Haditha is the tip of the iceberg - Iraq atrocities continue

Pretty much ever since the start of the war, Iraqis have been saying that US forces treat the place as a free fire zone. If an IED goes off, the US forces shoot up the entire landscape.

That's why the victims in Haditha were hiding in their house, not that it did them much good.

Previously the focus was on Abu Grhaib, trying to pull the old "rotten apple" trick. "It was just a few rotten apples, we can take care of them." Meanwhile, the systematic aspects of it are subsumed and a few grunts take the fall for their superiors, all the way up to Rumsfeld.

Now Haditha has hit the headlines and the old "rotten apples" excuse is being trotted out again. This is nonsense. This has been going on for years and the tragic racist truth of it is that as long as it was only Iraqis were saying it, it was being IGNORED.

But now that Haditha has hit the headlines, US soldiers who 'served' (nice euphemism, I prefer 'went to Iraq to kill for their leaders') in Iraq are coming out and saying how wrong it actually was.

There will be posters saying I'm just an anti-American and don't (ha!) "support the troops". Actually, I have every sympathy for ordinary people put into that situation. Not as much as I have for their Iraqi victims, but those people who have to live with killing innocents have a tough time of it too.

Here is a link to a BBC clip showing interviews with ex-servicemen. Iraq Veterans Against the War is an organisation that is exactly what it says on the label, and the interviews herein are genuinely moving.

One guy in particular talks about how you could basically kill anyone you wanted if you were driving around. On patrol they would always carry a shovel with them so they could put it by the side of any dead bodies by the roadside - "oh, he was digging an IED". He's ashamed of what he did, but "you just get carried along while you're out there". Groupthink at its most dangerous.

Another guy is in tears as he talks about his guilt for the things he did and witnessed while in Iraq.

Here is the link to the whole programme.

A few extra stories:


The 10.000th Haditha
In another town, Iraqis say US killed civiliansAnother BBC report on Haditha
You can see the reaction of the puppet Iraqi politician here, it's quite illuminating, as is the story of what actually happened on that day. I've been flamed here for using the word "babykillers". Well you know what? It was justified. The youngest victim in Haditha was 2 years old.
New "Iraq Massacre" tape emerges. Here John Simpson of the BBC reports on another massacre in which the US lied about what happened. According to the US version, they raided a house in which an AlQaeda suspect was, according to a tip-off, visiting. a firefight ensued and the house collapsed. Videotape evidence, on the other hand, supports the Iraqi police version which is that US forces entered the house and killed everyone inside including a 2 month old baby.

That word again? Babykillers.

But why wait for babies to be actually born? Why not just shoot pregnant women instead?

why did not the iraqi people just accept the lesser of two evils and leave saddam in power, without going to the english and usa.

usa can do far more damage to the people of iraq than saddam could ever do. but people never thing about whats in it for the others and long term things, they just naively ask for help from those countries and think england and usa is going to do what the iraqis want, no way in hell.

iraqis should of left well alone and sorted out there own problems.

yep, just watched the vid. sends a shiver up your spine. the conditioning and mind control these geezers go through to commit those acts. i do not usually bother watching anything to do with the war, but that is bad.

and the west wonders why arabs hate the west, are you kidding. i remember speaking once to a former english soldier who fought in the first gulf war, about the present war, i asked him why do the english do this and what right do they have. his reply was "the english can do what ever they want". that statement seems to be put into all these soldiers, does it not.



[edit on 2-6-2006 by andy1033]

We invaded Iraq. Remember?
Those people did not ask us to topple Saddam.
Whats up with you?

Originally posted by dgtempe
We invaded Iraq. Remember?
Those people did not ask us to topple Saddam.
Whats up with you?

Depends on who you asking. Im certain there were other certain peoples that prefer America's help on toppling him down.

Originally posted by dgtempe
We invaded Iraq. Remember?
Those people did not ask us to topple Saddam.
Whats up with you?

no, there have always been groups in iraq that have wanted this to happen, i.e the invasion. they met with bush and blair before the war, do you not remember. but surely those iraqis must of wished they did not now. i wonder what will happen when iran war starts.

and america could not have attacked if it did not have some corperation with some groups inside.

one last thing, in the video, the soldier says that they are taught to see the iraqis as animals. this is the same language that the nazis told there officers to see the undesireables in europe in the 30's and 40's. germans got slaughtered for calling there enemies animals and treating them as such, but it is ok for english and usa troops to do just as bad, and they get away with it.

[edit on 2-6-2006 by andy1033]

Allegations and guilt are non-eqivalent. One should refrain from getting one's panties in a twist based on allegations, such behavior lends itself to hysteria.

Would it be possible to establish a general forum entitled "Bashing of the USA" whereby all thread topics relative to the bashing of anything "American" would be relegated?

......pats self on back for such an awesome idea

Smokenmirrors,

No use being in denial. Its not as if this is a conspiracy. They are rightfully being investigated for inhumane atrocities which continue and persist daily.

This is no longer "speculation"

Originally posted by smokenmirrors
Allegations and guilt are non-eqivalent. One should refrain from getting one's panties in a twist based on allegations, such behavior lends itself to hysteria.

Would it be possible to establish a general forum entitled "Bashing of the USA" whereby all thread topics relative to the bashing of anything "American" would be relegated?

......pats self on back for such an awesome idea

how is it anti american to say things are wrong over there, how many things need to happen before people like you see that the way things are there and what the soldiers are doing is what the people want from the top. the soldier in the video is talking about how they use mind control and conditioning to get these soldiers in there modes, like what he said if they saw the iraqis as humans you could not do this.
like i say above, saying you where ordered to do something wrong is not an excuse, we get that from the nuremberg trials. 50 years ago, the world was in outrage because the germans called there undesireables animals. americas and english call the iraqis animals and are trained to call them animals, and american and english people think it is great.

Originally posted by smokenmirrors
Allegations and guilt are non-eqivalent.

These are CONFESSIONS obtained, mark you, WITHOUT torture taking place.

Would it be possible to establish a general forum entitled "Bashing of the USA" whereby all thread topics relative to the bashing of anything "American" would be relegated?

......pats self on back for such an awesome idea

WHAT a clever idea. It would enable you to dodge any inconvenient facts and retreat ever further into denial. The US is the Leader of the Free World! Yay! [/sarcasm]

Originally posted by rich23

There will be posters saying I'm just an anti-American

Don't want to say I told you so... but what the hell, this post would be deemed too short otherwise.

Told you so.

Hey Rich, you must be a very busy guy.

I can imagine the work you must be putting in on all posts about the thousands and thousands of indiscriminate civilian deaths caused by the terrorists and insurgents. I mean, if a couple of possible instances involving the USA cause you this much angst, I can only imagine how much of an uproar you must be in over the countless insurgent civilian murders.

Hey, if you need any help creating the many hundreds and hundreds of posts documenting the terrorist civilian massacres and murders, let me know, there are so many you will need it.

Man, you must be going 24/7 to get all those posted, there are so many hundreds of examples...When will we see the first one?

What Rich? You are only upset about the ones the USA may have committed? You mean the tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi's targeted and killed by the insurgents don’t bother you?

I thought as much. Captain Agenda.

The Iraqis are defending their turf in the few ways they have left. I'm not exactly happy about it, but the situation wouldn't have arisen had the US not invaded on trumped-up charges of WMDs. I'm sure you could post on this topc.

Or are there other things you'd rather spin?

At least you didn't just call me anti-American.

Mind you, you did call me Captain Agenda. Not very witty, but why, then, don't you document this allegation of tens of thousands of Iraqis killed by the insurgents.

IF you can.

[edit on 2-6-2006 by rich23]

What remains are allegations. Allegations are not indicative of guilt. Did these things happen? Possibly. Are they going to be investigated, indeed. Will those involved be prosecuted, likely, but not certain. I would ask, with the amount of atrocities in any given society during peacetime in this day and age, why does it surprise you that an incident such as this would arise during war? Further, is there a personal satisfaction one receives through the focus on such allegations?

And another item, should one choose to do a bit of study of wars past, the things alledged here invariabley occur during war, and have throughout history.

Originally posted by smokenmirrors
What remains are allegations.

Ok, miss my point about confessions and spin it how you want.

...Are they going to be investigated, indeed.

What, all of them? It's the tip of the iceberg, a point you prefer not to acknowledge.

Will those involved be prosecuted, likely, but not certain.

My point about maintaining the "few rotten apples" story stands.

I would ask, with the amount of atrocities in any given society during peacetime in this day and age, why does it surprise you that an incident such as this would arise during war?

This is why the Geneva Conventions were written. But Bush and his cronies don't think it applies to them. And the US refuses to sign up to the ICC because they know they'd drown in a flood of prosecutions.

Further, is there a personal satisfaction one receives through the focus on such allegations?

You'd rather I just buried my head in the sand and ignored it like a good little sheep? What kind of sneaky allegation are you trying to insinuate in that question? As it happens I'm a UK citizen who is disgusted that my tax monies should be being spent on this kind of obscenity. It was bad enough when we supported him, just as bad when we were bombing him, and now this.... it beggars belief, frankly, that people can support their leaders in this matter.

And another item, should one choose to do a bit of study of wars past, the things alledged here invariabley occur during war, and have throughout history.

Which is why unprovoked war, like the one the US picked in Iraq and which dragged my country into it, are illegal, and the worst crime in the book. How many Iraqis have to die before someone says, well, maybe we should have left Saddam in power? There's a thread on here that suggests that the average Iraqi is much worse off now. They certainly seem to think they are.

Oh yes....returning vets like Jessie MacBeth...

In every war 'bad' things happen...is it possible that this really happened? Possibily....but the point is that one should not be presumed guilty on an accusation.

Rich23.......if it turns out to be a set-up b the insurgents......are you going to apologize?......I didn't think so.....

Also you mention is Iraqis defending their turf........so a individual form Syria, Iran or other places from the middle east (Iraq excluded) are justified for blowing up Iraqi civilians?

What about the muslim bombings in India or the Phillipinnes? Those are justified against civilians?

Also Saddam was in voilation of the 1990-91 peace accord...for 12 years.....

[edit on 2-6-2006 by ferretman2]

Originally posted by ferretman2
Also Saddam was in voilation of the 1990-91 peace accord...for 12 years.....

[edit on 2-6-2006 by ferretman2]

what about the million or so kids that died because of sanctions, between the two wars. caused by america and england. everyone forgets this.

What will it take for some people. These are soldiers who admitted that it was common practice for this to happen. These are people who went to defend our country from the same threats that you are afraid of. When they come back and tell you stories about the atrocities they themselves, or people close to them have commited, with video evidence, you have the nerve to call them liars. Just because what they are telling you doesn't fit with what your pre conceived notions are, you call them America bashers. These are the same people that you hailed and praised as they went off to defend your nation.

For shame

Edit: news.bbc.co.uk...

Something else to watch

[edit on 2-6-2006 by Rasobasi420]

Also Saddam was in voilation of the 1990-91 peace accord...for 12 years.....

There was no 'peace accord'.

There was UN resolution 687, and Iraq was in full compliance.

The suggestion that they were violating the agreement is based on the idea that the Iraqi STATE actually possessed WMD, which they did not.

If you think different please let us know what they did that violated 687, and remember that the No-Fly-Zones were not authorized by the UN.

Originally posted by ferretman2
Oh yes....returning vets like Jessie MacBeth...

You just didn't look, did you?

This is not some internet scam, this is the BBC interviewing returned vets who have got together to tell the truth about what they saw and did.

Personally, with the timing and all, I suspect that MacBeth was a tool of the disinfo crowd out to discredit the real guys. It seems to have worked for you.

Originally posted by rich23
What remains are allegations.

"Ok, miss my point about confessions and spin it how you want."

Historically many have confessed to crimes they did not committ. In my country one is innocent until PROVEN guilty.

...Are they going to be investigated, indeed.

"What, all of them? It's the tip of the iceberg, a point you prefer not to acknowledge."

The tip of the iceberg is opinion only.

Will those involved be prosecuted, likely, but not certain.

"My point about maintaining the "few rotten apples" story stands."

And to expect absolute justice in life is quite platonic.

I would ask, with the amount of atrocities in any given society during peacetime in this day and age, why does it surprise you that an incident such as this would arise during war?

"This is why the Geneva Conventions were written. But Bush and his cronies don't think it applies to them. And the US refuses to sign up to the ICC because they know they'd drown in a flood of prosecutions."

Ask the so called insurgent to recite the basic tenets of the Geneva Convention, see what his/her response is.

Further, is there a personal satisfaction one receives through the focus on such allegations?

"You'd rather I just buried my head in the sand and ignored it like a good little sheep? What kind of sneaky allegation are you trying to insinuate in that question? As it happens I'm a UK citizen who is disgusted that my tax monies should be being spent on this kind of obscenity. It was bad enough when we supported him, just as bad when we were bombing him, and now this.... it beggars belief, frankly, that people can support their leaders in this matter."

Nothing sneaky in my question, it is merely fascinating to me that the topic to which we refer, which remain allegations in my book until proof of guilt, sparks such a reaction when it pales in comparison to the treachery so evident elsewhere in the conflict. Should the allegations be true, they would be without doubt terrible in scope, this I concede, however, the beasts which behead innocents shall not merely fade into the woodwork if unchallenged, you suppose the free world should walk away and hope all works out for the best?

And another item, should one choose to do a bit of study of wars past, the things alledged here invariabley occur during war, and have throughout history.

"Which is why unprovoked war, like the one the US picked in Iraq and which dragged my country into it, are illegal, and the worst crime in the book. How many Iraqis have to die before someone says, well, maybe we should have left Saddam in power? There's a thread on here that suggests that the average Iraqi is much worse off now. They certainly seem to think they are."

The idea of unprovoked war is opinion, and as for it's legality, that would be opinion too. I am certain based on ones perspective either case could be argued. There are many Iraqis here in the USA, in Iraq, and elsewhere who would likely disagree with your assessment of the situation in their homeland. It is my belief the limited engagement in Iraq is but a piece of a much larger war being fought across the globe.




Mod Edit: BB Code.

[edit on 2/6/2006 by Mirthful Me]