How do we stop Islamic Fundamentalism?

i'm studying that... hard to resume for now (got to read all these sacred books)

Originally posted by spear
If we could do this I think Al Queda...and Osmama Bin hiding.......would be a thing of the past.....any ideas?

The question should be How do we stop "Religious Fundamentalism? All religions suffer from the same problem. And all religions have blood on their hands. Thats just the way it is.

Originally posted by Canuck
Ok, "stopping" a religion is morally disgusting.
I'm Eclectic Pagan, I'd wager most of you have never heard that term. Part of my religious belief structure is the acceptance of all religions as long as they serve the same purpose, a good, honest life.

This war was not started by the Islamics, it started as soon as a foreign power put a military base on their holy land.

Think of it this way.........

You Americans, how would you feel if you woke up one morning and let's say.... England had made a military base down the block without prior consent from your government?

You'd be pretty damn pissed off!

I'm not taking sides, I watch the war as a neutral observer, both sides have valid reasons for war in their own opinions, yet neither can see validity of the others reason!

They need to be sat down and talked to like the #ing children they are acting like!

.......... Sorry, I get testy when I'm baked

Well honestly, there is no right or wrong in the scheme of things. They disagree with our way of life, and we disagree with theirs. (now im not including anyone in that statement before you jump all over me, just illustrating a point)It doesnt matter like I said before. As long as we have free will to think, there will be war. War is not right or wrong in any instance. It is part of life. Human beings have killed each other since the beginning of recordable history, and long before that I'm sure. They will kill each other until this earth is gone too. So, while I am here on this earth, I am going to be the best person I can be, but will support those who are agressing towards what I see as a threat to my life. We have opinions. We disagree. We kill each other. Thats life.

As far as us americans feeling angry about a military base. Your right, it would piss us off. But it also pisses us off when people fly airplanes into our buildings and things of that nature. Religion IS THE PROBLEM in this situation. Their religious beliefs (Islam) disagrees with the christian values of american and western society. So, there will be conflict. Unfortunately for them, the religious beliefs that they posess, have managed to stifle the progress of their society, so they can't defend themselves against us. That moves us into darwinism.........something Im sure will be covered somewhere else.

Originally posted by Ocelot

Originally posted by spear
If we could do this I think Al Queda...and Osmama Bin hiding.......would be a thing of the past.....any ideas?

The question should be How do we stop "Religious Fundamentalism? All religions suffer from the same problem. And all religions have blood on their hands. Thats just the way it is.

This is a question that probably has been asked numerous times throughout history. 90% of all wars throughout history have been over religion. Your statement is right on. To believe that we will be able to solve this problem in our lifetime might be a stretch though. It seems religion will always be an excuse for war.

Originally posted by Seekerof
"How do we stop Islamic Fundamentalism?"

Islamic Fundamentalism did not begin with this current administration nor with any current administration. Islamic Fundamentalism is rooted in history or in historical relevance.

Islamic Fundamentalism has been around for centuries.
Islamic Fundamentalism will not change unless Islamic Fundamentalism is addressed by Islam.
Since the creation of Islam, which I probably stand to be corrected, a small minority has always been labeled apart of Islamic Fundamentalism.
One thing to note is that extremism is apart of every aspect of life and function. This is not solely restricted to Islam.
Again, IMHO, getting rid of it won't happen till Islam corrects this and 'correcting' this is an improbable. Extremism, extremists, fundamentalism will always be apart of mankind regardless of religion, creed, organization, belief, etc.


regards
seekerof

I guess Im looking for a simple answer to a complex issue.........but ultimately dont we all want to live in peace and harmony?(or our own version of this) it seems to me that the extreme elements in any situation rely on imflaming a situation.........divide and conquer. I read an article which Ive lost the link to now, but, it was Al Queda's mission statement so to speak, it outlined its desire to create an Islamic superstate...and also to kill the un-believers.....oddly enough this seems to be a common theme through out history.will we ever learn?

Originally posted by spear

Originally posted by Seekerof
"How do we stop Islamic Fundamentalism?"

Islamic Fundamentalism did not begin with this current administration nor with any current administration. Islamic Fundamentalism is rooted in history or in historical relevance.

Islamic Fundamentalism has been around for centuries.
Islamic Fundamentalism will not change unless Islamic Fundamentalism is addressed by Islam.
Since the creation of Islam, which I probably stand to be corrected, a small minority has always been labeled apart of Islamic Fundamentalism.
One thing to note is that extremism is apart of every aspect of life and function. This is not solely restricted to Islam.
Again, IMHO, getting rid of it won't happen till Islam corrects this and 'correcting' this is an improbable. Extremism, extremists, fundamentalism will always be apart of mankind regardless of religion, creed, organization, belief, etc.


regards
seekerof

I guess Im looking for a simple answer to a complex issue.........but ultimately dont we all want to live in peace and harmony?(or our own version of this) it seems to me that the extreme elements in any situation rely on imflaming a situation.........divide and conquer. I read an article which Ive lost the link to now, but, it was Al Queda's mission statement so to speak, it outlined its desire to create an Islamic superstate...and also to kill the un-believers.....oddly enough this seems to be a common theme through out history.will we ever learn?

The idea that we all want to live in peace is probably not a very correct statement. Through-out history we have seen man hunger for war, death and basically drama. Most people probably do want to live in peace but there will always be exceptions to that rule that will always IMO create war and havoc. Murderers, rapists and other criminals have always existed. To believe they will go away is a pretty far-fetched idea. The same applies to people who crave disruption of peace and stability.

Will we ever learn?
Probably not.

Im starting to think I should have askes "how do we curb........or lower Islamic fundamentalism"

when will we get rid of Christian Fundamentalism? I'm more scared of Jerry Fawell than bin Laden.

Originally posted by ByzantineIcon
when will we get rid of Christian Fundamentalism? I'm more scared of Jerry Fawell than bin Laden.

I never knew Falwell set up a group of christian fundementalists to hijack planes and ram them into buildings. Sorry, im not trying to be a ass but that is a ridiculous statement.

Originally posted by ByzantineIcon
when will we get rid of Christian Fundamentalism? I'm more scared of Jerry Fawell than bin Laden.

This really is a very interesting time for mankind. I'm very curious to see how it turns out. Religion is the problem...how are you supposed to tell people to stop believing in one fictitious god to believe in another?

Originally posted by ByzantineIcon
when will we get rid of Christian Fundamentalism? I'm more scared of Jerry Fawell than bin Laden.

I'm not. Jerry Falwell makes me sick, he doesn't try to kill me.

The difference is fairly easy in my eyes.

I agree that the question should be rephrased. Maybe more like "How do we DEAL WITH RELIGIOUS FANATICAL fundamentalism?" religion is not the problem. fundamentalism is not the problem. FANATICISM IS THE PROBLEM.

I don't think we can unless we want to become oppressive towards people's religious beliefs. We can just incarcerate, and otherwise make it real damned hard for them to perpetrate their fanatical and dangerous ways on others.

Originally posted by heelstone
Thats easy. Remove the current U.S. administration.

HA! you make me laugh. for one thing just because an administration that the world doesnt like isnt the problem with islamic fundamentalism. muslims are the most fundamentalist people on the face of the planet. and some of the most ignorant too.


Al gore or any of the other stooges that the DNC has would not be an very effective at stoping islamic fundamentalism. it would only encourage it more, by letting the fundamentalist know that we wont hit back if they hit us.

"This time I think the Americans are serious. Bush is not like Clinton. I think this is the end."
Uday Hussein, just after the beginning of the war.



enjoy

Resolve the Palestine issue, by actually treating the Palestinians like humans, and giving them just as much aid as Israel and justy as many weapons as well. If u dont wanna give Pallys weapons, dont give em to Israel.

Then get the US bases out of the middle east and other muslim nations. What would be the US or UK's reaction to say....Iran having more military bases in the UK or on US soil than the US and UK ?

Why do u need these military bases in other countries > It is threatening and offensive.

Do this, and ur sorted.

No more al-qaeda no more problem.

Originally posted by wwviews
Resolve the Palestine issue, by actually treating the Palestinians like humans, and giving them just as much aid as Israel and justy as many weapons as well. If u dont wanna give Pallys weapons, dont give em to Israel.

Then get the US bases out of the middle east and other muslim nations. What would be the US or UK's reaction to say....Iran having more military bases in the UK or on US soil than the US and UK ?

Why do u need these military bases in other countries > It is threatening and offensive.

Do this, and ur sorted.

No more al-qaeda no more problem.

No No No........resolving the Palestinian Problem will help lower the numbers of recruits who are willing to turn themselves into human bombs.....but its not gonna stop the real fanatics who in reality are as has been said before.."enemies to humanity". As far as US military bases on foreign soil, well just think for a second if they werent there........far more insatability, far more indecisiveness, and worst of all for americas stake in the world community...a return to the conservative isolationism of the late 1930's...early 1940's..if that happened im afraid America would become an even more inviting target for religious fanatics bent on destroying the Icon of the free world. (and no im not an american)

Im still looking for that killer idea!

Originally posted by Dreamz

Originally posted by Canuck
Ok, "stopping" a religion is morally disgusting.
I'm Eclectic Pagan, I'd wager most of you have never heard that term. Part of my religious belief structure is the acceptance of all religions as long as they serve the same purpose, a good, honest life. I agree

This war was not started by the Islamics, it started as soon as a foreign power put a military base on their holy land.

Think of it this way.........

You Americans, how would you feel if you woke up one morning and let's say.... England had made a military base down the block without prior consent from your government?

You'd be pretty damn pissed off!
Wrong. We put our military in Saudi Arabia because they wanted protection by the US armed forces from Saddam Hussein. We did not just decide to surprise the Saudo's at all.



I'm not taking sides, I watch the war as a neutral observer, both sides have valid reasons for war in their own opinions, yet neither can see validity of the others reason! You see a valid reason on why 2 planes flew into the WTC's and killed innocents from various parts of the world? Well, then you my friend have underlying moral issues that I can not help you with.

They need to be sat down and talked to like the #ing children they are acting like!

No they need to be shown the only way that they know how to listen, by a show of force. These people will not listen to debates or peace treaties. They want their version of Islam to run rampant throughout the world. If we don't stop them, I frankly don't see who will. Would it of been ok if we let Hitler be, and let him spread his hatred of Jews throughout the world until he owned every last part of it?

.......... Sorry, I get testy when I'm baked

I have not been able to find a list that would shed some light on American atrcocities, I have emailed Michael Moore and all the operators of his web sites to attain the copy.

You Americans ALWAYS assume your in the right and that you've been wronged. It always has to be YOUR way, or you bitch and moan until everybody says fine and looks the other way.
Yes, it was wrong to crash those planes into those towers, I don't dispute that. But your hands are no cleaner then theirs are!
When I have the list I'll be sure to ram it down your throat metaphorically!
Your country was born on war, you thrive on it.
Your media sidelines stories that are decent and have actual meaning to show you murder, rape, and countless other crimes. And yes, Canada has it too. BECAUSE WE GET YOUR DAMN NEWS AND PROGRAMMING RAMMED DOWN OUR #ING THROATS!

"Americans are benevolently ignorant about Canada, while Canadians are malevolently well informed about the United States."
- J. Bartlett Brebner

Your opinion is biased, you need to take a few damn steps back and look at the ENTIRE situation, not just your own damn point of view!
You Americans can be so damn pig headed and stubborn, always assuming that your government has the best intentions for you and everyone else, grow the # up. Open your damn eyes and put a stop to the bloodshed!
If you removed your damn troops from their land, they'd stop attacking you! It's that bloody simple!
Yes, a portion of their population may want democracy, well then they should move to #ing America or another Democratic nation shouldint they?
Quit ramming your #ing beliefs in other countries faces!
The Palestineans and other Arabs have lived in this way for thousands of years, what makes you think you can just move in, put up a "Here, we like democracy!" sign and think they're going to accept it??!!
Leave people the # alone!

Also, yes sept 11 was a tragedy, but to continually use it as a scapegoat for your countries actions as your government has been doing, is an even worse tragedy.
No, I'm not saying forget about it, just quit using it as an excuse!

Originally posted by Seapeople

Originally posted by Canuck
Ok, "stopping" a religion is morally disgusting.
I'm Eclectic Pagan, I'd wager most of you have never heard that term. Part of my religious belief structure is the acceptance of all religions as long as they serve the same purpose, a good, honest life.

This war was not started by the Islamics, it started as soon as a foreign power put a military base on their holy land.

Think of it this way.........

You Americans, how would you feel if you woke up one morning and let's say.... England had made a military base down the block without prior consent from your government?

You'd be pretty damn pissed off!

I'm not taking sides, I watch the war as a neutral observer, both sides have valid reasons for war in their own opinions, yet neither can see validity of the others reason!

They need to be sat down and talked to like the #ing children they are acting like!

.......... Sorry, I get testy when I'm baked

Well honestly, there is no right or wrong in the scheme of things. They disagree with our way of life, and we disagree with theirs. (now im not including anyone in that statement before you jump all over me, just illustrating a point)It doesnt matter like I said before. As long as we have free will to think, there will be war. War is not right or wrong in any instance. It is part of life. Human beings have killed each other since the beginning of recordable history, and long before that I'm sure. They will kill each other until this earth is gone too. So, while I am here on this earth, I am going to be the best person I can be, but will support those who are agressing towards what I see as a threat to my life. We have opinions. We disagree. We kill each other. Thats life.

As far as us americans feeling angry about a military base. Your right, it would piss us off. But it also pisses us off when people fly airplanes into our buildings and things of that nature. Religion IS THE PROBLEM in this situation. Their religious beliefs (Islam) disagrees with the christian values of american and western society. So, there will be conflict. Unfortunately for them, the religious beliefs that they posess, have managed to stifle the progress of their society, so they can't defend themselves against us. That moves us into darwinism.........something Im sure will be covered somewhere else.

Than an isolationist policy is in order, Islamics out of America, Americans out of Islamic territories.

War is not a must. That is a sad look on life and human history.

**Edit** - Also, yes, darwinism does come into play here. If they choose to believe-fanatically- in a religion that is going to eventually collapse their civilization, then you don't have to go shoot them. Leave them alone and let time and evolution take its place.

Also: I realize that most of my words will piss you Americans off. Please believe I am sincere when I say this.

I do not hate the American people. What I do hate is the way your government chooses to lead you.
I realize my government is shining example, believe me. But war is not an answer or solution. It will just prolong this entire situation or even escalate it.

I know I may sound naive, but remember: 150 years ago it would have been naive to think that we would ever have the majority of the technology we have today.
My point is, todays norm may not be tomorrows norm.
Keep an open mind, war is hell.

[Edited on 29-11-2003 by Canuck]

If you removed your damn troops from their land, they'd stop attacking you! It's that bloody simple!
Yes, a portion of their population may want democracy, well then they should move to #ing America or another Democratic nation shouldint they?
Quit ramming your #ing beliefs in other countries faces!
The Palestineans and other Arabs have lived in this way for thousands of years, what makes you think you can just move in, put up a "Here, we like democracy!" sign and think they're going to accept it??!!
Leave people the # alone!



I dont know what part of Canada you live in (if indeed you do)......but lets get real here......first and foremost, the attacks on western democracy have been going on far longer than troops have been in "sensitive" arab or Islamic areas, secondly, if we stand idle....as history teaches us.....it will only be a matter of time before the problem presents itself at our own front door. This may not sit happily with your view of the world....but why not ask the 350,000 or so dead Iraqi's what they would have preferred?.........or perhaps mayby the polish jews in 1939?......there are any number of instances where hand wringing apologists such as yourself have stood back and watched whilst bemoaning others who choose to act.
I bear in mind through this, that the US is not whiter than white...it does have blood on its hands, however, the social..and political reality is such that inaction, putting your head in the sand, or making excuses for past mistakes...just is not an option.

(oh and by the way im not a US person...but am an ex servicema who has seen war first hand)

Originally posted by spear
If you removed your damn troops from their land, they'd stop attacking you! It's that bloody simple!
Yes, a portion of their population may want democracy, well then they should move to #ing America or another Democratic nation shouldint they?
Quit ramming your #ing beliefs in other countries faces!
The Palestineans and other Arabs have lived in this way for thousands of years, what makes you think you can just move in, put up a "Here, we like democracy!" sign and think they're going to accept it??!!
Leave people the # alone!

I dont know what part of Canada you live in (if indeed you do)......but lets get real here......first and foremost, the attacks on western democracy have been going on far longer than troops have been in "sensitive" arab or Islamic areas, secondly, if we stand idle....as history teaches us.....it will only be a matter of time before the problem presents itself at our own front door. This may not sit happily with your view of the world....but why not ask the 350,000 or so dead Iraqi's what they would have preferred?.........or perhaps mayby the polish jews in 1939?......there are any number of instances where hand wringing apologists such as yourself have stood back and watched whilst bemoaning others who choose to act.
I bear in mind through this, that the US is not whiter than white...it does have blood on its hands, however, the social..and political reality is such that inaction, putting your head in the sand, or making excuses for past mistakes...just is not an option.

(oh and by the way im not a US person...but am an ex servicema who has seen war first hand)

I'm not saying, "do nothing".
I'm merely trying to imply that the pen may be a better weapon here than the sword.

perhaps if America first announced it's intentions for leaving Islamic territories as an amnesty for Bin Laden and Hussein to work this out as diplomats, and yes I know they were given the chance, but also realize they were given that option before they REALLY had their asses handed to them on a platter.
I'm not saying forgive them, I'm not saying let them go free.
I'm saying try to work it out with words instead of bullets.
**Edit** It's never too late for peace.

And saying that, I've said my piece.
I realize how badly I'm going to be flamed for this, and frankly I don't care. If it pisses you off, then I've hit a nerve. Good.
Think about what I've said please.
And don't judge all Canadian by what I say, it is my point of view and the majority here DO NOT agree with me.

[Edited on 29-11-2003 by Canuck]

**Edit2** Also, what war did you serve in and what division? I'm a thorough person and yes, I will look it up.

[Edited on 29-11-2003 by Canuck]