what proof is there that 'god' exists?

Originally posted by marko1970
On small scale evolution, I totally see that & understand it.
There is PROOF beyond a doubt for this typem of evolution.

BUT.....

Concerning evolution of MAN from a primate, or primate type of anscestor, I just don't buy that one.

THAT is the point I'm trying to make.
I do apologize if I was unclear on that before.

It was perfectly clear. What isn't clear is why you think that what applies to other forms of life, doesn't apply to our own species.

Are you saying that evolution doesn't apply to large animal species, and therefore doesn't apply to us (since we're a large animal species)? Or are you saying that it applies to all forms of life except our own species?

(I will come back to the proof-of-God subject in the end, lest the thread be utterly hijacked. It does relate in some ways.)

Here's how the thinking actually works.

1. We do know from the fossil record that the species inhabiting the earth have changed over time. Most of the species that lived in the Jurassic period are now extinct. (Including the dinosaurs, most famously.)

Unless what we see is an ongoing creation, with divine intervention all along the way to plant new species in our midst (for which we have no direct evidence), the only thing that can account for the change in speciation over time is some kind of evolution: animals and plants giving birth to offspring that differ from themselves, ultimately to the point of becoming entirely new species.

That this process occurs in some fashion (not necessarily the fashion Darwin theorized) is the fact of evolution.

2. Darwin's theory, as modified over time (it is not quite the same as it was when he proposed it), is the generally-accepted account of how evolution occurs. This part is the theory of evolution. It is probably incomplete. General theories usually are. It may be wrong in some particulars. In some particulars, Darwin has already been shown to be wrong, although not in his overall conception.

What Darwin proposed is that species evolve through natural selection. What humans deliberately do when selectively breeding domestic plants and animals to produce desired characteristics, nature does by selectively breeding wild plants and animals to produce characteristics that are metaphorically (not literally) "desired," in the sense of helping the organisms to survive and breed. (Well, an intelligent-design version of evolution would say that the "desire" is literal not metaphorical, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.)

Human breeders do this by choosing which plant or animal individuals to cross with which others. Offspring arise from the chosen pairs and not from others, due to human intervention. This form of evolution is very, very fast compared to the natural kind, but the two otherwise work very much the same way. Nature also chooses which individuals will bear offspring, and so which characteristics will be passed on. Those characteristics that are passed on are those that:

a) Help an individual survive;
b) Help an individual to find a mate and procreate; and
c) Help descendants of the individual to survive.

Those that hurt any of those three goals tend to be bred out. And as material circumstances change, exactly what characteristics do these things change also. Over time, this mixing and remixing of genes can lead to new combinations that diverge so much from the original pattern that the descendants can no longer interbreed with the original type, and so a new species comes into existence.

Darwin did not know anything about genetics, because that science had not yet been invented. He knew nothing of mutations or genetic drift. Also, he conceived of evolution as a slow, steady process. The presence in the fossil record of evidence of mass extinctions, accompanied by relatively rapid evolution, and of long periods of relatively slow evolution, was unknown to him. In these ways, his theory has been modified since his time, and is no longer quite identical to what he devised. However, the basic concept that he outlined is still used.

As to human evolution specifically -- our species has a number of characteristics going for it, including high intelligence, manual dexterity, the ability to use language, social organization and mutual help and support, and care for the young. Some of these we have in common with many mammals, others are unique to ourselves. It is not hard to see how nature selected for the emergence of these characteristics, and the theory accounts well for how we came to be as a species.

Is this absolutely and categorically proven? Nothing in science ever is. A radically different theory could replace that of Darwin tomorrow, for all we know. But it is the best explanation we have at the present time, the one that best fits the evidence.

What makes a theory scientific is not that it is "proven true," but that it can be used to make predictions about what we will see if we look in a certain place or make certain experiments. This allows it, not to be proven true, but to be proven false. For example, we would predict, if humans evolved from other animals just like all other species, that the fossil record would show some species (living or extinct) closely resembling but not identical to our own, and a sequence of such species leading from older forbears to our own people. And we do find such species. A theory that we evolved from apes, would predict that we would find intermediate species in the fossil record (or alive) between humans and apes. This we do not find, and the man-like fossils that we do find differ from apes in important ways, and so the hypothesis that humans evolved from apes has been disproven.

Now to creationism or ID. (Which, by the way, are not quite the same thing.) If these ideas are to challenge evolution, saying something vague like "there is evidence for both" won't cut it. What they need to be, is theories that, like evolution, can make predictions and be disproven. Until this is done, creationism isn't a competing theory. In scientific terms, it's not a theory at all.

Now here's a better challenge, one more pertinent to the thread topic (to which we really should return). In what way (in your opinion) does evolution, if true, impact the idea of God's existence?

marko you are absolutely right. i have this argument with my boyfriend all the time. i tell him about the distance from the sun and the moon. the magnetic fields between jupiter and the sun, that basically keeps us exactly where we need to be. even if we were to change the average of our temperature by 1 degree f. we would freeze ( ice age) or we would burn up and have no living life.

there is something greater ( god ) that created us and gave us so many variables that allow us to exist. science is basically proving that there is a god everyday, by changing their theories and their beliefs everyday.

scientists and all the beleivers that think that there is nothing greater than us are just people that are too prideful to believe that there is anything greater and more powerful than them. pride will get you everytime.

think of all the variables that allow us to be here , and the very possibility that something with infinate mass and that is infanately small , just all of a sudden explodes and creates the whole universe, with our one little planet that is absolutely perfect and habitable for us to live here. ( seems a little far fetched to me )

also our telescopes are able to look millions of millions ( if not billions ) of miles in to space, and not one other place is like ours. we are unique, because our maker is unique and all powerful.

im out
-mindtrip02

[edit on 4-8-2006 by mindtrip02]

Originally posted by mindtrip02
i have this argument with my boyfriend all the time. i tell him about the distance from the sun and the moon. the magnetic fields between jupiter and the sun, that basically keeps us exactly where we need to be. even if we were to change the average of our temperature by 1 degree f. we would freeze ( ice age) or we would burn up and have no living life.

That is simply not true. The world has, in the past, been both cooler and warmer than it is today, by considerably more than 1 degree F, and although the changes this brought were widespread and dramatic, they did not extinguish life. We have HAD ice ages, but life continued through them. We have HAD periods of non-human-caused global warming considerably greater than the global warming being caused today by human activities, and life survived just fine. (It will survive human-caused global warming, too, although civilization may not.)

I'll grant you that the range of temperatures and other conditions necessary for life is fairly narrow, although not nearly as narrow as you are making it out to be, but you are ignoring a couple of things. One is the fact that there are a lot more lifeless planets out there than ones with life on them. The other is the fact that, only on a planet with life on it, could living things make the observations you are making and marvel at them. Let's say that the chances are one in ten billion (just to grab a big number out of a hat -- nobody knows what the odds really are) that a given planet could sustain life. If ten billion planets exist, the odds are that only one of them will be life-sustaining. People on that one planet may think it extraordinary that exactly the right conditions persist on their little world to produce life, against the odds. But no, it's NOT against the odds, it's exactly in accord with the odds, and it happens to be their planet, not because of any divine favor, but because on all the other planets that AREN'T life-sustaining, they had zero chance to be born and so could not have commented on it.

The other thing you're ignoring is the role of life itself in maintaining the conditions that sustain life. Please check out the link below to read up on the Gaia hypothesis which deals with this phenomenon.

en.wikipedia.org...

science is basically proving that there is a god everyday, by changing their theories and their beliefs everyday.

No, they are only proving that one of the necessary assumptions of science -- that we will never know everything, and so all theories must be held tentatively and constantly modified as new data are gathered -- is probably true. Changing theories is exactly how science is SUPPOSED to work. If that didn't happen, it would mean scientists were probably doing something wrong.

scientists and all the beleivers that think that there is nothing greater than us

Where in the world are you getting this? Do you really think that there is a conflict between science and the existence of God? Nonsense. Between science and the literal infalibility of the Bible, yes -- that conflict exists, because the Bible states many things that, if interpreted literally, are scientific nonsense. But the Bible may be interpreted non-literally without conflicting with science, or the Bible may not be infallible no matter how it's interpreted and God still exist.

also our telescopes are able to look millions of millions ( if not billions ) of miles in to space, and not one other place is like ours. we are unique, because our maker is unique and all powerful.

We can look a long way into space all right, but the further we look, the bigger something has to be before we can see it. We can just barely demonstrate nowadays that planets do orbit other stars (although we always knew they probably did), and we can't examine any of them in detail. Most likely we will have to send robot spacecraft out there in order to do that.

When we do, and when the first non-terrestrial biosphere is reported, you may feel pretty silly about the above, if you're still among the living then.

Anyway -- I am quite comfortable with all of science, including evolution theory, AND with the felt presence of the Holy that convinces me that indeed there is a God/dess -- although I'm also sure that most believers don't have Clue One about what He/She/It really is. So the dichotomy you're drawing doesn't have to be there.

yes we did have an ice age before and people did survive. but... it didnt last forever. it was maybe the way that the earth was titled on its axis at the time ( im not sure). but we werent closer or further away from the sun. so therefore it would make it impossible for life to exist if was that way forever.
science does change , but it seems that they would find out something for sure, instead of having all these theories.

thats just my point of view on things.

im out
-mindtrip02

Originally posted by mindtrip02
science does change , but it seems that they would find out something for sure, instead of having all these theories.

No, that's not possible. And the reason it's not, is that we can never know all the data that relate to a particular question. So all we can do at any time, is to derive a model that works based on the data we have. We always know that it could be obsolete down the road, just as Newton's physics was replaced by a combination of Einstein's relativity and quantum mechanics. And yet, some pretty impressive technologies were developed based on Newton's physics, and more have been developed based on relativity and quantum mechanics. So although Newton was wrong, he was still close enough to right to allow for the development of those technologies.

Also, scientific method only works on certain kinds of questions. You can't apply scientific method to questions of morality, for example. It can't answer questions of value, only questions of fact about processes observed in the objective world.

In my opinion, the whole idea of a conflict between science and faith arises because people are thinking of God as something concrete, out there in the objective world. Like a big white guy with a long beard in the sky, maybe. They have this Medieval image of God hovering over the world, fiddling with this and that. And so some believers get upset when science doesn't find God where they think He ought to be, and some atheists get all huffy about how there isn't any proof that God exists. Of course there isn't! The God they're thinking of DOESN'T exist. But that doesn't mean there's no reality underlying the experience of faith.

God is found deep in your heart, not out there in the world. And since the only thing science can study is what's out there in the world, we can't expect it to find God, because God isn't out there.

He's in here.

Originally posted by marko1970

Why have humans remained virtually the same, for the past several hundred thousand to however many million years, since "becoming" human?

Your kidding right? I mean I have seen maybe one or two Neanderthals around lately and I think Geico ran into a couple other cavemen... but to suggest we haven't changed for 100 thousand years is ludicrous.

Evolution does have a "ceiling" When a species is succeccful for its environment it stops evolving save for minor changes... look at the dinosaurs they ruled the earth for 400 millon years gave or take... Man isn't even in the ballpark yet.... and if it wasn't for that asterid they would still be here... and we would be lunch!

The only thing that sparks a major evolutionary change is a major change in climate, or some other force like more cosmic rays from space.

Originally posted by mindtrip02
marko you are absolutely right. i have this argument with my boyfriend all the time. i tell him about the distance from the sun and the moon. the magnetic fields between jupiter and the sun, that basically keeps us exactly where we need to be.

.

This is interesting! Just how exactly does the magnetic field between Jupiter and the Sun and the distance from the Sun or Moom have anything to do with evolution, or religion for that matter??

even if we were to change the average of our temperature by 1 degree f. we would freeze ( ice age) or we would burn up and have no living life.

Do you have documentation for this? I would really like to see that.

scientists and all the beleivers that think that there is nothing greater than us are just people that are too prideful to believe that there is anything greater and more powerful than them. pride will get you everytime.

How marvelously arogant of you! You want everyone to accept your "God" without question, but those that disagree and chose another path are prideful?

think of all the variables that allow us to be here , and the very possibility that something with infinate mass and that is infanately small , just all of a sudden explodes and creates the whole universe, with our one little planet that is absolutely perfect and habitable for us to live here. ( seems a little far fetched to me )

Seems equally far fetched to me that there is some white guy with a gray beard sitting up there somewhere that just waves his hand and says "Behold We have Created Life"

Both say the same thing,,, everything from nothing in a short time frame, only God needed six days

also our telescopes are able to look millions of millions ( if not billions ) of miles in to space, and not one other place is like ours. we are unique, because our maker is unique and all powerful.

First of all our telescopes are not looking into space. They are looking into the past. The light from billions of light years [thats a LOT of miles... do the math] away left there billions of years ago, so what we are seeing is what USED TO BE out there.

The reason we can not see any other planets like earth is because they are TOO SMALL for us to see and do not give off any of there own light...

If you are going to use science as an argument, it would be prudent to use correct facts so your credibility doesn't suffer

Did it ever occur to any of you that God simply created the world and set it in motion? Just like the weather and earthquakes are a NATURAL law of the planet so is evolution. But you can believe in God and Evolution without conflict... as soon as your EGO gives up the notion that God has nothing better to do in the Universe that watch over petty little lemmings that misbehave and worry about every little detail of their miserable lives...

God helps those that help themselves... That MEANS what it says. You were given a Brain whether by God or by Evolution, doesn't matter. Use it to learn about the universe and to better yourself. When you die we can sort out who is right...

This one is for everyone..

One last question... for the God section....

If as you say God is all powerful and omnipotent, then in truth there is nothing He cannot do, correct?

Well then... can He create a Rock bigger than He can Lift?

Think about it before answering.

I'll be back to collect the papers in a week

Originally posted by zorgon
Did it ever occur to any of you that God simply created the world and set it in motion? Just like the weather and earthquakes are a NATURAL law of the planet so is evolution. But you can believe in God and Evolution without conflict... as soon as your EGO gives up the notion that God has nothing better to do in the Universe that watch over petty little lemmings that misbehave and worry about every little detail of their miserable lives...

Here is another example of the same mistake: the objectification of God, the idea that God, should there be such a critter, must be out there as part of the objective world, something we ought to be able to observe.

It's true that a God who created the world in the simplistic sense you mean above would not likely care about some tiny part of His/Her/Its creation. It is NOT true, however, that the God who really does exist -- and who is found, not out there, but deep inside yourself -- does care. But calling the real God the "creator" of the universe is, at best, a metaphor. It certainly isn't literally true, in any sense the human mind can encompass or imagine.

If as you say God is all powerful and omnipotent, then in truth there is nothing He cannot do, correct?

Well then... can He create a Rock bigger than He can Lift?

Old, old argument. Setting aside that, once again, terms like "omnipotent" are at best metaphors, C.S. Lewis had a pretty good answer to it.

His Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to Him, but not nonsense. This is no limit to His power. If you choose to say 'God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it,' you have not succeeded in saying anything about God: meaningless combinations of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prefix to them the two other words 'God can.'... It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of His creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; not because His power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God.

Of course, I have a problem with trying to define God in the first place, but since both your argument and his response are symptoms of the same ailment, and so belong together, I'll let him answer you and be satisfied.

[edit on 4-8-2006 by Two Steps Forward]

You don't have to believe in this but I'm not lying I am 100 % honest. Every prayer that I prayed to God has become true to me. when I pray hrd enough and sometimes that what god does for me is unexplainable. My life is 100% changed to better once I started to be more "active" as a Christian.

And heres one question: What made the universe? No I don't wanna hear u say it's big bang. Coz if u say so I have another question. What caused big bang? The answer is simple: God.

Hope this helps.

its nice to see point grabbing threads are still around

Its not up to me or others to prove God existence to you, you don't have faith or believe in God? fine, i have no problem. But i do have a problem when non-believers try and force me to prove that God exists.

MY STORY

*Please don't be offended by my opinions in the following document, it's not an attack towards anyone, but rather the "Church" system we have created.


I came from a violent home, (drugs, alcohol, gun shots, being chased with knives, people thrown thru picture pane windows), in fact I was born three months early because my father kicked my mother in the stomach, and I weighed two pounds nine ounces.

As early as 7yrs old I was out on the streets till 3-4am, I was put in three orphanages... once my father snuck into our house, he put a loaded pistol in my hand and told me too shoot my sisters and my mother, it was crazy. Thru all of this, (which I wouldn't change), I came out a fairly normal kid, I was involved in sports and didn't do drugs, or drink. I thought I was a survivor, wanting only too make it thru another day.

At age 16 (in 1974) I started too sense a need in my life, an emptiness that I couldn't explain. I knew I had too find God/Jesus, but who was HE? I had no idea where too find HIM, so I went to the local library to find books concerning world religions, God, and the occult. At the library I met an ex hippie (Gary Osborn) he saw my books and decided too share the message with me. Gary invited me to pray in the back of his V.W. so I did, I remember saying "God forgive me for my sins, and whatever you have for me I want it all".

Well at first nothing happened I expected, lightening or something. Gary said, "Just go home and praise God" I said, "What's that, mean" Gary said, "Just thank him" So I did just that.

The remaining is sacred to me, before I asked Jesus into my heart, I never heard voices, I never drank, and I never did drugs, but one week after meeting Jesus while in the middle of my last class (during high school) A voice, just as clear, as someone standing next too you, spoke, and as the voice spoke it said to me, "rod tell them about Jesus" I was surprised, but unafraid, I put my hand over my mouth, since I didn't want anyone too think I was talking too myself, I said (to whoever spoke too me) "I don't know what to say" the voice said "don't be afraid, I'll give you the words to say" To this day I don't remember my words, but I spoke too those kids about Jesus and salvation, their mouths just dropped open and then, class was over, I walked out of that room, feeling like I had never felt before.

The next day was Saturday; I slept in the living room on an old couch. When I woke it was early and I decided too turn on the TV, to watch my favorite cartoon, the roadrunner.

As I sat there watching the TV, I got up and looked outside, everything was so beautiful, (I never appreciated nature, I just wanted too make it thru another day). BUT now it was so pretty, I sat back down on the couch, and as I did I was somewhere else.

I was sitting at a long rough hewn table, to my right was God, the father, I couldn't see him, to my left was Satan, him I could see (he looked like a man only very big) then in front of me was Jesus, three bowls appear, filled with what looked like porridge. Now the father spoke and said Satan dismiss yourself, Satan stood and screamed, then vanished. Three bites were taken out of the bowl. Then all at once I was watching myself from a distance, walking with Jesus up a grassy pathway. Jesus was speaking to me but from a distance I couldn't hear him, I could see myself shaking my head (like I understand) then thru my eyes I saw the house where I had been sleeping.

I didn't know what had happened; I'd never experienced anything like that, but I knew two things, I had too find a pastor to talk too, and I KNEW GOD loved me and wanted something from me...my total surrender, my life totally under his control, every second, moment by moment, and I was consumed with this one desire, to live too PLEASE HIM. Let me give you an example: When a friend from school would come over and say, "Hey rod." "Let’s go to a show" I'd say, "hold on." Then Id go in the bathroom and pray, "Lord should I go?" Sometimes the Lord would say "go", sometimes "no" At times He was silent, when this happened I would look inside, to my heart, (Spirit), (see Colossians 3:15) if I had peace I would go, If not, Id stay home.

As I practiced this new desire, (surrender), I noticed the voice of the Lord became more frequent and clearer, (John 10:27). It always had to agree with scripture. The word of the Lord will always agree with the true meaning and / or the true interpretation of scripture).

I new I needed to get a bible, I went to a bookstore and I got the largest family bible Id ever seen, with pictures and everything. I was so happy. That night the voice of the lord said, "Read Matthew 5." I had to look in the contents; I didn't know where Matthew was. When I found it and started too read, the words became a ("Word of the Lord to me") they just jumped off the page, they seemed to come alive, and they filled me, with hope, love and peace. Now I knew God loved me, and my sins were gone, I was forgiven...

As time passed I grew, sometimes Id walk into a busy office or building (like a D.O.L) and the Lord would say go sit by that guy, I would strike up a conversation, then say "you don't know me but I'm a Christian and God is going too share with me about your life" I don't mean simple things like "you have the flu" or "Headaches", but deep, personal things that others couldn't know or even guess. People would usually start to cry and ask "how did you know?” I'd say "I didn't but God knew".

One of the best lessons from the Lord concerning trusting Him happened like this; I was traveling from Philly to Atlantic city, I got on the road, and started to hitch a ride, (it wasn't illegal at that time) within one hour and twenty minuets I was in Atlantic city (which was a one hour drive!) I got 4 different rides, as I stepped into each vehicle I boldly proclaimed "Hi I'm a child of the King, and God's going to bless you for picking me up!" God gave me very personal details about each of those people and all but one came to Christ.

When I got to Atlantic City, God said "Rod, when you get to the prayer meeting tonight I want you to give all your money, to Johnnie Diaz". I said "Lord that’s all I've got?" (About 300.00) God replied; "you take care of your brothers and sisters in the Lord and I'll take care of you." So upon arriving in Atlantic City, I secretly gave all my money to Johnnie, (this was to cover something for Johnnie that was very personal, so I know he didn't share this with anyone).

That night I asked myself "how am I going to get back to work, tomorrow? I didn't have a penny, not even enough for bus fare, and in my spirit I knew I wasn't to hitch hike, but instead the Lord wanted me on the bus. After sleeping that night and leaving the brothers house the next day, (where the meeting had been held), I started walking to the bus station. As I got closer and closer, I was imagining, "is the drivers going to just “know” he’s suppose to let me ride for free?" But as I approached the depot, a brother named "Chicky" came out of his house and said "rod I think the Lord wants me to give this to you." It was exactly what I needed for bus fare!

Now let me share some thoughts/opinions:

1).How do you describe this LIFE? As a Christian it's hard to do. As I recall moments in my own life, I think of times of stillness, in the midst of activity or in the quiet of night. The presence of His Spirit was there, sometimes speaking other times He was silent, yet the undeniable presence of His Spirit was so real. You couldn't describe it too anyone else, sometimes he was so near, almost physical, at other times He was, just felt, deep in your heart.

I could at times think, and He would answer. Sometimes the answer was spoken, and at other times it was a still small voice in my heart.

Sometimes I would see a person, and while looking at them, I knew about them.

I recall the passion to tell others about him at any given moment, looking for such an occasion never caring where I was, or who was near by.

Constantly His Love moved over me in waves and yet it abode, never departing. I would wake up in the middle of the night and He was there, like a mother hen.

I remember the love for others that was not my own. I remember feeling, and being, separate from the world yet still in its midst.

I recall not worrying about the kind of car I drove, or the condition of my clothes, knowing that He was fully aware of all these things.

I recall being invited out for dinner with brothers, and thinking (silently between myself and God), "Lord I don't have any money, but I'm hungry" and then someone would say "hey rod I'll buy ok?" Do you have days like this?

Do you remember days like this from your past? I believe this is something no one can take from us. This is why WE MUST EXPERIENCE GOD! Experiencing God is more important than the scriptures! You see if you experience HIM then, Bible revelation can be added to you. But if you don't experience HIM first then Bible knowledge is just a compilation of facts, they are true, but they don't have any place of reference, without HIM.

2).Most of my life, at least as far back as I can remember I've had a desire and love for God/Jesus. As I've grown older, I've seen many things in "Christendom", I've seen communes (come and go in failure). I've seen myself and other brothers walk in their own ways (you might call it backsliding), I've been hurt by supposed brothers in Christ, I've seen TV preachers act cocky, and ridiculous, I've seen people chase tithes and money, I've seen people in big churches (faithful tithers) go without help while in need, I've seen people chase their own kingdom and building programs. I've seen people pretend to prophecy, knowing they were not HEARING from HIM, (and in failure, excuse themselves by saying they were practicing), I've seen names in lights (but not Jesus name). I've seen people destroyed by the sheparding movement. I've seen men of god after devoting their lives to "the ministry" destroyed after a single mistake, instead of forgiven. On and on I could go... So does any of the above remind you of the book of acts or the first group of believers?

This is why I believe we must have and will have change. God is not interested in a "body" with spot or wrinkle. As I searched different churches, communities, and internet sites, I've come across a hand full of people that have the essence/smell of life and others who are just religious (relating to God only in their learning and mind), yet I yearn for true brethren and their fellowship, realizing that only God can cause these people to be gathered together and revealed to one another, and have them be in accord with one mind. Jesus may give the gift of eternal life to some, that's His prerogative, but to say all people have the same "experience/fellowship/love relationship" with Jesus or each other is not correct. We see the difference in people (John, Peter, Paul) and we see the same differences thru-out time, we see times of revival (1900's, 1940's, 1970's) and in each of these times we see tare and wheat together. We see a time of purity and passion then a colder period, where men's hearts seem to grow cold, and God becomes a forgotten memory.

In contrast we never see this in churches, they are always attended by praying people, people arguing scriptures and doctrine, yet hardly ever displaying life as we see in the same revival periods. Yes I believe mercy, calls for a move of God again.

3).One more reason, I believe we need change is because the gospel needs to be preached. We believe the gospel has been preached, from the generosity of America, but I think this is only true in very narrow windows of time (revival 1900's, 1940's, 1970's etc) and only by certain persons (who knew HIM). Then of course there is the occasional believer who is submitted to the (breathings) of the Spirit, this believer shares out of the reservoir of undeniable life (the fellowship between this believer and the Spirit). This bears fruit since it's not just a message of words but is accompanied by this fellowship and life. The preaching of the gospel by religious folks just doesn't work! How could it, they are not ambassadors of the very Spirit, since they refuse to give up their life thru that act of ultimate (life giving) which is the "surrender of self". The first century church in the New Testament turned the word upside down in a short time NOT because of their words alone but because of the LIFE residing IN them. This was a spirit thing...NOT a mental thing, it wasn't an agreement with certain doctrines or creeds, it wasn't from arguing the scriptures, it wasn't from forming a new church or denomination, they had and were living LIFE like Jesus 24/7 every moment of each day, a life of submission, pleasing the father, a life defined by others as "seeing they had been with Jesus". Being in his presence and service, is the key, Paul called this being a love slave, a life like Paul's multiplied thousands of times over will "again" cause the world to SEE and HEAR the TRUE gospel.

4). In the 1860's 1900's 1940's 1960's we saw the beginning of several moves of God upon people who were desperate to know HIM. They found the one they were seeking for.

Then shortly after in each time period, (even in the new testament) we see charlatans, hirelings move in among the sheep of God, these men who really don't know the master teach doctrines not from revelation via an intimate relationship. But from the minds of others who were also like themselves, who teach only from the tree of knowledge: From the mind of one man to the mind of another, thereby polluting the little sheep and convincing others, because the so-called doctrines of men are believed by the masses also.

This is such a subtle thing that it can inhibit your walk, because you're not discipled but instead taught by men who have never had an intimate walk with God. So as believers we must know Him and find revelation that agrees with the scriptures, and or that changes our understanding of the scriptures.

5). I often wonder how these spiritual things work...It's hard to find answers sometimes since we are mortal. And often IF you are like me, its hard to keep on believing that God can find a good reason to go on loving me...

But as I look back...I see of course some differences, the late 60's thru the mid 70's were a move of god, especially for the young...We always see (under an anointing) god doing unusual graceful things in the lives of people...Then it tapers off...Probably so as not too be common and taken for granted by us.

So where does an experience in God begin? I have to believe (and remember I'm limited by my mortality and limited knowledge so I could be wrong), it starts with God putting a hunger in your heart....Now if that hunger exists, and it sounds as though it does, for you sound like a seeker...then

I would approach God in a simple fashion, (for me it was doing the only thing I knew to do, I went to the Library to research books about religion and god). then shortly after I prayed with Gary (see testimony) I just knew in my heart that god wanted my whole life, every thought belonged to him, SO I just started with my thoughts, if I had a thought that came into my mind and it said "give that person a bible" or "tell that person that you are a Christian and that you will be praying for them" then I would obey....

One day I told a Christian brother about this (thought stuff) and how I judged my thoughts by the little knowledge I had of the bible, and if my thoughts were agreeable (good things vs. evil) then I would obey... This brother told me too keep on obeying those thoughts as long as they agreed with scripture, and as I did then the thoughts would go from just thoughts, too the voice of the Lord, (my sheep know my voice) (sheep follow-they are surrendered to their master), well just as this brother said, it did indeed happen that way for me...So seek HIM and if you can do today, what I can't seem to do (surrender with all your heart)...I'm sure you will meet HIM, maybe in a different experience, but never the less I'm sure His goal will be the same...To possess your whole heart.

6). A Christian historian tells a true story about a peasant in the 1600's living under the rule of the Catholic Church. The peasant is working the field and a cardinal and his procession go by, as they approach the cardinal speaks to the peasant, about a new edict from Rome. The cardinal quotes a verse of scripture; the peasant replies that the cardinal quoted the verse incorrectly. The cardinal says to the peasant "How would you know, being you are unlearned and illiterate?" The peasant replies: "because the spirit IN ME said you quoted it wrong"!

How true this is, if we only have the book and don't hear that still small voice on the inside, from the throne of our heart the center of HIS kingdom! Then I fear we miss the most important piece of intimacy, yet HIS Word and HIS scriptures work together, one a current guide for us THE NOW and the other, which can still speak but was spoken to another hundreds of years ago, serves as a foundation. But We live by breath, and the words that proceed from the mouth of God, "My sheep know my voice" "for those who are sons of God are led of the spirit of God".

Originally posted by Jedi 007

And heres one question: What made the universe? No I don't wanna hear u say it's big bang. Coz if u say so I have another question. What caused big bang? The answer is simple: God.

Hope this helps.

Whoops someone said it. Whenever somesays the universe was created by the big bang someone will always say that god craeted the big bang as it doesnt make sense otherwise. But my question is, then what created god going by this logic.

Oh and mindtrip02 stop arguing with your boyfriend he's right, youll only end up splitting up. The magnetic attraction between Juptier and the moon has nothing to do with erath save for possible the amount of meteors they deflect and all the moon does is block a few more asteroids and creates tides whihc really helps no-one.

Originally posted by Shenroon

Originally posted by Jedi 007

And heres one question: What made the universe? No I don't wanna hear u say it's big bang. Coz if u say so I have another question. What caused big bang? The answer is simple: God.

Hope this helps.

Whoops someone said it. Whenever somesays the universe was created by the big bang someone will always say that god craeted the big bang as it doesnt make sense otherwise. But my question is, then what created god going by this logic.

Oh and mindtrip02 stop arguing with your boyfriend he's right, youll only end up splitting up. The magnetic attraction between Juptier and the moon has nothing to do with erath save for possible the amount of meteors they deflect and all the moon does is block a few more asteroids and creates tides whihc really helps no-one.

exactly . they deflect the things in space that can cause us harm. that is one of the main reasons we are not plummeted by commets, astroids and other debree that is floating around us. answer me this.... is there another place that has that.. ( meaning something , more than just the atmosphere) that protects it the way that the magnetic feilds protect us.

and i really dont think that our arguments that we have ( if you noticed the first time i wrote this i did put that we argue playfully) will split us up. we are getting married next month actually. i think that one of the reasons that we are together , is for me to teach him about god.
im not a jesus freak or anything, its not like hes bad for the way he thinks, but people need to be taught about religion, it gives people a foundation.


oh and for any human being to try to understand where god came from would be impossible. he was always here. we cant comprehend , even if it was explained to us. people have to assume that god came from somewhere. he is infinite.


im out
-mindtrip02

[edit on 14-8-2006 by mindtrip02]

Originally posted by mindtrip02

Originally posted by Shenroon

Originally posted by Jedi 007

And heres one question: What made the universe? No I don't wanna hear u say it's big bang. Coz if u say so I have another question. What caused big bang? The answer is simple: God.

Hope this helps.

Whoops someone said it. Whenever somesays the universe was created by the big bang someone will always say that god craeted the big bang as it doesnt make sense otherwise. But my question is, then what created god going by this logic.

Oh and mindtrip02 stop arguing with your boyfriend he's right, youll only end up splitting up. The magnetic attraction between Juptier and the moon has nothing to do with erath save for possible the amount of meteors they deflect and all the moon does is block a few more asteroids and creates tides whihc really helps no-one.

exactly . they deflect the things in space that can cause us harm. that is one of the main reasons we are not plummeted by commets, astroids and other debree that is floating around us. answer me this.... is there another place that has that.. ( meaning something , more than just the atmosphere) that protects it the way that the magnetic feilds protect us.

and i really dont think that our arguments that we have ( if you noticed the first time i wrote this i did put that we argue playfully) will split us up. we are getting married next month actually. i think that one of the reasons that we are together , is for me to teach him about god.
im not a jesus freak or anything, its not like hes bad for the way he thinks, but people need to be taught about religion, it gives people a foundation.


oh and for any human being to try to understand where god came from would be impossible. he was always here. we cant comprehend , even if it was explained to us. people have to assume that god came from somewhere. he is infinite.


im out
-mindtrip02

[edit on 14-8-2006 by mindtrip02]

I didnt mean youd end up splitting up seriously just a joke. Also it isnt magnetic fields that protect us its gravitational fields adn its nothing to do with the attraction between the sun and jupiter maybe jupiter and an asteroid or the sun and an asteroid but no each other.
And how can we find another place that has the same protection as us at the moment the most we cn see of other planets is a tiny blip of light on a telescope when we live in such a massive universe.
Lastly the sun moon and jupiter dont always stop everything remember the dinosaurs or how about one f hte ohter hundred craters that have been found which even if the trio did stop everything is far from proof of a higher power.

People are s arrogant in their beliefs. One would figure that after 6,000+ years of human civilization, that we as a species would grow. Yet we've done the opposite. We've stayed the same, and at one point in time, took a few steps BACKWARDS. We've grown technologically, but alas.. only to use that as a tool to furthur our own arrogant agendas.

In the case of the christians. There is not such thing as 'christiantiy'. The true name is hipochristianity. A system of belief filled to the brim, full of hypocrits. Not a single one of them follow the laws of their god, and yet all will sit there and violently defend that they do. Morals ... forget morals, they don't even NEED morals. They can live a life of "sin" so long as they repent at the last moment. And yet we that don't believe in imaginative dieties are the immoral ones. Look at the majority of convicts in the US prisons. Religous people.

Before I get sidetracked...

I noticed a couple of posters and their 'proofs' and 'experiences' with their hypocritical diety of choice. Good for you guy's. But let's step outside our arrogant egotistical minds for a second and take a look at the rest of the world. There ARE other religions out there with followers who claim the exact same proofs and experiences as you do with your god. Doesn't that seem funny to you? Doesn't that make you stop and think that there's something wrong here? No of course not...

Your evil diety of choice created all those other religions and 'proofs' for them to take people away from your on true religion. Let's look at those other religions again. FFS people, they claim the SAME thing, have the SAME message, have the SAME proofs. Yet, the only thing you all lack is proof of your dieties of choice.

The one religion I can't stand the most is hipochristianity. The worlds most violent religion and most morally destructive. Anyone up for some good old biblical gay bashing? effing hypocrits.

Mindtrip, Marko, and Jedi007 are exactly why I love to throw out the FLying spaghetti monster
www.venganza.org...
Every time someone says God, just replace it with Flying Spaghetti Monster. Of course it sounds rediculous when you say its TFSM, but saying GOD makes it logical and reasonable. Honestly, if God is as omnicient and omnipotent as everyone says he is, then we would be alive no matter where in the universe "he" put us.

Wow Prot0n, I sense much anger in you....and might I say, I can understand completely where you are coming from...

Almost all religious followers (regardless of what religion it is) now-a-days are giving their own religions bad names by their actions....From Islam to Christianity...

What amazes me, is that both mentioned have the same principles....Love each other....

Too many get caught up by our own agendas to see the bigger picture that religion was intended for...advancement of the human race...the need to belong and the desire to live a prosperous life.....

I, personally, believe that yes, there was a creator or a creating "force" that has been referenced previously....I call he/she/it God....the only thing that makes me and a few others different than a VAST majority of religous people is that I don't try to force my belief on anyone....Life is about gaining knowledge and wisdom, and loving your fellow beings..not bickering about who's God is better....

I have said before, that George Lucas is a genius.....What he wrote about the "Force" is a very good description of how things could be in reality:

The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.

Concentrate. Feel the Force flow. Not outside or inside, but part of all it is. Through the Force, things you will see. Reaches across time and space it does. Other places. The future... the past. Old friends long gone. Always in motion is the future.

In balance is the Force. The Dark and the Light. With out one, there is no other. The Dark Side, tempting it is. Quick, easy at first, but a trap is the Dark Side. Corrupting, evil. Once you start down the Dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. For the Light Side, patience you need. Control. Peace and harmony it is.

Substitute the words MAN for Jedi, and GOD for The Force.....you basically get the fundamentals of religion....

I wish people could open their minds instead of putting up walls.....

PS: Two Steps Forward, I voted you Way Above..

[edit on 15-8-2006 by JSquared]

[edit on 15-8-2006 by JSquared]

God is a Brane. It's the most logical idea that I've come up with, and more realistic than any Judeo-Christian deity.

Unfortunately, we have yet to prove Branes to exist