Of All The Liberties You Have Lost, Because Of The 911 Conspiracy. Which One Do You Miss The Most?

You all forgetted the Free Speech Zone... the human chip... US government protected from war crimes.... Geneva conventions... right of information... more to come next 9/11

The problem also with War on Terror, is that it will last 100s of years because they fight an ideology, and it's impossible to destroy, if we want to destroy terrorism, we need to destroy what created it, the base. What created it? Our involvment in their countries, unjustified wars, bribing, those kind of things. Then people become extremists because they lost everything, their wife, their childrens and their jobs because the building was levelled.

Originally posted by Springer
Hmmm... Interesting perspective. One thing about the America I LOVE is we don't take anybody "messing with us" lightly, granted, I grew up in Texas and have a skewed view but still.

It smacks of sneaky skull duggery when the little things are slipped in and we all agree because "Anybody could be a terrorist" so we need to suspect/search and surviel everyone.

WHO says anyone could be a terrorist? WHO says the threat is real and the danger is close at hand? Those who are enacting the restrictions that's WHO.

I am not opposed to taking care of our security, I am not opposed to being smart and nailing those who would do us harm BEFORE they do it, that's common sense.

Yeah, well, I lived in Arkansas for a number of years and may also have a skewed view.

WHO says anyone could be a terrorist? Anyone with common sense after watching how it was done to us before. Less than a handful of people in this country even imagined that such a thing was possible. You want something to really blame for loss of freedoms? Try the political correctness BS that means the guy with the turban walks right through security (so as not to profile) while the grandma gets searched, even though only the turban wearing guys have been doing this stuff lately.

I have a problem with people that want government to take care of security, but they aren't willing to allow them to do just that. Exactly how does government be "smart and nail those who would do us harm BEFORE they do it" without active surveillance? What exactly is your proposal for being smart, and how would it in the end be different than what's being done now? Easy to say "they should do it different ...".

So, that's why I posted what I did. I'm tired of the people complaining about nothing of real substance and then offering nothing as an alternative. A lot of these same people want big government to take care of everything else in their lives, but not security? Doesn't make sense at all. And for the guy (who thinks he's) getting his phone tapped and house searched, I obey the laws and play by the rules and you know what? None of that happens to me. Maybe you might consider trying that approach.

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by Pyros
Insteresting. So far, not a single example of a lost liberty has been demonstrated. So much for big brother behind the scenes......

That's exactly what I was thinking. Just seeing a lot of "Whaaaaaa!". Reminds me of a previous thread on this same subject, where when I pressed a person to actually name a lost freedom all he could come up with was that people couldn't smoke in his bar any more (damn al-qaeda and Bush for that!).

Seems we have many, many "chicken littles" on this site these days.

PLENTY of examples have been made so far in this thread. Just because it hasn't happened to anyone here in particular doesn't mean it wont. You both are blind to the danger this represents. The door could swing both ways you know. In the future, there could be some nut job leftist government controlling the US and start using the patriot act to "round up" the conservatives that are a "threat" to national security. Will you be so smug then???????

Try the political correctness BS that means the guy with the turban walks right through security (so as not to profile) while the grandma gets searched, even though only the turban wearing guys have been doing this stuff lately.

You need to pay a little attention to the news, at least three of the people involved in the bottle bomb attack were ethnic Brits that had converted to Islam - IE racial profiling would have let them right through, because they were whites.

As for the rest of your posts, I have no complaints about most of the airline security stuff - IMHO most of it is necessary, unfortunately. Even though I can't use curbside checkin anymore, because apparently I share a name with some 80 year old IRA guy and my name is on a watch list - I have to prove my birthdate at the counter

And the TSA searched my mom's luggage, because the airline put the tags on the wrong bags apparently. At least they had the courtesy to leave a note.

Some of the other stuff is a little crazy though - arresting people for taking pictures of buildings? Does the NSA really need to hear my brother telling me dirty jokes?

It's interesting to note that this "bottle bomb" plot apparently wasn't uncovered by any "enhanced security" measure or NSA wiretap trolling or anything, but at least partially by a concerned (Muslim) citizen acting on their conscience. And the Brits dug deeper with good old-fashioned HUMINT and blew the thing wide open without one fatality.

I was going to respond with: So your idea is to just sit back and think about what to do while they continue to kill a few thousand of us here and there. OK as long as it's not you and/or you don't know the poor bastards.

But wait ...

Originally posted by LogansRun
In the future, there could be some nut job leftist government controlling the US and start using the patriot act to "round up" the conservatives that are a "threat" to national security. Will you be so smug then???????

Whoa! You could be onto something there. Hillary is about as left as you can get, but she acts like a hawk at the same time. Hold on while I rethink everything ...


[edit on 8/11/2006 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by centurion1211

Whoa! You could be onto something there. Hillary is about as left as you can get, but she acts like a hawk at the same time. Hold on while I rethink everything ...


[edit on 8/11/2006 by centurion1211]

For the record, I am a leftist but one who holds our most basic rights and liberties above ALL else. And especially for the record, I am NOT a Hillary fan.
Just because it hasn't happened to you or anyone you know doesnt mean it can't. If there are no laws in place to protect us from tyranny, then what has our country become?

I am not opposed to taking care of our security, I am not opposed to being smart and nailing those who would do us harm BEFORE they do it, that's common sense.

So what do you suggest being done?

my right to privacy you cannot go anywhere today without being watched by cameras their everywhere on the interstates at redlights at stores all stores at schools in the sky where are they not.

i dont want to go to an airport knowing there are men there with ak47s or m16s strapped to them

i dont want to take my shoes off or have my personalls searched

i dont want to be put on a terriost list just cause my name might match someone elses

i dont want to be forced to have a chip inplanted in me

Originally posted by Vushta

I am not opposed to taking care of our security, I am not opposed to being smart and nailing those who would do us harm BEFORE they do it, that's common sense.

So what do you suggest being done?

Look, these are strange times for everyone. It's never been like this before. No one has even most of the answers. But I believe it is better to try to deal with a problem - even if you sometimes make mistakes - than to just sit and think and wring your hands and hope it all just goes away.

The latter approach will never result in a solution.

[edit on 8/11/2006 by centurion1211]

I'm sure I'll be argued with, but oh well.

1. When there needs to be a special forum on this site, to make it where thoughts and ideas regarding conspiracies cannot be searched and looked at by everyone else
   
2. When I get searched like a criminal before boarding a plane
   
3. When I must question before reserving airline tickets "will I be on the No Fly List"?
   
4. When my personal information is stored for buying sinus medicine because of the Patriot Act
   
5. When I have to even question "what if my phone call is being listened in on"
   
6. When I get looked at for buying large amounts of fertilizer for my landscapes as if I'm a potential terrorist
   
7. When I can be picked up on terror suspicions and held indefinitely without a lawyer
   
8. When I can jokingly say "I'd love to raid Buckingham Palace" in chat on this site, when I only mean I love antiques, and people say I should be careful of saying that
   
9. When I am called "Anti American or Un Patriotic" for calling out something I believe is wrong in my country with that lovely little "you're with us or against us" attitude.
   

Then I believe there is a problem. A serious problem. When there is a select few that set the standards for what a terrorist is, who gets to be named one, and how they will be dealt with, I take serious issue. Privacy? Nah. And there are those here that would tell me that "I don't have the right to expect privacy in these areas." And with that one single comment, I can rest my case. Our rights are being twisted and turned, raping every loophole in existence to pass off some cheap version of a Constitution and Bill of Rights. It's wrong, the system is wrong, because the people have given up being the creators of the system which truly emulates what we see fit for our lives in lieu of a junk beauracratic system that allows people to drown in an American city while the president plays a guitar at his ranch.

Originally posted by niteboy82
I'm sure I'll be argued with, but oh well.


[

Oh well ...

You left out number 10 - where it's really mean and terrible when you get in trouble for yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater because it means you've lost your right to free speech.

Originally posted by centurion1211
Oh well ...

You left out number 10 - where it's really mean and terrible when you get in trouble for yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater because it means you've lost your right to free speech.

Hmm.. you did respond in detail. So This can be deleted now.

[edit on 8/11/06 by niteboy82]

Originally posted by niteboy82
I'm sure I'll be argued with, but oh well.

When there needs to be a special forum on this site, to make it where thoughts and ideas regarding conspiracies cannot be searched and looked at by everyone else


You mean there's a forum like the Cone of Silence from the TV show Get Smart?





When I get searched like a criminal before boarding a plane


Because criminals have boarded planes and killed people and we're not allowed to use profiling, so you get searched, too





When I must question before reserving airline tickets "will I be on the No Fly List"?


Why would you even think of asking this question? Unless ...





When my personal information is stored for buying sinus medicine because of the Patriot Act


No, because criminals are making meth out of it.





When I have to even question "what if my phone call is being listened in on"


Why would you even think of asking this question? Unless ...





When I get looked at for buying large amounts of fertilizer for my landscapes as if I'm a potential terrorist


Gee, possibly because some people did buy a lot of fertilizer and blow up a building and killed many people? So you blame the scrutiny on the government and not the evil people that thought of and carried out the act?





When I can be picked up on terror suspicions and held indefinitely without a lawyer


Why would you even think of asking this question? Unless ...





When I can jokingly say "I'd love to raid Buckingham Palace" in chat on this site, when I only mean I love antiques, and people say I should be careful of saying that


Why would you even think of saying this statement? Unless ...





When I am called "Anti American or Un Patriotic" for calling out something I believe is wrong in my country with that lovely little "you're with us or against us" attitude.


If all you do is complain and never offer an alternative solution?

[edit on 8/11/2006 by centurion1211]

I have lost nothing. Notta, I have been searched before getting on an airplane (I look the part) but it was not intrusive so to speak. I had my military ID and was on orders, that pretty much stopped them from anything more than going through my bags. So what, at least I knew they were doing their job.

I still have the right to bear arms, they won't get my firearms. I can travel at will and need no "papers" (my mentioned stuff above was on an international flight). I can surf into web pages like this one and no one is bashing down my door.

What have I gained? Well pedifiles are caught by watching their actions on the net. Bad guys like the ones just caught in England are caught by spying on them.

I have nothing to hide and live a good life. I don't feel anyone is out to get my way of life other than the terrorist that have already taken so many lives. They are real folks not some made up story by our government, there are thousands of terrorist out to get you, not your government.

Name one thing you as a person have lost because of the patriot act. I don't want to hear, "they tapped my phone but I can't prove it" "they entered my house but I can't prove it" etc. You have to prove it for me to believe it. They would be board if they wanted to tap my phone.

BTW, most home cordless phones can be heard by anyone in your neighborhood, all it takes is a trip to radio shack to buy a cheap scanner. Now you neighbors, they may be listening to your calls.

Originally posted by centurion1211

You mean there's a forum like the Cone of Silence from the TV show Get Smart?

How long have you been a member of this forum?!? RATS? Heard of it?

Because criminals have boarded planes and killed people and we're not allowed to use profiling, so you get searched, too

With that logic we should also put metal detectors everywhere because people rob stores, bus stations, little old ladies, some even think they have been mugged by aliens out there...

Why would you even think of asking this question? Unless ...

Have you not heard stories like this or this?

No, because criminals are making meth out of it.

So we should automatically assume that we're all criminals including yourself?

Why would you even think of asking this question? Unless ...

Because I have said horrible nasty things about the enlarged tinky winky that is running the White House and have heard clicks on the phone soon after. Also because it is nobody's business without a warrant to listen to anything I say on the phone. Trust me, it's boring, I hate talking on the phone too.

Gee, possibly because some people did buy a lot of fertilizer and blow up a building and killed many people? So you blame the scrutiny on the government and not the evil people that thought of and carried out the act?

Scrutiny? Um... it's my job, it's not terrorism, and I shouldn't have to be watched to make sure Jeanne De Bordeaux has her tulips blooming in the right season!

Why would you even think of asking this question? Unless ...

Say what? Because it is being put into legality by this administration that it can happen!

Why would you even think of saying this statement? Unless ...

Again, can you say something a little more detailed so the average human not blessed with your intelligence can make a sensible retort?

If all you do is complain and never offer an alternative solution?

Denying ignorance and helping people like you find some reading material to further educate themselves sounds like a great start to me.

[edit on 8/11/06 by niteboy82]

[edit on 8/11/06 by niteboy82]

nothing has been taken away from me after 9/11.. it has been the same as always. i do not feel my liberties have been broken. I do not care if you listen to my phone call because i have nothing to hide. I do not care if you watch me from satellites because i have nothing to hide. i give the government 100% duty to help protect our country.

Originally posted by Duhh
I hear this from people, on this board all the time. They state their civil liberties, are being trampled, or taken away. I would like to know. What has changed in your life since 911, to make you feel this way. If it is indeed connected to the 911 CT frame work.

I have not read this thread, but in answer to your question:

I miss the simple comfort of knowing there is accountability in government...

Without accountability, all else is in peril.

What has happened to that American ideal? ...And why have so many so freely abandoned the concept?


[edit on 11-8-2006 by loam]

Um, has anyone said eminent domain yet?

Originally posted by malakiem
Um, has anyone said eminent domain yet?

I don't think that is the result of 911 paranoia, but RIGHT you are... That is a significant loss indeed!

Originally posted by loam

Originally posted by malakiem
Um, has anyone said eminent domain yet?

I don't think that is the result of 911 paranoia, but RIGHT you are... That is a significant loss indeed!

And you saw that Bush - that's right, GWB - signed an executive order protecting people's property from eminent domain seizures of the type we're most conccerned with - to build shopping malls, etc?