The Symphony of Conspiracies and Why It's Important to be "Anti-American" (Op/Ed)

Hate to tell you this josbecky but the conservative movement doesn't need anybody to paint it with a negative light, it is doing an excellent job all by itself...we are just having a grand old time laughing and pointing at the naked emperor, thats all.

In all due respect, do you seriously think people are going to think your intelligent because your party believes in cutting major funds to education? Education is the most important part of a culture, without it, the smarter country/group will come in and fool you out of your land.

Originally posted by jsobecky
Because one of the most influential members has repeatedly authored anti-administration topics. That is his right, of course, but what happens is that it paints conservatives in a negative light. To what purpose? To make this site a mini "Daily Kos" forum? I would expect more balance from one in his position.

Again (and again and again and again and again and again...), I was seriously critical of the Clinton administration when I helped run the "Political Conspiracies & Coverups" forum on CompuServe. If anyone here recalls the "SkeptiGuy" from those days... you'll know I was.

As I've tried to explain (several times), being a "critical thinking conspiracy aficionado" means I'm hard-wired to doubt whatever spew comes from the general direction of a politicians mouth. Why is it hard to understand this?

The problem is, threads like this one, and "I have a Dream" threads, attempt to label conservatives and Republicans as the real anti-Americans. And that is just plain wrong, no matter how you spin it.

Again (and again and again and again and again and again...), I think I've developed a strong enough record of commentary here that makes it very clear I feel both "liberal" and "conservative" are full of bullocks and the systematic effort to use the system to divide the public and set them against each other is the single most significant problem (and conspiracy) of our era.

Originally posted by jsobecky
Sorry, SO, but I'm not seeing that. What I am seeing here, though, are replies such as this:

from FallenFromTheTree
As far as I'm concerned, anyone supporting the Bush administration is a traitor to their own country.

Do you have any comment on that?

Given this evidence, these principles, and the fact that the Bush administration has shat on the constitution I'd say that statement is pretty valid.

from FallenFromTheTree
As far as I'm concerned, anyone supporting the Bush administration is a traitor to their own country.

Oh wait! You're the anti-thesis of AVOT...you're like AAVOT...which is just as close-minded. Anti-Hoo-Ha, Anti-A-Rour-Har - let's all go down together.



[edit on 6-14-2006 by Valhall]

The Writing On The Wall

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
Again (and again and again and again and again and again...), I think I've developed a strong enough record of commentary here that makes it very clear I feel both "liberal" and "conservative" are full of bullocks and the systematic effort to use the system to divide the public and set them against each other is the single most significant problem (and conspiracy) of our era.

Every post in this thread, the majority of posts addressing this subject on ATS/BTS/PTS and virtually every news story pushed out on the wires corroborates and validates the point you are making.

The evidence is right here in the discussion itself, hidden in plain sight.

To the extent we ignore how we are controlled, we surrender to it.

Question everything.

Originally posted by Majic
Question everything.

Originally posted by Valhall
****************************
AVOT, in its "Statement of Principles" compares the current "War on Terrorism" proclaimed by the Bush II administration as paramount in importance as the Cold War was, and in referencing the current enemy called "terrorism" it states:

America is confronted with an enemy no less dangerous and no less determined than the twin menaces of fascism and communism we faced in the 20th century. And as we were victorious over them, so we must prevail in this, the first war of the 21st century. AVOT will, as its first task, remind citizens of the paramount importance of this effort.(15)

Do you disagree with his assessment? Do you think that terrorism is not a threat to our lives?

Included in these principles is a statement that has been interpreted by some to insinuate a bit of warning against those who would speak in dissent of the War on Terrorism and the principles and goals of AVOT:

The radical Islamists who attacked us did so because of our democratic ideals, our belief in, and practice of, liberty and equality. AVOT will take to task those who blame America first and who do not understand—or who are unwilling to defend—our fundamental principles.(15)

He is speaking his mind, which is protected under the 1st Amendment. And “take to task” has many interpretations. Miscommunication happens when this is interpreted as only punitive.

I'm starting to think we've been invaded with AVOT members who are hell-bent on making us all think we're "anti-American" because we speak against policies we take issue with.

They did this to the protestors of the Viet Nam war - they called them un-American and treacherous. We are the equivalent of "the protestors of the 21st Century".

Soldiers, who were also citizens, were spit on when they returned from doing the job they were told to do. Do you associate yourself with those people?

I will not be deterred in speaking my mind against policies that appear dangerous to the liberties and rights of the American citizen just because a group has decided "their way is the only American way".

Nobody is deterring anybody here. We are just asking that all positions be considered.

jsobecky,

If you are calling people "anti-American" or unAmerican because they speak against a policy of the government, or against the administration that is driving that policy - you are not just asking for "both sides to be heard".

The way "both sides are heard" is for some one to "speak the other side" - not accuse those they disagree with of being treacherous or unpatriotic.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by jsobecky
Because one of the most influential members has repeatedly authored anti-administration topics. That is his right, of course, but what happens is that it paints conservatives in a negative light. To what purpose? To make this site a mini "Daily Kos" forum? I would expect more balance from one in his position.

Again (and again and again and again and again and again...), I was seriously critical of the Clinton administration when I helped run the "Political Conspiracies & Coverups" forum on CompuServe. If anyone here recalls the "SkeptiGuy" from those days... you'll know I was.

As I've tried to explain (several times), being a "critical thinking conspiracy aficionado" means I'm hard-wired to doubt whatever spew comes from the general direction of a politicians mouth. Why is it hard to understand this?

The problem is, threads like this one, and "I have a Dream" threads, attempt to label conservatives and Republicans as the real anti-Americans. And that is just plain wrong, no matter how you spin it.

Again (and again and again and again and again and again...), I think I've developed a strong enough record of commentary here that makes it very clear I feel both "liberal" and "conservative" are full of bullocks and the systematic effort to use the system to divide the public and set them against each other is the single most significant problem (and conspiracy) of our era.

I can even concede that SO. Yet the fact that you need to post the previous on here, is indicative of the sentiment being expressed here by the few conservatives left speaking out on ATS. Perhaps you USED to be critical of the Left, however everything you post now is adamantly against, not just questioning; against, the conservative side of the isle.

I've never said that we should not question the Administration, I am saying we should not attack them. I am saying there are better words, better forms of questioning then calling them traitors and war criminals. You think there is no left swing here? How many conservative supporters are there, vocal, left on here? josbecky, muaddib, myself? The remainder are silent. Your going to say that this is an indication of the way the country is swinging? That there are only 3 "NEOCONS" HAHAHAHA, sorry, left on here out of how many thousand members!!!
The very fact that everytime jsobecky posted, there were 3, 4 sometimes 5 chiming in against her is a direct indication of what I am talking about.

Is it even remotely possible that the entire right side of the Government is corrupt and evil. This is ATS, perhaps they were all abducted by aliens in an attempt to destroy the strength of our country by discrediting the right?
How is it that you (the left) can be completely correct and we (the right) be so completely wrong? Heck I even roll craps once in awhile, the odds are there if you wont believe the people.
semper

[edit on 6/15/2006 by semperfortis]

[edit on 6/15/2006 by semperfortis]

semper, I actually can tell you there are alot more conservative on here....rather were. Not to label republicans or conservative because I have my own bundle of conservative views, especially toward government downsizing, I think many republicans revert to insulting way too fast. Other then you and jsobecky(99% of the time) and muaddib(maybe half the time) and a couple other members I cannot name right off the top of my head, republicans seem to be literally attacking certain things. Ive seen republicans on here that said kill muslims, all of them in the country. Not over in iraq and not the terrorists, regular muslim people. He said they are the root to evil and need to all be killed off.

Sadly there are people like that representing the republican party. Its unfortunate because I, unlike others, know that you aren't that person. But when enough people come on here "proud to be republican" then say things like that, people get a negative view of them. Its not so much the long term members on here that are the problem its those new member that are republicans whos sole goal of coming on here is to insult and bash the left members as much as possible before getting banned.

Ive seen it happen and was disgusted, for the next few days I didnt bother coming on ATS. Some people representing the left Im sad to see doing so. Their views are just as messed up as the republicans, but they at the root arent violent. It goes against the main left belief to be violent so to me thats tolerable. They may call you a tradior but at least they are advocating violence like I have seen from more conservative members.

I think the main difference is that if a person claimed to be left then said death to "group here" he really wouldn't be a left person at all because violence is something the left is strongly against. Conservatives are for violence when necessary(which I agree with under certain circumstances if you can identify the enemy).

Originally posted by grimreaper797
...identify the enemy).

*Jumps up and down waving hands like a jr high nerd*
Me me me, I know I know!

Those who are encouraging seperation and division by means of polarization.

You're still stuck on left versus right. How many times do I need to express that I am neither?

Any forum that is critical of government will seem leftward leaning during a conservative administration... And visa versa.

There are many core attributes of the "conservative platform" I support. However, I strongly disagree with the manner in which the people of this administration are conducting themselves.

(more later)


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Posted Via ATSmobile (BETA v0.3)


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semperfortis, you are displaying paranoia because you have supported something which you atleast subconsciously know to have been wrong. You might not want to admit that you have been duped by this "conservative" administration/party but you have been.

Just because you, or anyone else, supported this Republican administration does not make you a bad person. Therefore criticism of this Republican administration is not aimed at you personally. If you can untangle your own person from that of this administration you might not get so uptight when people blast what is blatantly wrong.

However if you continue to enforce the false left/right paradigm then you are only going to sink deeper and deeper into paranoia. The only true paradigm that exists is right/wrong.

Believing that there is some major leftist slant to ATS is absurd. If there was people such as yourself, Muaddib and jsobecky would of been quietly banned for any number of T&C violations I personally have seen you guys make. Not to mention the fact that this is a privately owned messageboard and no explanation would be necessary for said action anyway. So why are you still allowed to post on here if ATS is leftist? Why are you free to post what ever opinion you have?

When I first started posting here I got set upon very harshly indeed by a few very vocal and active "conservative" members. To begin with it was djohnsto77 and Muaddib and then along came jsobecky. I couldnt believe half of the stuff they got away with posting and could only rationalize (personally) that there was a "conservative" bias going on. Now that you are claiming the complete opposite, what does that say? It says we were both WRONG. There is no way this board is biased. The members AND staff are biased because we all base our posts on our own ideals and thoughts which cannot help but be biased. This is not the same as claiming the board is some how geared to supressing "conservatives" or "the right", thats absurd.

To me, the last remaining way ATS could of supressed any viewpoint in which to facilitate a left/right leaning bias BOARDWIDE was via the "no" votes in ATSNN. Since that option is no longer around it has become impossible to say there is any institutional bias regarding ATS. Unless you have evidence of "conservative" members posts being removed/edited or "conservative" members being denied registration or having their accounts banned you have no basis for spreading the baseless rumours you have.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
semper, I actually can tell you there are alot more conservative on here....rather were. Not to label republicans or conservative because I have my own bundle of conservative views, especially toward government downsizing, I think many republicans revert to insulting way too fast. Other then you and jsobecky(99% of the time) and muaddib(maybe half the time) and a couple other members I cannot name right off the top of my head, republicans seem to be literally attacking certain things. Ive seen republicans on here that said kill muslims, all of them in the country. Not over in iraq and not the terrorists, regular muslim people. He said they are the root to evil and need to all be killed off.

Sadly there are people like that representing the republican party. Its unfortunate because I, unlike others, know that you aren't that person. But when enough people come on here "proud to be republican" then say things like that, people get a negative view of them. Its not so much the long term members on here that are the problem its those new member that are republicans whos sole goal of coming on here is to insult and bash the left members as much as possible before getting banned.

Ive seen it happen and was disgusted, for the next few days I didnt bother coming on ATS. Some people representing the left Im sad to see doing so. Their views are just as messed up as the republicans, but they at the root arent violent. It goes against the main left belief to be violent so to me thats tolerable. They may call you a tradior but at least they are advocating violence like I have seen from more conservative members.

I think the main difference is that if a person claimed to be left then said death to "group here" he really wouldn't be a left person at all because violence is something the left is strongly against. Conservatives are for violence when necessary(which I agree with under certain circumstances if you can identify the enemy).

Sadly Grim, I have no argument there.


Yet there is Hope, the conservative ideal is founded and based, for me, on the long standing true American ethic. When men wore hats and their word was good enough.

Please though Grim, don't get me wrong, I am not "for" violence. I just believe that as long as there are evil people out there willing to do violence, that there must be those willing to meet that with violence. Yes, in other words me. But that is my profession after all.

But there has to be more republicans out there. Where are you my brothers?? Oh where are you? HAHAHAHA
Thanks for the support my friend.
Semper

AHHHH, but subz

Perhaps I was not making myself clear, I do that sometimes. I intended to say that the members are more left. Not the board administration. To me that is a totally different matter and I truly appreciate the way the board is run. (sucking up here)

Let me point out to one issue here if I may . . .

If you are happy with what the present administration and its leaders are doing . . . then . . . you have nothing to complain about . . . right?

So . . . in an . . . everything is ok mind anything that contradicts that way of thinking is wrong and unpatriotic . . . but . . . that is the way is has been played out, to stop thinking for yourself if you are a follower and just accept what has been told to you for the good of the nation . . . right?

But who is dictating what is good or what is bad for the nation or its people?

When all alone we have been drilled that you are right if you are a follower and wrong if you are not.

What a dilemma, You are with me or . . . against me so divided we stand.

Originally posted by semperfortis
AHHHH, but subz

Perhaps I was not making myself clear, I do that sometimes. I intended to say that the members are more left. Not the board administration. To me that is a totally different matter and I truly appreciate the way the board is run. (sucking up here)

Well I have noticed a change in the demeanor of ATSNN too. But from where I stand it seems that the vocal and forceful "conservatives" have either left or toned down their rhetoric. Maybe you have picked up on that too, but you have attributed it to an increase in "leftists".

I honestly view ATSNN as being completely balanced now. I dont find myself being overwhelmed by vicious and sustained attacks on my character or my politics any more. Again, to reiterate, this is because we have gone from an extreme "conservative" arena to that of a neutral playingfield. Not that we've gone from a neutral playingfield to that of a "leftist" arena.

Originally posted by jsobecky
Do you disagree with his assessment? Do you think that terrorism is not a threat to our lives?

Keep in mind the context of where you're asking that question. At the risk of sounding like a "broken record" (over and over again), AboveTopSecret.com is primarily a conspiracy theory website (that has evolved to include a broad spectrum of alternative topics). The answer to that question will have a response here that is unlike the "mainstream" response.

While the media and political rhetoric would condition us to be terrified of the terrorist threat, many here on ATS believe the reality is likely somewhere between minimal threat and that which is promoted by AVOT. Our attention to the details of history has taught us that the American government has proven to have collaborated with terrorists, and has planned to pretend to be terrorists to kill innocents and start a war. These are known and proven events. So extrapolating such information to today, and we find that we "conspiracy theorists" are highly skeptical of the real nature of the 'terrorist threat". If the US government once colluded with terrorists, or planned terrorism, what is to stop them from doing it again?

Nobody is deterring anybody here. We are just asking that all positions be considered.

I'm sorry, but when it comes to critique and analysis of government policy and the speculation of scandal and conspiracy, you're not going to find balance on AboveTopSecret.com... it just won't happen. We certainly strive (hard) to ensure that lead-in introductions of ATSNN stories focus on facts and contain no biased statements... but that's the extent of our efforts at balance.

The idea of "balance" is a fraud anyway. It continues promote the intellectual rape of this country through the divide and conquer tactics. It promotes the two-sided approach that implies we must pick one side over the other, then sit back and blame the other side for everything that is wrong, and withhold credit for everything that is right.

We're always going to embrace and promote all angles of any discussion. That's the best interpretation of fair and balanced you'll find here... and maybe the best anywhere.

Perhaps a conspiracy against conspiracies has been in the making for years to stop the spread of information, after all many belief that conspiracies are the roots of all evil in our society.

Conspiracy theory is doing America real harm. Long incubating underground, it has grown into the greatest enslaver of human minds since communism. It irrationalizes thinking on every issue. It kills. It turns millions of Americans against their own country. It undermines foreign policy by vilifying our government's every effort.

- Ira Straus
Christian Science Monitor

Are we conspirators a threat to our American way of live and to our government?

Are we Crackpots and False Patriots, are we in conjunction with some communist agenda?

It's that the definition many have about conspiracy sites?