Why are we here? A polite discussion...

Recently, and I'm not entirely sure I understood it, but I tapped into a deeper understanding of the world around me.

Human beings are most strongly motivated by a need to feel a part of something. It is an instinct that has helped us survive for this long. When it goes horribly wrong many different groups compete and war with each other to force their group's agenda onto someone else.

Also with a human being's need to feel a part of something greater than themselves, we tend to associate others different than us into groups, or mental categories so that we can relate to things that are "not us".

This is the basis of bigotry, and racism. When another is not "us" it is "bad." Hence derogatory categories for people other than us, such as. Nerds, Jocks, Band Geeks, Rich, Poor.

From polotics, to national pride, to strar trek fans, to religion, to the husband or wife we marry, our "Why are we here?" Is most closely tied to the need to identify with a group mentality. When an individual tries to identify, they form a group. When a group grows larger, they form a community, when a community grows larger, a city, a state, a country, etc.

"They like this, and I like this, so they are good, they are with us."

I can see it so clearly now, that I may never look at life the same way again.

-ADHD



[edit on 26-2-2007 by ADHDsux4me]

An alien had one to many drinks and spilled his spaceship, ended up puking and didn't think about it until they were flying by again and realized his puke placed enough biological matter on the planet to start living organisms. Next thing he new there were a bunch of jackasses making atomic weapons. Now they just fly around wanting to wipe us off the planet but feel remorseful about it because it all came from a bad bender and too much tequila.

You know that story in the bible about the pillar to heaven (or temple or whatever) and god said "Hey, what the hell are you guys doing? Stop that! I shall now smite you all and divide you all up into groups that dont understand each other. HA!" It was like 1950 or around there I think.

Are there any others that wish to contribute to this discussion, on the topic of Why are we here? Other points of view are welcome!

Thanks,

-ADHD

I have a question. What about "loners?" They don't seem to have a "need to fit into a group." How do they play into this scheme?

Loners, find that they do not fit into any groups that they currently know of. So loners not feeling a part of anything, seek to form a group of their own either through their own actions, or through those who also identify with the loner.

A loner may never find the place that they belong, but there are others around them that will want to be a "loner" too and will follow the loner. For instance, why do women love bad-boys? They want to become a group with the loner, the rebel . Also tough-guys tend to attract those who want to be around them, or be them. It works the same for independent minded females, on some level. " I wish I could be cool like that girl, that loner/rebel she has a great hairstyle."

What has been an attractive strerotype in the movies? The loner, from "Rebel Without a Cause" to Han Solo in "Star Wars" to Vin Diesel in "The Chronicles of Riddick". The Loner/Rebel has been romanticized so that we may identify with them, thus better able to relate, and therefore we wish to group with them on some level.

Does that clear it up?

My Thanks,

-ADHD

[edit on 26-2-2007 by ADHDsux4me]

Howdy Mods,

Would you please be so kind as to remove the thread from here? I just recently discovered we have a new forum called Social Issues which I think this topic will fit in better.

My Thanks,

-ADHD

According to religious types, we are here to worshipp God and piss satan off while doing so. After all Lucifer was pissed at God for making humankind in God's own image.

Sounds like an ego problem.

Why are we here? We got kicked out for some reason.

I don't think that is a complete picture, I think we were "tempered" with for a reason that I can only guess, from social apes to social ape hybrid mixed with what species I can only guess. (God maybe.... )

Right now I feel like I'm in someone's national reserve . Where the keepers can do what they want, when they want, and the animals continue to screw around physically, literally, in every way and direction with eachother and everything else wthin limits missing out on the bigger picture.

Just when you think science and our natural curiousity and ideals will unite us on a common cause to explore the our galaxy and aquire new knowledge, diffences in race, religlion, culture and politics divide us.

We should be united by what we are and have in common: curiousity, violently moronic deranged and psychotic hybrid apes, instead of being seperated as greedy, elitist, snobish, holier than thou, arrogant beings.

Religion and science has taught me on thing so far... we are an experiment gone wrong. I wonder how non-human intelligent lifeforms see us?

Originally posted by ADHDsux4me

What has been an attractive strerotype in the movies? The loner, from "Rebel Without a Cause" to Han Solo in "Star Wars" to Vin Diesel in "The Chronicles of Riddick". The Loner/Rebel has been romanticized so that we may identify with them, thus better able to relate, and therefore we wish to group with them on some level.

[edit on 26-2-2007 by ADHDsux4me]

Don't forget Humphrey Bogart in CASABLANCA. He was pretty mush the stereotypical loner. Always in the shadows;always secretive.

Don't forget Rhett Butler in "Gone with the wind."

All of the ladies loved him, and all of the men wanted to be like him. But the one he loved was so unsure of herself that she could never fully love him, and the only thing keeping him from moving on, was his daughter by her.

When the daughter dies in an unfortunate horse riding accident, the protagonist Scarlet finally tries to show him the love he was starved of. His response " Frankly Scarlet I don't give a damn!" and he leaves her.

-ADHD

Sometimes IXIY

I feel the same way, I want the zookeepers to take some responsibilty and slap our hands like a parent and say...

"Bombs bad! Now go sit in that corner and think about what you were doing"

-ADHD

Originally posted by ADHDsux4me
Human beings are most strongly motivated by a need to feel a part of something. It... has helped us survive for this long. When it goes horribly wrong many different groups compete and war with each other to force their group's agenda onto someone else.

Human beings are a social species. It is natural for us to bond together into groups. That is how we have evolved: as creatures who thrive best as part of a social group.

However, the 'natural' size of such groups is quite small, ranging from the nuclear family through the extended family and the hunter-gatherer band to the tribe. Up to the tribal level, such groups consist of genetically related individuals.

Members of such groups -- bands and tribes -- cooperate with one another for mutual benefit. This is natural, instinctive human behaviour, the product of millions of years of evolution.

However, bands and tribes compete with one another too -- often violently and sometimes lethally. They make war. This, too, is instinctive human behaviour, evolved over millions of years because it favours the differential survival and reproduction of the warriors' genes.

What I'm trying to explain here is that the urge to belong and the urge to attack those who do not belong are both equally natural, instinctive and beneficial.

However, what works well when the human race is made up of small bands or tribes can be deadly when it is practised in larger, more complex groups such as chiefdoms, nation-states and empires. By the time Achilles and my noble father met in battle outside the gates of Troy, it was already well understood that war is hell.

But your question was, why are we here?

The correct answer is simple and has now gained reasonably widespread acceptance (though of course the religious, who have other answers, reject it): we exist in order to preserve and propagate our genes. We are, to quote the great evolutionist Richard Dawkins, 'survival machines' that our genes have developed over billions of years of evolution for their own purposes of self-maintenance and reproduction.

A little deflating, I know, but nevertheless the best answer we have.

While instictively our existence is to pass on genes, some would beg the question. Are we merely the sum of our genes, and our need to pass them on, or are we here for a more "esoteric or spiritual" purpose?

The need to fill that void has been answered through shared spirituality, and shared community experiences. Hence the most basic of groups that attempt to answer why are we here, are religious groups.

During the middle ages the church was the biggest group influence, exerting it's control through fear and through the need for people to feel a part of something larger and spiritual. The downside of this, was the manipulation exerted by the church for uniformity, and conformity.

We see a backlash of this control today in modern society, the Church has fractured into splinter faiths, and many others have just flat out rejected the draconic teachings of the man-written bible only to embrace another group. The key is "group" a new communal influence that can be identified with, and it's members feel a part of.

While the seeking to belong to a group has proven beneficial for our biology, it has created havoc in our society. The need to fit in is overwhelming. It can drive people to lengths of insanity when they do not feel as if they belong. Or if those in an existing group exclude others who desperately need to feel a part of that group.

For instance, look back at The Columbine massacre. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, would have not become murderers that fatefull day, had they been made to feel a part of the school social system.

Who was at fault here? I fully blame instinct. The instinct that "different from us is bad" caused the murderers peers to ostracize them. In that ostracism Dylan and Eric formed a new group in each other, 2 adolescents who were excluded from the larger group. They identified with each other, both having felt the rejection and ridicule of the school social group.

The instinct to group, and survive also drove them into competetion with the larger school social group. When 2 groups compete for resources, they confront and/or war with each other. In this case, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold had better weapons and the element of surprize. However group society at large, did not recognize their actions as survival instinct because their plight was ignored and washed over, as 2 "bad kids"

Were they really bad? Or were they driven insane by the bullying and ostracism for being different?

Did they murder? Yes.

Could this have been prevented? Yes.

How do you think this atrocity could have been prevented?

-ADHD

Originally posted by ADHDsux4me
While instictively our existence is to pass on genes, some would beg the question. Are we merely the sum of our genes, and our need to pass them on, or are we here for a more "esoteric or spiritual" purpose?

Actually, it does not beg the question. The question is an unrelated one, a byproduct of consciousness, perhaps. Whatever its origin, it certainly does not follow from the preceding statement.

The fact that some people find a mechanistic, gene-based answer to the question 'why are we here?' unsatisfactory does not mean it is not true. Neither does it mean that there is some other, 'higher' answer above this.

While the seeking to belong to a group has proven beneficial for our biology, it has created havoc in our society.

But is also creates society, don't you see? You cannot have the one without the other.

The need to fit in is overwhelming. It can drive people to lengths of insanity when they do not feel as if they belong.

That is because they recognize, instinctively, how important it is for human beings to be part of a social group. Outcasts mostly suffer short, miserable lives.

Or if those in an existing group exclude others who desperately need to feel a part of that group.

But perhaps such people need to be excluded, for the good of the individuals already inside the group -- which is instinctively assessed in terms of the reproductive prospects of their genes.

Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold...

Were possibly individuals of this kind, people whom others instinctively recognized as a reproductive threat. Perhaps whatever it is that made them killers was somehow, unconsciously, evident to others. Perhaps that was why their schoolmates regard them as creepy, losers, etc. I agree that this is only speculation, but then, so is this:

...would have not become murderers that fateful day, had they been made to feel a part of the school social system.

You cannot be certain of that, ever. You see an apparent cause-and-effect relationship between their exclusion and their crimes, but is it the correct one? Looking at the same facts, one could just as easily draw the opposite conclusion, as I have done, and insist that their evident instability and overall creepiness was what caused their exclusion -- and for good reason.

Not every adolescent excluded from his or her peer group grows up to be a murderer. Many more grow up to be successful and reasonably well-adjusted adults, and quite a few, leveraging the psychic tensions of their excluded adolescence, grow up to be great tycoons, athletes, entertainers or scholars. It all depends on the individual, which suggests that heredity is as powerful an influence in this sort of outcome as environment.

Who was at fault here? I fully blame instinct.

Blame it all you want, but there's no getting rid of it.

pardon my keyboard, the caps has been broken.

ast, it's great to bounce theory off of you. your theory could be true as well but, i just don't give groups enough credit to determine which individuals have healthy genes or not.

ostracism, is a punishment for non-conformity. ostracise enough people, or social animals for that matter, and they will form their own group.

from music bands, to rogue lions, when an individual does not fit in, or no longer fits in, and are made to leave or pushed to it, new groups form. this group has different membership criteria, neither better or worse than the previous group, just different.

group mentality, 'different from us is bad'

that lack of understanding breeds fear. quickly replaced by hatred, and in hatred, violence. look at religious wars for instance, or the war on terror. i think the war on terror is a poor solution to understanding our muslim neighboors.

while a conflict may be inevitable between the two groups, what many fail to see is.

a muslim, is not a muslim extremist terrorist, any more than a christian, is a kkk member.

however it's a lot easier for americans to group similar 'others' together when the differences seem too small or difficult to figure out.

-adhd

Originally posted by ADHDsux4me
i just don't give groups enough credit to determine which individuals have healthy genes or not.

Of course 'groups' can't determine anything of the sort. The determination is made by individuals inside the group and enforced by mutual agreement. Doubltess the group leadership will be influential in the decision but the determination is down to individuals.

The choice these individuals make is conscious ('you're out; he's in'), but it's based on unconscious, instinctive factors. You may say 'that guy looks nasty', or 'what a slimeball!' or 'pooh! he smells', or even 'I can't put my finger on why, but I don't trust that feller'. These are just rationalizations of an instinctive revulsion that may be based on genetic factors. No-one ever says (or even thinks) 'that guy is a threat to my reproductive prospects' -- it doesn't work that way.

If you think people aren't smart enough to make such choices unconsciously, think again. That's exactly what we do when we find ourselves attracted to certain people, or even just feeling well-disposed towards them. According to the available scientific evidence, a lot of these choices and feelings are based on genetic factors.

ostracism, is a punishment for non-conformity. ostracise enough people, or social animals for that matter, and they will form their own group.

You prompt me to speculate that you, yourself, have felt ostracized or cast out, and that it was a very painful experience for you. That being so, you tend to blame the experience for all the numerous problems of the world. If this is the case I sympathize, but to blame the practice of ostracism for all the world's troubles would be a foolish mistake. Don't do it.

[edit on 6-3-2007 by Astyanax]

Originally posted by ADHDsux4me
Human beings are most strongly motivated by a need to feel a part of something. It is an instinct that has helped us survive for this long. When it goes horribly wrong many different groups compete and war with each other to force their group's agenda onto someone else.

Also with a human being's need to feel a part of something greater than themselves, we tend to associate others different than us into groups, or mental categories so that we can relate to things that are "not us".

This is the basis of bigotry, and racism. When another is not "us" it is "bad." Hence derogatory categories for people other than us, such as. Nerds, Jocks, Band Geeks, Rich, Poor.

From polotics, to national pride, to strar trek fans, to religion, to the husband or wife we marry, our "Why are we here?" Is most closely tied to the need to identify with a group mentality. When an individual tries to identify, they form a group. When a group grows larger, they form a community, when a community grows larger, a city, a state, a country, etc.

"They like this, and I like this, so they are good, they are with us."

I can see it so clearly now, that I may never look at life the same way again.

-ADHD



[edit on 26-2-2007 by ADHDsux4me]

Well said indeed!Your are absolutly right about how goups are formed and that people need something to belive.You are also right about these groups creating prejidices and that is why I'm a fan of globalization.Not that its the complete solution to ending racism but removeing borders and giving everyone something in common to idenify with can only bring some groups toghter.

I know why I am here, as far as in this Forum, to decipher what my thoughts are and what they mean to me and to other people. I like to share my thoughts, prove people wrong, be proven wrong, and to expand my knowledge of everything. I am not a genus but I am extremely intelligent....as a majority of you folks also are! Anyway...I don't know why we are here...maybe to ponder existence??

I'm sorry to ask this, but isn't this topic more of a BTS topic? There is no conspiracy being discussed here...

Also I can tell you why we are here... We are here to have fun and to be happy... That's it...

It's black and white, good and evil, yin and yang, cut plain and simple...

Let me explain a bit further... God put us here to live with the planet and with each other in harmony... When Adam and Eve ate the fruit they opened the gates for Satan to come in and start mixing things up... To put it lightly.. So now we are put under hardships which combat with the real reason of why we are here... That is why we are always in the pursuit of happiness, but never always happy...

Hope you understand what I'm trying to convey... If not let me know.. U2U me or something... later!..

Yeah, the bible explains it all, read it and stop thinking, you don't need to use your mind, blah blah blah... Sorry, I have a short fuse with people who refer everything to religion, I ask why are they here? They should read their bibles and let us do what we came here to do...

A very interesting subject indeed! Lots of good thoughts and ideas in the previous posts. My opinion, and answering straight to "Why are we here?" is this:

For some reason, the universe exists. It gets more complex over time (stars, planets, galaxies, etc). Life is simply a by-product of all this. Because it is there, it simply gets more complex. We are more complex than what came before us. But not as complex as what will come after us.

I don't believe we are the end of evolution, but only a step. I believe that over the next few million years, other more complex creatures will come after us. To them, creating a Beethoven symphony will be a baby's cry.

If they do find any traces of our civilization, they will never understand that we were evolved in any way.

There you have it; not overly optimistic. It just is what it is.