Police state, only way to be safe

Originally posted by elitegamer23

would i want someone watching my child? let me change your question, would i rather have john and jane doe or george and dick watching my child.
ill take john and jane doe .

[edit on 14-8-2006 by elitegamer23]

Do not dodge the question. Do you feel that I, someone you have never met, has the right to have access to a center where I can watch you and your family?

I heard this from a guy a while ago, but it fits the discussion.

"The price of democracy is crime"

Now a democratic society is conducive to crime because of the rights granted to its citizens. People can abuse these rights and commit crime. Now this does not throw out the entire system of democracy because there is an institution to deal with this problem. The Law. You have police who catch criminals, and courts who make sure that a person is guilty of the crime he is accused of (at least in theory).

Now, yes you must have a good police force that has all the resources it needs to fulfill its duty, but this is no excuse to irresponsible deal out power. Everyone is human, and I trust no person with the power you wish to grant the government.

When it comes to terrorism, you do not defeat terrorism by a police state at home. You defeat terrorism with sound foreign policy and responsible safety measures at home.

I want to scream collaborator at the top of my lungs!

[edit on 14-8-2006 by Nihilist Fiend]

elite you know who I am, I believe we have had some lengthy U2Us with eachother. Let me start right off the bat and completely disagree with you. I understand your desire to protect, its human nature to want to protect your family. Let me reassure you though that death is an important part of life.

To live free, actually to live at all, is a risk. Death is around every corner. No matter how much protection you make, people die. Thats just a part of life at the end of the day. People will die, whether it be terrorists or cancer. You ask me why fight against the inevitable big brother government, I ask you why you fight against the inevitable death that awaits you at the end of the road? I wish we could save everyone all the time, but at the same time I don't. I know enough at this point to know that we need the bad just as much as the good.

People die, and its just unavoidable no matter what you do. Sure its sad, but you need to understand thats part of appriciating life. This is what its all about. Life is nothing more then one big risk. Every choice is a risk, no matter how small the choice may be. Every risk can have a good and equally bad reaction. Thats the bottem line pretty much. Life is about cheating death everyday your here and appriciating it as much as possible. Everyday is not another day you survived but another day you took a risk and missed death.

Im going to mass an einstein quote and another quote "Two things are infinite: death and taxes; and I'm not sure about the the taxes."
Thats the truth. Lets take your advice, stop trying to avoid the inevitable.

p.s.-the reason we are suppose a republic and not a democracy is to avoid what you suggest. To take away certian unalienable rights.

[edit on 14-8-2006 by grimreaper797]

It is an unfortunate fact that there are many who think like elitegamer. And i do fear if/when there is another terrorist attack in America, the American people will flock by the millions begging the government to keep us safe, and thus, a police state.


Thank goodness though, that as soon as the United States ceases to become what it is, a bastion of civil and religious freed, i take that as a sign that the end of the world is soon coming.

Elite, you will not be enjoying many movies when your curfew is at 8:00 PM and you get home at 4 in the afternoon. How about posting here at ATS? Kiss that goodbye. Simply being a member will most undoubetdly have you arrested. Whats that? You do not agree with a Federal decision to destroy a historic district for the creation of Godlessness in the form of a club district and adult bookstores for the purpose of increased tax revenue? Better not show up at the protests, you shall be hauled away.

Well it is too late to state your discomfort anymore, every word you say is being monitored, a move YOU supported. Expressing discontent with the governments agendas will become a harsh crime with harsh punishment, which can now be any kind of torture they wish, because only they will know about it.

I can't belive anyone in US would want his country to become a police state. A prison for its own citizen! If such 'big brother' things come truth, US could become most dreadfull country in world's history, an empire of evil, an opposition to what it was (and, I hope still is) - the land of free.

I don't live in US, but I belive people of America will know how to deal with such threat - threat much worse then the death itself!

[edit on 14-8-2006 by Duby78]

Originally posted by elitegamer23
vitchillo ever thought of defending the constitution with your life since your such a patriot. enlist in the army , navy , airforce or marines. we need more patriots like you fighting the war in irag. please enlist or your full of it.

[edit on 13-8-2006 by elitegamer23]

You must be joking! Enlisting in the military isn't the only way to defend the constitution. They have something in the constitution called "Freedom of Speech" in case you didn't know. You can stand up and speak freely to defend the constitution or write letters to your congressman. By the way, a "Police State" is exactly what the terrorist want. If that's what you want as well than you're letting the terrorist win already. You can still be safe in America and still have your freedoms. Terrorist hate our freedoms. So asking or letting the government to take them away is exactly what the terrorist want. What do you think our founding fathers fought for?

I think everyone needs to calm down a bit.

I could be wrong but, I think I smell a little bit of "Reductio ad Absurdum" going on here.

Originally posted by elitegamer23
now i ask you people , please be kind with your words towards me. im simply taking the opposite side of an arguement here. if you knew how i truly felt you would lol at all of this.

See?

It's common form of philosophical argument.

[edit on 8/14/06 by redmage]

Ok before you all decide to make me walk the plank PLEASE REALIZE something.

im not for more control, im dont want to be watched by our goverment , i dont want a police state. BUT our freedoms are already being eroded and its only going to get worse.

I was just taking the opposite side of an arguement because no one else would dare so on such a subject.
Into this discussion i did realize something . It is happening . We all know were moving towards a police state, a bigger brother , and there doesnt seem to be anything we can do to change it.

Not even putting democrats into office will change the process that is taking place. They are just as evil as the republicans and i believe they are both controlled by the same elite that control us.

There is nothing we can do to stop it. Or is there? Will we wait until they have the absolute power they desire , then rise up with all our fellow citizens to take back our country? By then it will be too late. We could not fight the usa war machine with simple shot guns and pistols. we could not engage the usa military in guerilla warfare ,for they will have mastered that fight by the time we realize its too late. We would be deemed terrorist and we would be defeated and destroyed.

so the question is, what can we do. I think one of our only options would be to become the big brother we so fear. take this absolute power out of the hands of our goverment before its too late. We must become the big brother. that is the only way we can keep big brother out of the goverments hands. ITS GOING TO HAPPEN, AND ALREADY IS HAPPENING.

right now as it is we have 2 choices for the future . Let the goverment become big brother, or let the goverment become big brother. Its going to happen and i dont see how you could argue with me on such. If we stand idle we will lose. we will lose everything you people so adamantly defended in your arguements with me. Our constitutional rights, our bill or rights. Our freedom and our liberties. Its not the terrorist trying to take these things from us, its our goverment.

would you rather have athird choice, the third being, big brother controlled by the PEOPLE. it seems to be our only option, for i dont see how we can stop what is already happening and is only going to get worse.

how can we do this? Your guess is as good as mine. its probably too late, but i see no other way we can prevent absolute power by our goverment. We can only find a way to give this absolute power to the PEOPLE. that is the only option i realistically see to keep us from being controlled by the wrong people. We must act soon for our freedoms are being taken away , and we are being watched and listened to already.

Would it not be a better union if THE PEOPLE CONTROLLED BIG BROTHER was watching everymove the us goverment makes. It would make us more safe, in so many aspects of society. even more safe from true terrorism.

grim yes i remember you, i never forget someone whos intelligence is beyond his age. how have you been, i have been distracted by life for the longest of time and lost contact with ats for a while. shame on me. its good to hear from you again mate. ok im done , i must go cook dinner. peace all.

sorry i had to change my tone in this discussion. you people were treating me like a nazi

thank you for noticing i was just creating simple discussion redmage,im giving u my wats vote just for being so nice, and ty for anyone who didnt want to send me off to cuba.

[edit on 14-8-2006 by elitegamer23]

You keep speaking of this Big Brother controlled by the people think. What on earth are you trying to get at.

You want people to elect a union of officials to watch what the government does. We already have watchdog groups like that out there. Besides that union would most likely be corrupted in the same fashion the regular government is. Why not take the people you wanted for the specialized union and just vote them into the plain-old vanilla government.

Sometimes the government needs to be behind closed doors. Would this union report all of the counter-terror measures that are taking place? Would it divulge military secrets in the name of transparency? Why would the regular government agree to be spied on, and no less, spend tax payers money on it?

If you truly fear Big Brother fix the government you have, don't start a new one to watch it.

Sorry if it seems heated, but I just go nuts when someone talks about domestic spying.

[edit on 14-8-2006 by Nihilist Fiend]

Disgusting. How dare one suggest we sacrifice our American liberties? Does anyone realize how ignorant that is?! So many have died, given their lives to give this to us and people are willing to give this up so they can "feel" safer?! This is ludicrous! How dare anyone take their sacrifices for granted and throw them away like that?!

I can go on and on...

[edit on 14-8-2006 by Johnmike]

we all fear big brother, but its happening. we cant stop it . i just think the power needs to be with people who wont abuse it so badly. kind of a check and balance. the goverment watching over big brother and big brother watching over the goverment and using the powers that it will inevitably have. they both would be out to protect the people and the constitution.

it wouldnt be difficult to give this power to the people. set it up like the pentagon. make it a civilian agency. jsut with no goverment influence. WE CANT STOP WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN. might as well make it more people friendly. i must eat now , ill be back later. peace

Originally posted by elitegamer23

"Stop being frightened. You only see a monster because they want you to see monsters everywhere. They've conditioned you to look for monsters in every shadow, every coat hung on every door. As long as we keep seeing monsters, we'll continue to need protection, and that's how other people get control of our lives."

- Grant Morrison's "Doom Patrol"

who do you consider the monster. bush and co? our goverment? well lets have the people watch them as well as watch out for criminals and terrorist.

[edit on 14-8-2006 by elitegamer23]

The "monsters" refer to the fears that people such as Bush & Co. manufacture to scare us into begging them to take control of our lives.Terrorism, gas prices, "your neighbor is a terrorist" type thinking.So what it's saying is stop being frightened of everything,and perhaps we won't feel the need for some government nanny.

As for having "Big Brother" watch over the government as well. There is another favorite quote of mine.

"Who watches the watchmen?"

Also,whether your just taking the opposite side of an argument or not,you can't tell me you didn't expect this to get somewhat heated.Your presenting one side of an argument,or so you say,and some of us are the opposing side of that.I hardly think that means we're treating you like a "Nazi".

Our government -is- civilian, that is headed by elected officials. The problems that arise are normal in any government and screamning "NEW GOVERNMENT! AAAA!" is uncalled for. The problem is the government is massive, far too much so, but there's nothing evil about the US government.

First I would like to say never forget the power we all have. We hold control of everything in this country. Dont for one second believe the media telling you that there is nothing you can do. We control everything.

We can control walmart, we can control gas prices, we can control SECURITY, we can control our borders, hell at this point we can economically control other countries (consumer base). Its the government and business that wants you to believe you don't have the power to accomplish it. Its pretty simple. The government and media drills it in that people alone cant stop criminals. People then go..."well who can stop these criminals?" and thats where they make their first mistake. They believe they don't have the power to do something.

Let me let everyone in on a little secret, if the majority of americans wanted to win the war on drugs...you would not these drugs anymore. If the majority of the people wanted to have the borders completely secure and immigrants out...these immigrants would be out within a year or two and our borders would be close to impassable. How do we do this? Free enterprise. Thats our anti-dictatorship. Lets take it in a different look:

100 people each have 1 individual power. there is one government and this has the power of one person at the start. People decide they want government to secure their borders. now government has a power of 10 people rather then 1 and people have less power, only the power of 90. Even though there are 100 people, they no longer have as much power, thus have less influence. Less influence means the less they can change. Next they say "we want government to handle our healthcare" there goes another 10 people power. all the sudden government has 20 people power and 100 people only have the power of 80 people. Eventally you have given up all your power to government. How does it happen?

Laziness. The more lazy you become the more responsiblities you want to pass off. If you have less responsibility, you can be more lazy. There is no doubt that a goal of our government and big business is to make us as lazy and dependent as possible. Its the key to dictatorship. There is no threat if there is no opposing power, and there is no opposing power if the only other power willingly wants you to control them. Makes it pretty easy then now doesn't it?

The key to stopping this, stop believing you can't. Organize and act. Sometimes the action will be knowing when to not act at all. When I say that I mean collectively stop going to work one day, and continue to do that until they say "we give in" and believe me they will. The damage will be to a very high extent. You must show whos in control and do more then just say it. The greatest action you can do right now is to all collectively do nothing at the same time and continue it until they give in. There is a catch though. You need a middle class.

The reason being is you need people who can survive for more then one week without a paycheck. People that need to feed their children and NEED that paycheck are not going to be willing to give up that paycheck. The middle class needs to take the biggest stand. Stop working (no more tax paying...very damaging), no more spending uselessly. Act like an EMP bomb went off. The only thing you want to be paying for is food. Dont use electricity much, don't drive, don't go to the movies. Best bet, get the community together and play a sport outside. Have a get together. Go do things that don't cost you money, and I can garentee you there are pleanty of things (we made due, and still do with almost nothing if we have to).

Its hard, but the question is, how much are you willing to give to get your country back. I once said to a friends "Somethings worth is only measured by what your willing to sacrifice in order to obtain it". That couldn't be more true here. How much is this worth to you? Is it worth that video game, that nightly tv show? How about that hummer taking up all that gas? Is it worth that shopping spree? Because if you ask the founders of this country, they would have told you it was worth their lives. Thats the biggest sacrifice that is made usually. We hope we don't have to do that, but how much is it worth to you?

I think this is an instance where someone sees something wrong and then says "Someone should really do something about that!"

I implore you, what are you talking about? Do you want to put a camera in every senators office and have the feed open on a web site I could visit? Shall we implant every elected official with a GPS tracer? WHO WILL PAY FOR THIS? I will not spend my tax dollars to spy on the people that I elect.

Yeah the pentagon is a wonderful example, full of civil servants and Donald Rumsfeld?!? Please address your argument with feasible, real life, discussion.

our goverment already has big brother. the nsa, fbi, cia. but as it stands now we can only trust what they are doing. we have no check or balance against them. and with the path our country is going , big brother is only going to get bigger, more powerful. maybe we need an amendment to put this power , in the right hands. make it a true civilian part of our goverment. not a place the executive can instill the leadership. let the people run big brother.

do i want a camera on everystreet corner and in ever nook and cranny in america. do i want every spoken word, typed thought to be monitored. no, but its going to happen. we cant stop technology.

grim the problem with the people taking the power back , is the majority have been conditioned to think inside the box. they want their razor cells. they want their plasma tvs. in america we have been pushed to the point of idiocy. look where we ranked in education in the 50s. first in the world. i think we just slightly above mexico today , somewhere around 25th in the world in education. we are a country of stupid people and the masses wont care if you tell them what our goverment really has in store for them.

we must find a way to stop our goverment, the rape of our freedoms, the growth of big brother. but the masses are just asses and they could care less.

what can we do , it would take decades to give such people the information and knowledge to stand up together in one voice. by they it will be too late.

[edit on 14-8-2006 by elitegamer23]

[edit on 14-8-2006 by elitegamer23]

Originally posted by Nihilist Fiend
You keep speaking of this Big Brother controlled by the people think. What on earth are you trying to get at.

I think that would be the "Absurdum" in "Reductio ad Absurdum".

While I admit that it's not a tactic used (quite so convincingly) here very often, I believe the "point" here is that it seems like, for some people, it would take actually voting on (or the existance of) such a pannel of "watchers" for many to actually consider taking notice of what the government has been doing; instead of taking the attitude that "it hasn't happened to me yet so it must not be happening" in regards to our freedoms and liberties being infringed upon.

With the way things have been going lately, I'm actually kinda surprised that there were not a few people jumping at the idea.

I've seen quite a few "name one liberty you've lost" and "is the N.W.O. really that bad?" type threads lately.

[edit on 8/14/06 by redmage]

Again, all those things ARE civilian and controlled by ELECTED CIVILIANS.