Police state, only way to be safe

Yeah, I'm a jaskass. I don't know my consitiution as well as I thought. Just did a reread and I'm wrong...

Vas

i havent any time to reply to anyone but i plan on doing so after my kid goes to her moms tonight. i must get back to work, why i cant respond. but ill say this, what good is the constitution and its rights given: to a dead innocent man. one who died from a preventable terrorist attack or a preventable crime. the only rights i would see you giving up with a bigger brother is your right to be criminals. dont you believe in laws and justice. well lets bring all the criminals to justice. ok i must go back to work, just trying to add fuel to the fire. peace

Originally posted by elitegamer23
if it means i can go to the movies without being blown up, if it means i can fly anywhere in the usa without being blown up, if it means that i can be safe from crack addicts who might wana rob me for crack money then im all for a police state. more power to the goverment. its our only hope to never be hit from home grown terrorism. we need more cops and less guns in the hands of the people. imagine if we had a camera on every corner and every alley in american cities . it would be a great deterent. if the goverment could wire tap everyone we would have less crime. jsut build more prisons. its cheaper then wellfare. crime in america is on the rise. remember us americans want saftey more then education and a clean planet. we need a bigger brother watching us.

If you love the police state so much, why don't you move to China, Iran, Venezuela, or any number of police states already out there?

I mean, if youre so worried about safety, why dont you move to one of those "safe" countries?

since when has a police state historically:

a) Has the intended effect

b) Created a happy fulfilled populace

c) Not been the basis for facism or equally sinister political force?

oh and the answer is 'never'

Elitegamer, this has been tried before, the former Soviet Union comes to mind. I was there in 1977, there were 4 KGB on every street corner and when I was anywhere in public, no one, not one person ever laughed or looked like they were having fun. Everyone was very serious and afraid. It is true they did not have a drug problem then, they weren't obtainable, but the rate of alcholism was off the chart. In fact it was so bad that nothing in the whole country worked right. That's just one example of the police state not working. And it's true that the average person was less likely to be assaulted by criminals, but the real problem is that the government became the terrorists. Everyone I met in the Soviet Union was terrified of their government. Quite honestly, I find your idea to be very scary. Being free from government tyranny is what this country was founded on. To become a police state flies in the face of everything America was built on.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
If you love the police state so much, why don't you move to China, Iran, Venezuela, or any number of police states already out there?

BTW, I know this is beside the point, but Venezuela is not a police state.

When people say "police state" what they really have is a facist state.
In "The Art of War" Sun Tzu said the purpose of the Military is to protect the government from their enemies. The purpose of the "police" is to protect and serve the public.

In practice, when the military becomes the police, the public becomes the enemy.

Live free or die

original quote by: Sauron
If you have not got the balls to live or die as a free person, then you deserve enslavement.

This line, good sir, has earned you my unalterable respect and also, this:

You have voted Sauron for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

way to be completely on the ball

NEXT:
elitegamer23

I think one of our greatest forefathers, Mr. Benjamin Franlkin, would be greatly disheartened to read the posts you have made here today. And I quote:

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Tempory Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Wise words from a wise man.

The ENTIRE reasoning behind the terrorists actions are from Bushes own mouth; they hate freedom. Can you see that by giving our govt unlimited power to control and observe every moment in everyones life that the terrorists(whether the govt.. or real jihadists...or both are your culprits) are succeeding even if they dont blow something up? If you doubt this then look back to earlier this week. The plot gets foiled; no explosion, and then clamp; more restrictions.

original quote by: elitegamer23
xphiles your right, ive never heard of someone being blown up in a theater. but for some reason everytime i go to the movies with my daughter, usually once a weekend, im sitting there looking at everyone heads in a perfect place to cause mass casualties. thank god we dont have suicide bombings in america. because a packed movie theater would sadly be a perfect place to cause massive carnage. next time you go to the movies. imagine one grenade or a suicide vest going off, head level.

This is the biggest reason why the WOT is vastly overblown; and heres why.
You havnt seen a single suicide bombing in america.. not a one since 911. If there was a real jihad against all of america; as is claimed, then the above scenario you just mentioned would be happening in every town in america. but it hasnt... not once in 5 years.. and its not because our law enforcement have prevented it. It is because it is not happening.

original quote by:elitegamer23
vitchillo ever thought of defending the constitution with your life since your such a patriot

if this isnt the pot calling the kettle black.... try reading the Constitution and you may begin to understand exactly why your hopes for a police state are soooooooo very contradictory to the very basic foundations of our beloved Constitution and Bill of rights.

original quote by:elitegamer23
some patriot you are sauron. your not willing to defend the constitution with your life

Actually it is you that are not prepared to give your life to save the Constitution and heres why:

You are so afraid to die by the hands of a terrorist that you are willing to trade in the parts of the Constitution that grants civil liberties to the populace; for the sake of security. If you are willing to trade in the fourth Amendment, the First amendment, etc... today... then what "parts" of the Constitution would you be willing to trade tomorrow? Being a Patriot in America is not whether you join an Armed forces and even less; what political affiliation you swear your allegiance to. But rather, the Constitution as It is the Sole reason for this country being one of the greatest political experiments that has ever graced the earth. But thanks to people who think such as you... This most treasured of documents; living and breathing; gasps for breath. Do you not see that your very actions are what is helping to drive the knife through the heart of the Constitution?

I, sir, would rather have me AND my entire family blown to bits and have the Constitution left intact and to have our ideals thrive; then to live a single day in what you would like to see as the future of freedom.

What value has freedom left; when all is spent on unattainable security?

original quote by:elitegamer23
what good is the constitution and its rights given: to a dead innocent man.

What good is a Constitution that is cast aside at every sign of trouble?... Times of emergency are when the Constitutions laws become most important. It is easy to follow the guidelines of the Constitution in times of peace... But when war rears its ugly head as it has since this countries inception.. thats when its mettle is tested.

original quote by: elitegamer23
the only rights i would see you giving up with a bigger brother is your right to be criminals. dont you believe in laws and justice.

the problem with this, of course, is that in a police state.. what is and what isnt illegal can change as fast as those in power wish it to. And that, is unacceptable.
Just think something you are doing one day like going to the movies is legal.. the next day all movies are outlawed no more cinamas,dvd's,vhs...nothing. then what you are instantly a criminal for having a collection of Mel brooks movies on dvd?
Sure this example is a bit extreme.. but then again so is your propsal for a police state. And FYI, I am NO CRIMINAL...

original quote by:elitegamer23
well lets bring all the criminals to justice.

Indeed!
Let justice be done though thy heavens fall.... until its you that faces the "new Justice"...remember that well.

May Lady Liberty shine her countanence upon you and deliver you from the depths of tyranny

thank you for your time.

i can't believe this!

is this the opinion held by the masses nowadays?



elitegamer, you're really concerned about the four thwarted terrorist attacks in the UK.

how many successful terror attacks have there been since 9/11?

are you really that concerned about it?

we've been attacked once, in New York City. there haven't even been any attempts on American soil since then, in five years, and you want a POLICE STATE because of it?

go read 1984. then read Brave New World. then come back and tell me you really think the government is competent and benevolent enough to control every single aspect of our lives.

i don't know about you, but every real freedom-loving American will be out there alongside me armed and ready to fight against any incursion of facism upon American soil.

(oh, and KickouttheJams-- Eris prevails.)

The problem is that things like the Patriot act and now more legislation to curtail freedoms are inching those conditions closer all the time against the shadowy spectre of the War on Terror. Will we wake up to 'too late' sometime? Or will it take a coup? America needs to take its freedoms back and be that country that stands for freedom that we all used to look up to.

For Parallelogram 'it is an ill wind that blows no minds' - Mal the Younger

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Originally posted by Britguy
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Who guards the guards?

[edit on 14/8/2006 by Mirthful Me]

Originally posted by Sauron

Originally posted by elitegamer23
do you think all the men who died in vietnam werent patriots? im guessing you think it was a corrupt goverment fighting that war as well. ok sorry people its late late late,

Yes I do think it was corrupt, just as this War on Terror is corrupt.

I have to agree with the Canadian here.

And no not everyone who went over there was a patriot.

Ever hear of this saying???

"You either go to jail or go to Vietnam, your choice."
This is what was said to some people who were in court facing trial for misc stupid stuff they did.

So in other to get out of jail they go to Vietnam.

So, no not everyone was doing that for their country. They were doing it to save their asses from going to jail for a few yrs.

Also the war in Vietnam was another bs ploy to get us into another senseless war, alot of those doves were right on alot of things... Maybe you should do some research on some things before you spout of on who is being patriotic on what. Cause if you were I don't think you would make such foolish statements.

God help us all from the fearfull masses. In mid-Michigan someone called the police on a couple of guys for buying too many celphones, and when the police checked the van they were driving they fond about a thousand phones. Now they are up on charges of suspected terrorism. They were acually purchasing them for resale oveseas, because they are so cheap at America's Wal-Marts. Free trade at its best.

If we end up with a police state and my freedom and privacy go away, I and hundereds of thousands like me (a lot of cops think like I do too and most of the Fire service) will go to war on this government. I am a male, and I am expendible for my families freedom. I will not live ONE DAY in a police state.

There is an old saying, "Absolute power corrupts absolutely!".
Lets think this out, shall we.

You want the government to have a increased presence, everywhere it seems. The justification for this would be to prevent terrorists attacks and crime.

So you and your buddies spread this message to the citizens of your country. You get a majority of people behind this idea and your government listens to you. Cameras are installed, listening devices go into every home, and everyone is given the new "badge of citizenship", which is in fact an ID card with some sort of tracking device in it.

At first everyone is weary of what they say, but soon people forget the devices are there. The cameras become common place in everyones minds and life gets back to normal. The crime rate goes down and the measures are hailed as a resounding success.

Only now during the night, you can hear the tires of police paddy wagons speeding to and fro. A house down the street gets raided and the owners are arrested. When questioned about the event, police will not answer on grounds of "national security".

New laws begin to take effect. Civilian gun ownership is declared illegal, and the police are soon knocking on your door. You turn over your rifle, in the name of public safety, but your neighbor refuses and is promptly hauled away. The justification for this is that a safe society can't have its citizens with guns.

The Internet Monitoring Station is soon completed, and a new round of arrests are made. "National security" are the only words that the police commissioner will say to the press these days. More and more people are towed away, never to be heard from again. You have done nothing wrong though, so you have nothing to worry about.

Then comes the day when you wake up, turn on the television, and hear that something else has been banned. It could be that all churches are to be closed, or that anyone who utters a curse word will be arrested. Whatever it is, you see that your government has gone too far. You decide to write your representative. Elections haven't been held in years, but that doesn't mean your voice won't be heard! You draft up the letter, and mail it. That night you fall asleep with an uneasy feeling in your stomach. Hopefully things will be better in the morning.

CRACK! You are awoken by a harsh noise. Your eyes slowly focus to see four men, dressed in heavy SWAT gear, over top of you. There is no time to yell or move, you are hit in the head with the butt of a rifle.

You slowly awaken with a throbbing pain in your head, you are on your back. You dare not open your eyes, already knowing where you are. You heard rumors of what they did to prisoners, but never thought them true. Oh no, you are not going to open your eyes. You can hear others moaning and writhing around you, don't open your eyes. Its starting to get colder and you can't feel your legs, don't open your eyes. You are drifting into a deep darkness, don't open your eyes!

Don't open your eyes, there's nothing left to see.

will we all agree that the main concern with american voters in every major election since 9/11 was safety and security. well that is the purpose of a democracy. to have a goverment of the people for the people, and the people have spoken. americans vote for the man that will give them a more safe and secure country. it was the american voters who put the people in office who passed the patriot act 1, which had major democratic support, and the voters also put the people in office who passed patriot act 2.

we the people of the united states want to be safe so we can be alive to enjoy liberty . the best way to achieve these goals is through more control by our goverment. maybe a civilian run big brother now that i think about it. if we can listen to every spoken word in this country via wire tapping and other means we have a much better chance to stop any oklahoma city type attack, and it probably would have prevented 9/11.

just because there have been many failed police states throughout history doesnt mean we have to mimic those. we could create a better big brother. one more like the uk. better then the big brother in the uk. i dont see people running for the borders in the uk. lets have more checks and balances in our goverment. have big brother run by the civilians so the three branches of our goverment would have someone watching over them as well. not just the people. that way you would have the executive branch, legislative, and judicial keeping big brother in check , and at the same time big brother keeping our already corrupted goverment in check. if we had such, our goverment wouldnt be running our country down the drain.

what do you people have to hide from uncle sam. if your not a criminal, if your not selling drugs to kids, if your not plotting to blow up an american landmark , i see no reason to be fearful. if we have a better big brother run by the people.

sauron dont start attacking me personally, or my testicular fortitude, because i simply am taking up the other side of an arguement. saying someone doesnt have balls strikes me as being immature and i promise you ive gotten better use out of my testicles then you ever could. im expressing my freedom of speech , my first amendement right . something you will defend with your blood. so respect that .

that is the misconception here.
i dont think we have to give up our rights. we can still have freedom of speech with a big brother. we can still have our right to bear arms. yeah the right to privacy might be hampered but hasnt it already. maybe with a big brother being run by the civilians , with checks and balances from the three branches of our goverment , such things as covert wire tapping wont happen to the extent it already is. if you have nothing to hide, then you dont have to fear illegal search and siezures.

tone 23 , im glad you are no criminal and i never thought you were. we cant prevent the technology being created today and its inevitable that it will become part of our security someday and a weapon used by our police. i dont think the writters of the constitution realized that one day in our countries future we could have such weapons as an atom bomb that could kill millions of innocent civilians in one fatal blast. im sure they would have wanted to do anything to stop such an action. even if it meant giving up some liberties such as a more watered down 4th amendment. what good is liberty if you have no life. we might as well figure out how to use big brother correctly , in such a way that the constitution and the bill of rights can be protected properly because were already well on our way to a more controlled society. why not do it right .


quote: Originally posted by Britguy
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

im sorry i only speak english, sadly
who guards the guard. easy, the civilian run big brother of america. you and i are the guard who watches over the guard. dont you all want our goverment kept in check. its obvious they arent at the moment. quit thinking this new big brother is run by bushie and company. it will be run by jane and john doe of america. civilian run like the pentagon, with no influence from dc. the civilian big brother will notify our goverment when they need to take an action against any terrorist or criminal. we wont be able to stop big brother at this current pace. your all right we lose more freedoms everytime a terrorist attack is carried out or stopped. well lets do it right instead of allowing the politicians, bushie and co, dictate how our inevitable big brother will be run.

crime in america is on the rise. drug use in america runs rampant throughout every city in america. the next major terroist attack which has been promised to make 9/11 look minuscule could happen any day. why not stop all that. a civilian run big brother can stomp on these problems . a civilian run big brother can prevent another 9/11. its not about destroying the constitution and bill of rights. its not our right to be a criminal. its about protecting our lives . in a way it would be about protecting our freedoms. if america falls like every empire before it, what good would the constitution be. it would simple be a piece of paper. lets not let this happen.

quit thinking im talking 1984 , nazi type fascism, im talking about a big brother run by the people for the people. is it possible . lets hope so , because we are well on our way to a goverment run big brother.

now i ask you people , please be kind with your words towards me. im simply taking the opposite side of an arguement here. if you knew how i truly felt you would lol at all of this. i just wish my kid could grow up in an america that i used to believe i was living in, but it doesnt appear so. big brother is going to happen someday , its already happening. the only way i see a better big brother , for the people, is to give that power to the people. wouldnt you like to see big brother watching over bush and co right now? peace

edited for poor spelling
[edit on 14-8-2006 by elitegamer23]

[edit on 14-8-2006 by elitegamer23]

Your idea of a Big Brother for the people makes no sense.

First who is going to pay for all of this. Certainly not the government.

If the officials are evil then why would they let us have a tool to identify them? If the officials are not evil then why would they let civilians use this center to spy on other civilians?

Do you feel you have the right to watch me whenever you want.

Do you feel I have the right to watch your child whenever I want.
Certainly not!

There is no government on this planet that would resist the urge to abuse this power!

I simply cannot believe that anyone would say we need a Big Brother.Or worse,a "Bigger Brother".It seems the government fear tactics have worked.They've succeded in scaring the American public (at lest some of the American public) into submission.

Make no mistake about it my friend,fear is their ultimate weapon.Make them fear,and promise them protection from all the evils of life.Have no fear,there are still a few of
us real patriots out here,and you can be sure we aren't afraid.

"Stop being frightened. You only see a monster because they want you to see monsters everywhere. They've conditioned you to look for monsters in every shadow, every coat hung on every door. As long as we keep seeing monsters, we'll continue to need protection, and that's how other people get control of our lives."

- Grant Morrison's "Doom Patrol"

Originally posted by elitegamer23
ok i must go back to work, just trying to add fuel to the fire. peace

(bolded by me)

I think that's the most correct and honest thing that I've seen you type in this thread.

As to a "big brother", it looks like it could be coming, assuming it's not already here.

The nation's chief of homeland security said Sunday that the U.S. should consider reviewing its laws to allow for more electronic surveillance and detention of possible terror suspects...

Michael Chertoff, secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, stopped short of calling for immediate changes, noting there might be constitutional barriers to the type of wide police powers the British had...

(emphasis mine)

But why is all of that truly nescessary when already...

Chertoff said he believed that the nation's airline screeners were well-positioned to catch future terrorists.

If they're already "well positioned" what's the purpose of a further grab for power against "constitutional barriers"?

I just wonder, what's going to be the "straw that breaks the camel's back".

[edit on 8/14/06 by redmage]

who will pay for the new civilian big brother. simple the same people who will pay for the goverment run big brother. the american tax payers.
at the current pace, big brother in america is going to be a fact someday.
would i want someone watching my child? let me change your question, would i rather have john and jane doe or george and dick watching my child.
ill take john and jane doe .
we will have big brother someday, lets do it right.

"Stop being frightened. You only see a monster because they want you to see monsters everywhere. They've conditioned you to look for monsters in every shadow, every coat hung on every door. As long as we keep seeing monsters, we'll continue to need protection, and that's how other people get control of our lives."

- Grant Morrison's "Doom Patrol"

who do you consider the monster. bush and co? our goverment? well lets have the people watch them as well as watch out for criminals and terrorist.

do you people actually believe with the technology today, and the move on this planet towards a more controlled society that we will never see a big brother in america. are you about to let it be run by the elite. the corrupt. i understand where your fears come from.

all i ask is to see there is another way to this INEVITABLE future. stop being so scared about something that Is going to happen. we cant stop it. its time now to get the word out to create a more just big brother. one without controll by a corrupt goverment. one to protect us , the american people, from any evil or power hungry goverment, its the only option we may have.

would you not like seeing big brother watching over bush and co. i think you would.


im sorry i must take my kid to dance , ill be back later, peace all and thank you for your time. redmage your on to something

[edit on 14-8-2006 by elitegamer23]

It is a sad historical fact that the causes of war and why the war is fought are two distinct and unrelated things. This is because the leaders cause the wars, and convince the people to fight the war. Lies are told on all sides. The causes of war are always political power and greed. Were the British soldiers rallied to battle, to risk death and to kill others just so the King could get richer?
Did German soldiers fight for Hitlers right to live like a king? They had been misled to believe that all evil was the work of the Jews and honestly believed that they needed to purge the world of evil. Did North Koreans fight because they their leader deserved the lifestyle they lived, or did they fight to unify their country under one government.
With the war in Iraq, we appear to be moving ever closer to a Corporate run police state. Since 9/11 many laws have been passed that affect the many, exempt the very wealthy, and put more and more power under the control of corporations. theh Patriot act, the DMCA ( which allowed enforcement of copyrighting ideas, not just publishable works), UCITA (gives corporations the power to enforce the DMCA while granting Corporations immunity from the DMCA)
the requirement for politically correct speech in the workplace ( ghosts of Orwellian Newspeak)...
How long before people are arrested for thoughtcrimes?


[edit on 14-8-2006 by niklaus]