Congress are going to pass a bill today, that will change your world

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Bush and co are sticking two fingers up to international law,and to think there is many on this site who dont think the US is not turning into a dictatorship. Well its now got to the stage that if people did start to demonstrate and fight the goverment, you could all be locked up under all this legislation,

Wrong...first of all, if it is true, it is a bill against alien enemy combatants... second of all kind of hard for the government to lock up millions of people... Prisons are overcrowded as it is...

Originally posted by magicmushroom
America the country that used to be a democracy.

The United States is a representative Republic. Kind of hard for you to discuss this topic when you don't udnerstand what system the United States has.

Originally posted by darkbluesky

When all the could's, if's, maybe's, they's, them's, etc. turn into people actually being "dissappeared", I'll join the cause!

And how will you know they've been disappeared???
Who will be left to tell you?
Will you even believe what they say, should they stay free long enough to raise the alarm?

If this government, with the powers they are grabbing for themselves, doesn't want anyone to know where their victims are, how will you know?

Originally posted by RedGolem
Fair enuff statment. But do you have a count of how many times we have been treated with honer, vs the times we have not?

it is not the dishonorable's duty to maintain honor for they have none already

"second of all kind of hard for the government to lock up millions of people..."
--------

Check this out on Wikipedia:

Rex 84, short for Readiness Exercise 1984, was a plan by the United States federal government to test their ability to detain large numbers of American citizens in case of massive civil unrest or national emergency.

...To fight subversive activities, there was authorization for the military to implement government ordered movements of civilian populations at state and regional levels, the arrest of certain unidentified segments of the population, and the imposition of martial rule.

======

Sounds like they've already got the idea this is possible.

I guess Bush got his wishes after all, he got his tribunals just like wanted too. So when it comes to this present administration they have gotten away with anything they want.

I also wonder how can we be sure that not American citizens has been taken away under fighting domestic terrorism is not like they are going to advertise it.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
Delta boy and all others that cannot understand the meaing of empathy. What would you do if you were an Iraqi freedom fighter, put on a unifornm and stand toe to toe with the greatest military the earth has seen? Wouldnt that be slightly retarded?

Not an attempt to stay on topic or anything of this nature but….the point of the bill is about NOT wearing uniforms…yes?

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
Man I would run the other way, blend in and pick em off on my own terms.

Then you become an…"unlawful combatant"…yes???

The rest is solid opinion…but again, the uniform issue is pertinent to the thread…So in a simple answer, yes I would put on a uniform to defend my nation at home (emphasis: put on uniform) otherwise I would anticipate a quick summary execution. Try applying these "rules of war" to say someone other than… European, North American and a smattering of Asian nations….lol!

Just for complaining you could get chopped!

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
look at your american dictatorship!

You (and others) have not taken the time to read one post, not one, I have made within this thread…

…keep on believing that the “sky is falling” and every day Chicken Little will rule your life...--mg

This bill concerns me, because after the coming elections, it would not of been allowed to pass.
It concerns me because restricting people of GC is not the proper way to handle issues from a democratic populace.
"alien unlawful enemy combatants engaged in hostilities against the United States for violations of the law of war and other triable offenses"

To me says any foreigner WITHIN the US can be deemed an ALIEN, an un lawful one at that .

After we illegially invaded Iraq and branded anyone whom didnt approve of us being thre a terrorist, i find it frightening that we have made it law the president can decide WHOM Falls into this catergory, WHAT Steps are taken to remove them from the populace, and how to DEAL with the issue, in secret with no rights.
This is not how an HONEST, UPFRONT government who has the BEST interests of humanity operates.





[edit on 17-10-2006 by Agit8dChop]

Originally posted by Blaine91555

What he just said makes sense to me. I don't want my life in the hands of a fanatic!

I am a fanatic because I dont believe in killing rape and torture? Because I want my republic back? Because I save lives and not take them? I am sure the majority of the soldiers over there wish they were not there. There is no doubt that a lot of our youth has become direspectful and violent. Not all of them, there are parents that dii not raise there kids being babysat by violent video games and TV. There are uite a few that did though, and this is what I was refering too. I was not trying to offend anyone that has raised their children properly and are caught up in this nightmare.

To those that think its OK for us to kill Iraqi's because there are some that are killing eachother, you are wrong. It is never ok to take another life unless you are defending yourself or your country or your countries allies are under attack.

I dont want to pay taxes to buy death so we can get a foorhold on the Mid east.

To the Blaine that made the statement above, I feel sorry for your lack of humane feelings and being driven by your ego. I would still extracate you from your vehicle and save your life. I would still go in your burning house and save you and your family, even though I dont know you.

I just want the killing to stop. I am not the one socially engeneering our society into what it is today, this you can blame on your controllers.

I want peace.

Interesting to point out that religious groups once the strong partners on Bush 2004 campaign have deviated from Bush support.

From the source.

A coalition of religious groups staged a protest against the bill outside the White House, shouting "Bush is the terrorist" and "Torture is a crime." About 15 of the protesters, standing in a light rain, refused orders to move. Police arrested them one by one.

I find this rather interesting.

After all Religous groups where the back bone of Bush when it came to conservative Americans.

Originally posted by Blaine91555

What he just said makes sense to me. I don't want my life in the hands of a fanatic!

I am a fanatic because I dont believe in killing rape and torture? Because I want my republic back? Because I save lives and not take them? I am sure the majority of the soldiers over there wish they were not there. There is no doubt that a lot of our youth has become direspectful and violent. Not all of them, there are parents that dii not raise there kids being babysat by violent video games and TV. There are quite a few that did though, and this is what I was refering too. I was not trying to offend anyone that has raised their children properly and are caught up in this nightmare.

To those that think its OK for us to kill Iraqi's because there are some that are killing eachother, you are wrong. It is never ok to take another life unless you are defending yourself or your country or your countries allies are under attack.

I dont want to pay taxes to buy death so we can get a foorhold on the Mid east.

To the Blaine that made the statement above, I feel sorry for your lack of humane feelings and being driven by your ego. I would still extracate you from your vehicle and save your life. I would still go in your burning house and save you and your family, even though I dont know you.

I just want the killing to stop. I am not the one socially engeneering our society into what it is today, this you can blame on your controllers.

I want peace.



[edit on 17-10-2006 by LoneGunMan]

Originally posted by Blaine91555

Nearly every Iraqi killed has been killed by another Iraqi. Not by an American Soldier. Your statements don't acknowledge that fact. Why? Are you intentionally trying to confuse people to get them to agree with your point of view? It would seem that way. I would hate to think you are posting here without ever actually having studied what is going on. If you are up to date on the news then you must be spreading false information on purpose?

You have to be kidding.

Do you have any idea of what the numbers were even before we went in? We had sanctions that were killing children because they couldnt get proper medication, and nutrition. Then after the war we had Abu Ghraibe, horrors like Fallugia, we have killed hundreds of thousands! We need to not do things like this if we are to be a nation of good intentioned people!

The people of Nazi Germany thought they were doing the right thing in theyre war on terror. They didnt start getting wierd until we were blackening there skies with bombers, and created horrors like the firestorm in Dresdon.

What the heck is our excuse?

[edit on 17-10-2006 by LoneGunMan]

I truly do not understand you folk who worry about Bush. You act as if the war in Iraq is illegal. The war is perfectly legal. Contrary to popular belief, the United States did not invade Iraq solely over WMDs, and even if that was the main reason, the WMDs, under their UN definition, were found. So that argument should be gone, case closed. The mainstream media ignored both these little tidbits, however, except for Fox News.

All this stuff about Bush "overstepping" his boundaries, like with the supposed "illegal wiretapping," are again a bunch of baloney. The "wiretapping" is perfectly legal, Clinton did the same thing in the 90s. It is legal because it is not wiretapping. It is the interception of international signals, and there is nothing illegal about that. Furthrmore, the Bush Administration went through all of the proper legal processes in doing the interception of signals. Furthremore, there are algorithms that check to only track specific phone calls. The gov't doesn't have the money, manpower, or time to listen to everyone.

All this stuff about the U.S. becoming a police state is nothing but a bunch of nonsense. Those who think that are being hysterical because of lack of knowledge.

LoneGunMan, there is NO SUCH THING AS PEACE. It doesn't exist. You are falling for that 1960s idealism, that expects us all to be living in some agrarian society with no capitalism, eating vegetables and fruits and loving each other. Peace is not a dream. it is a fantasy. The way you prevent violence is through war, by toppling evil dictators like Saddam Hussein and fighting terrorism.

And in case you haven't known, terrorists have been fighting this country since the 1970s. They just really did it big in 2001, which got everyone's attention.

I would not worry a thing about any bill George bush passes. None of your rights are being removed. If you want to see someone who tried to remove your rights, look at Clinton, when he signed us up for Kyoto, or his wife Hillary, when she tried to sign us up for the World Court. Those will take away your rights in a heartbeat.

Originally posted by WheelsRCool
I truly do not understand you folk who worry about Bush. You act as if the war in Iraq is illegal. The war is perfectly legal. Contrary to popular belief, the United States did not invade Iraq solely over WMDs, and even if that was the main reason, the WMDs, under their UN definition, were found. So that argument should be gone, case closed. The mainstream media ignored both these little tidbits, however, except for Fox News.

Please show me where the aresenal of WMDS was found.
And point out to me where the UN declared the war LEGAL.
" And even if it wasnt the main reason "


you lost the argument right there.. your admitting they lied about the REASON going to war?

This war is anything but legal.
As you will see foreign courts are having a hard time proving that its legal too.
even the UK
www.abovetopsecret.com...'

[edit on 17-10-2006 by Agit8dChop]

LoneGunMan,

The sanctions on Iraq were for military equipment, not medical/food/etc.

Saddam abused the OFF program for his own gain instead of spending it on his people as was the intention.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
This bill concerns me, because after the coming elections, it would not of been allowed to pass.

Thanks for the reply.

On the surface, could not regressive legislation also be made to counter the act “after the election(s)” but, more importantly, was the voting in both houses proportionate to your insinuation…?

Has this act been tried by law at any level?...the are many angles to this, not just what is printed in the WP.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
It concerns me because restricting people of GC is not the proper way to handle issues from a democratic populace.
"alien unlawful enemy combatants engaged in hostilities against the United States for violations of the law of war and other triable offenses"

Really this is nothing new, the bill creates clarity (if read) and an operative word is ‘triable’. This is news becuse of the Nov. elections.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
To me says any foreigner WITHIN the US can be deemed an ALIEN, an un lawful one at that .

Ok…how?

For the rest…read the bill please.

mg

Originally posted by LoneGunMan

Originally posted by Blaine91555

Nearly every Iraqi killed has been killed by another Iraqi. Not by an American Soldier. Your statements don't acknowledge that fact. Why? Are you intentionally trying to confuse people to get them to agree with your point of view? It would seem that way. I would hate to think you are posting here without ever actually having studied what is going on. If you are up to date on the news then you must be spreading false information on purpose?

You have to be kidding.

Do you have any idea of what the numbers were even before we went in? We had sanctions that were killing children because they couldnt get proper medication, and nutrition. Then after the war we had Abu Ghraibe, horrors like Fallugia, we have killed hundreds of thousands! We need to not do things like this if we are to be a nation of good intentioned people!

The people of Nazi Germany thought they were doing the right thing in theyre war on terror. They didnt start getting wierd until we were blackening there skies with bombers, and created horrors like the firestorm in Dresdon.

What the heck is our excuse?

[edit on 17-10-2006 by LoneGunMan]

Actually, it was Saddam Hussein who was torturing andm urdering children left and right in his country. Have you seen the palace he lived in. Do you really think any money given to Iraq, Saddam would've spent on his people?

Furhtermore, yoru argument is ridiculous. Fallujah a horror!? Fallujah is being studied by military academies the world over because it is pretty much the first major battle in history in which a foreign army went fought an enemy in a city while actually making an effort NOT to kill the civilians in there, and it very successful at this as well.

Abu Ghraib? That was ONE SMALL incident involving some apparently corrupt soldiers, who weren't even really torturing the prisoners there. It was not indicative of the entire military. Maybe you should go take a look at a North Korean prison or something like that.

Killed hundreds of thousands? Now you've got to be smoking something. And no, Nazi Germans did not think it was doing the right think. At first, Hitler lied and told the soldiers Germany or something was being invaded to inspire them to invade Poland (I think it was that?). Whichever place they invaded first. The Nazis, however, overall knew it was an evil thing to be fighting all of Europe.

Furthermore, Hitler lied. Bush didn't.

Originally posted by WheelsRCool

I would not worry a thing about any bill George bush passes. None of your rights are being removed. If you want to see someone who tried to remove your rights, look at Clinton, when he signed us up for Kyoto, or his wife Hillary, when she tried to sign us up for the World Court. Those will take away your rights in a heartbeat.

What do you think is going to happen when a Bill Clinton gets the power that Bush has given him/her?

Sorry but peace is not a 60's ideal. We can make peace a reality, at least where the United States is concerned. If you understand how startegy and logistics in war work you would realize this.

You see the Swiss getting attacked? You are buying the corporate line of BS. We only attack countries for money and power anymore. I dont want to be a part of that. Some country has that stupidity to assault America then I will be one of the first to defend my home and family.

I thought the u.s.was the convention's defender?This only further damage an already damaged world image and emperil our forces over seas unlucky enough to be taken captive.

Originally posted by WheelsRCool

Abu Ghraib? That was ONE SMALL incident involving some apparently corrupt soldiers, who weren't even really torturing the prisoners there. It was not indicative of the entire military. Maybe you should go take a look at a North Korean prison or something like that.

That small incedent was worst for them than physical torture. The religious belief they have (at least the religios fanatics) make them feel they are not going to heaven because of the acts that they were made to do. They feel they need to die before doing them. This was done to inflame the Arab world so we would be attacked again and give those creeps in Washington an excuse top take the rest of your rights that stand in there way to ultimate power.

Killed hundreds of thousands? Now you've got to be smoking something. And no, Nazi Germans did not think it was doing the right think. At first, Hitler lied and told the soldiers Germany or something was being invaded to inspire them to invade Poland (I think it was that?). Whichever place they invaded first. The Nazis, however, overall knew it was an evil thing to be fighting all of Europe.

Furthermore, Hitler lied. Bush didn't.

You dont even know for sure if it was poland or not? He made the same arguments Bush made to get the people so the were foaming at the mouth. Bush didnt lie? When was that? The German people were not evil, why would you insult an entire country that way. They were misled by a fanatic that burned his own Riechshtag and said the Communist polish terroists did it.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop

Originally posted by WheelsRCool
I truly do not understand you folk who worry about Bush. You act as if the war in Iraq is illegal. The war is perfectly legal. Contrary to popular belief, the United States did not invade Iraq solely over WMDs, and even if that was the main reason, the WMDs, under their UN definition, were found. So that argument should be gone, case closed. The mainstream media ignored both these little tidbits, however, except for Fox News.

Please show me where the aresenal of WMDS was found.
And point out to me where the UN declared the war LEGAL.
" And even if it wasnt the main reason "


you lost the argument right there.. your admitting they lied about the REASON going to war?

This war is anything but legal.
As you will see foreign courts are having a hard time proving that its legal too.
even the UK
www.abovetopsecret.com...'

[edit on 17-10-2006 by Agit8dChop]

www.foxnews.com... - WMDs were found according to UN definition.

And NO, they did not lie about it. The MEDIA lied about it, making out as if WMDs were the main reason for going into Iraq. There were seven reasons, mainly being 1) Saddam routinely violated the 1991 Gulf War cease-fire, and Saddam never abided by the 17 UN resolutions, 2) Saddam is deceptive aobut his WMD capabilities and repeatedly thumbed his nose at the world community, 3) Saddam has WMDs, 4) Saddam has ties to al-Quaeda, 5) Saddam intends to develop additional WMD programs, 6) Saddam's removal would help in the democratization of the Middle East, 7) Saddam Hussein is a ruthless dictator and war criminal, he and those members of his régime need to be brought to account for their crimes on humanity (confirmed by The UN Commission on Human Rights, the UN General Assembly, the International Red Cross and Amnesty International).

(Here they are):

Refusal to Admit Human Rights Monitors
Violence Against Women
Torture
Executions and Repression of Political Opposition
Abuse of Children
Disappearances, including over 16,000 Kurds and Shiites
Denial of Basic Freedoms: Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press, Freedom of Information
Withholding of Food
Crimes Against Muslim Religious leaders and their followers

(There’s more, but to wrap it up, Powell concluded):
In Summary, the goals of the United States are simple
1) fight terrorism, to include those that support or harbor terrorists
2) uphold and enforce United Nations Security Council Resolutions
3) disarm a dangerous regime that possesses weapons of mass destruction; and,
4) remove a ruthless dictator (i.e., Saddam Hussein) and promote Democracy in the region

Now the media simplified it all by saying the reason for going to war was WMDs. The real reasons were more complex.

Now, as to whether the above reasons make the war legal, apparently many countires worldwide still say no. The United States says yes, and I'd have to agree. You can't torture people, violate UN resolutions, kill people, and violate a cease-fire, and call it illegal to go in and take the guy out. The UN essentially BACKED OUT of its own threats.