.

holocaust denial should not be a crime.
neither should expert examination of the historical sites be.

and, may i remind you, you said this:

They do not want to have a discussion about whether or not the holocaust happened, neither do they want to bring valid points to the table.

it seems that it the lawmakers and owners of the system who do not want any discussion or valid points on/of the matter. it seems neo-nazis do want to discuss it, as well as people who are simply curious about the workings of "THE GIANT HISTORICAL PROPAGANDA MACHINE."

and, once again, for the record, i am not 'anti' anything except anti-brainpolice.

my mother may have been a gypsy.

I fit the criteria for a holocaust denier, not because I believe the holocaust never happened, but because I doubt the official account and final death toll. I am also not a neo-nazi and bare no ill will to anyone, including Jewish people.

So tell me why I should be imprisoned again, infinite?

Jakko, I'm afraid you're completely off the mark with what you believe entails holocaust denial. You fall foul of holocaust denial laws if you a) deny the holocaust happened or b) question any aspect of the official account of the Holocaust including death tolls, methods, motives or historical events.

[edit on 20/4/07 by subz]

Originally posted by billybob
you are totally wrong here.

ernst zundel

Hold on.
Ernst Zundel, the guy that founded a small press publishing house called Samisdat Publishers which issued such pamphlets as The Hitler We Loved and Why and Did Six Million Really Die?, both prominent documents of the Holocaust denial movement?

The guy that hired self proclaimed experts to "examine" things they knew nothing about?

Wikipedia is just a few clicks away...

The 1988 trial was notable for its reliance on testimony from individuals such as David Irving and Fred A. Leuchter, a self-declared expert in execution technology.[8] Leuchter's testimony as an expert witness was accepted by the court, but his accompanying Leuchter Report[9] was excluded, based on his lack of engineering credentials. In 1985, key expert testimony against Zündel's alleged Holocaust denial was provided at great lengths by Holocaust historian, Raul Hilberg. Hilberg refused to testify at Zundel's 1988 trial. Zündel was convicted in 1988 and sentenced to 15 months imprisonment by an Ontario court; however, in 1992 in R. v. Zündel his conviction was overturned by the Supreme Court of Canada when the law he had been charged under, reporting false news, was ruled unconstitutional.[10]

I am afraid any point you try to make against this law that involves Ernst Zundel, or any of the people cooperating with him, will not be seen as a very good point by most, including me.

Maybe if you would not get your info from the Hitler-fanclub, but look at people like Raul Hilberg, one of the few distinguished holocaust historians, you would find out that really, there is a reason why Ernst Zundel is seen by everyone (including his wife) as an evil loon.

a. why not allow experts to examine the site?

Why didn't they allow terrorists to examine the 11/9 site?

b. why did he get then fired from his job for giving his honest and expert opinion? i mean, how many guys are even gas chamber experts? that's some serious OVERKILL by the BRAIN POLICE.

I think the problem is he really wasn't an expert, and he was just as neutral towards jewish people as this Ernst Zundel dude.

The problem that many holocaust-deniers have had with lawmakers, is the way in which they not only denie the holocaust based on the expertise of people who are not by a long shot experts, but also the way in which they are open about their support for Hitler.

This would still be fine, if they would not send everyone in their town a pamphlet, explaining their ridiculous theories.

Personally I find it quite amazing that people like Raul Hilberg took the time and energy to seriously debunk the crazy theories of an obvious jew-hater. If I would be an expert on gas-chambers, I would not want to waste one second of my life on the ramblings of a madman such as Ernst Zundel.

And I mean Madman as in

As Christof Friedrich, he also wrote several publications promoting the idea that UFOs are really secret weapons of Nazis who had fled to Neu-Schwabenland in Antarctica. The UFOs supposedly monitor humanity and are part of a secret plan to re-conquer the world at an unspecified time.

madman.

Originally posted by subz
I fit the criteria for a holocaust denier, not because I believe the holocaust never happened, but because I doubt the official account and final death toll. I am also not a neo-nazi and bare no ill will to anyone, including Jewish people.

So tell me why I should be imprisoned again, infinite?

Jakko, I'm afraid you're completely off the mark with what you believe entails holocaust denial. You fall foul of holocaust denial laws if you a) deny the holocaust happened or b) question any aspect of the official account of the Holocaust including death tolls, methods, motives or historical events.

[edit on 20/4/07 by subz]

I am afraid you are completely off the mark with understanding what I said.
I never gave my defenition of holocuast denial, I gave my defenition of the kind of denial this law will be targeted at.
And if you would read the linked article about this law:

They will also have to criminalise “publicly condoning, denying or grossly trivialising crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes” when such statements incite hatred or violence against minorities.

You may find out that questioning an aspect of the official account, or trying to do your own research is not what this law will be targeted at.