Take the $10,000 challenge!

Originally posted by esdad71

This thread has no point.....

That's cause you don't understand it, or refuse to understand it. It's the perfect way to challenge Hani-Hanjour-huggers to defend their theory. Go try it and report back your results!

No, I mean you are telling people to pay 10000 dollars for a theory you have. That makes no sense. The only intelligent idea was to try it on a pc flight sim.

www.microsoft.com...

There, no 10 grand, maybe 20 bucks at your local EB games or such.

Oh if Flight Simulator counts then yes you can do it, like a lot of people I was one that tried it for myself back when it happened, and that was before I even started taking flying lessons (though I had been using flight sims for years).

For what's it's worth I also used to be able to fly a whole trip including take-off, flight across the atlantic and land (on the simulator) - which is far more complicated, obviously, than turning an already flying plane around and aiming it at a visible target on a crystal clear morning.
The bulk of the flight to the vicinity would be the easiest as you have GPS as an aid and programming some of these flight computers is relatively easy, you can get the information how to do it if you shop around...
Don't forget these people spent years training for their missions, it's not like they jumped in fresh faced without any preparation.
I got even better after having real flying lessons, though I gave the whole lot up nearly a couple of years ago now.

I don't know exactly how accurate flight simulator is though, the controls and procedures are pretty good but you obviously can't 'feel' the way the plane is behaving. Pilots I've spoken to who have used flight simulator have found it quite hard to use, at least some of them said it was harder.

[edit on 12-4-2006 by AgentSmith]

So when the planes were hijacked, did the hijackers have the exact coordinates of the Pentagon and WTC1 and 2? I mean did they fly the planes into them by sight only, or did they input coordinates into the planes computer and take over after they got close enough?

What I'm asking is exactly does a pilot figure out which way to go?

The easiest way would be to use GPS, even taking a handheld device on the aircraft would be better than nothing but I imagine they will have trained themselves to use the flight computer sufficiantly enough to use that.
They could have got the co-ordinates by either looking on the Internet, maps, books or by visiting the targets and recording the GPS locations using a handheld unit.
When flying you can also navigate using radio beacons, though a certain amount of skill is required and even though it's not impossible for them to have done it this way, I would imagine that they would have used GPS as it is far simpler and more accurate.
As the guy had is PPL, he will have learnt to navigate using radio beacons as part of the course, so it's not out of the question.

When learning you are taught to fly:

a) Visually (in fact you fly solo before learning to use navigational aids)
b) Using Radio Beacons

I imagine GPS is kept for more advanced flying and using more complex navigational computers as there is no mention of it in my training manual.

Here are some instructions on the basics, I'll try and see what else I can find:

www.757.org.uk...

Literature is easily available:

Book Description
Intended for use by professional airline pilts in preparation for their simulator checkride, this manual also has great carry-over information for the serious PC simmer who desires to know how the airline pilots "do it." Written in an entertaining and witty style, it is a great read for anyone who is interested in flying the Boeing 757/767 series airplanes.
www.amazon.com...

www.impactink.com...

Control Layout practise panels are easily available:

These 11 X 17" cockpit study panel for the B737-300/500 and the B757-200 are designed to fit neatly into your study package, using the identical graphics you will find in the widely acclaimed Professional Pilot's 737-300/500 and 757-200 Systems Guides. No trying to figure out which picture goes with what illustration. They are the same.
These panels use high resolution, full color and are accurate down to the last detail. They are perfect for memorizing "cockpit flows", learning the location of that switch, gauge or light, and just getting familiar with the cockpit layout.
www.impactink.com...

This guy may be more thjan happy to take Killtowns challenge (though I doubt he wants to go to jail):

After about a week of training, I was familiar with the layout of the flight deck and with the operation of the flight controls, autopilot, and navigation systems. As a result, flying the simulator was much less difficult than I had imagined at the beginning of the course. The most difficult part of the simulator training was takeoffs and landings. On the other hand, flying the aircraft in other phases of flight was relatively easy, even compared to flying a Cessna 172. Changing the aircraft's course, speed, or altitude was not very difficult when using either the autopilot system or when flying the aircraft manually. The flight control system made the aircraft rather responsive and made it easy to perform normal flying manuvers.
[..........]
In short, I believe that any person who has earned a private pilot's license and who has access to the same kind of ground school and simulator training that I received could fly a 757 or 767 well enough to hit a large building. Given the wide availability of this kind of training, it would appear that the kind of terrorist actions that took place in New York and Washington could easily be repeated in the future.
www.airsafe.com...

[edit on 12-4-2006 by AgentSmith]

The link I provided has the GPS coordiantes fro the Pentagon listed if you takea look at it. Plug it in and there you go.

Originally posted by esdad71
No, I mean you are telling people to pay 10000 dollars for a theory you have. That makes no sense.

Actually it does, it simulates somewhat of the nervousness and anxiety of knowing you're about to die in a plane crash!

But in the case of the Pentagon, the plane was flying VERY low. Like 20 feet off the ground, correct? They dont claim that the plane was decending when it hit, right? The story is that the plane was parallel with the ground before impacting the pentagon, correct?

Originally posted by plopunisher
But in the case of the Pentagon, the plane was flying VERY low. Like 20 feet off the ground, correct? They dont claim that the plane was decending when it hit, right? The story is that the plane was parallel with the ground before impacting the pentagon, correct?

Essentially that's what the official version says. The Pentagon security clips show this "plane" flying across parallel with the lawn, but that would be impossible (of course we all know the Pentagon security pics are fake).

The plane would have had to strike at least at a 5-deg angle.

Woa wait, you TRULEY believe they WONT arrest you if you TELL them you're going to fly that plane into a building?

People get arrested for saying profanity during public speeches, people get arrested for spitting near a cop, hell, I know people who've gotten arrested for attempting a giant tag game in a majour city as a prank.

Post 9/11 people have gotten detained for JOKING about terrorism, you have got to be kidding me.

Solution? Don't tell them. Leave notes everywhere, where the government can't cover them up, so that they can't say it was just another Arab.

Originally posted by Vinci
Woa wait, you TRULEY believe they WONT arrest you if you TELL them you're going to fly that plane into a building?

I doubt they'd arrest you when you tell them upfront that you're doing it as a challenge.

If you get arrested, it won't be for potentially being a terrorist threat, but for potentially blowing the official story wide open.

Originally posted by Killtown

Originally posted by Vinci
Woa wait, you TRULEY believe they WONT arrest you if you TELL them you're going to fly that plane into a building?

I doubt they'd arrest you when you tell them upfront that you're doing it as a challenge.

If you get arrested, it won't be for potentially being a terrorist threat, but for potentially blowing the official story wide open.

1. Motives never matter
2. I agree with the latter point, but that wont make the news; thus rendering the whole thing useless, a waste of time, and a waste of resources and such.
3. Disregard number 2, you just have to leave notes everywhere
4. Disregard number 3, they can just say you were a poor pilot.
5. Disregard number 4, get someone professional.
6. You get the point.

It's not as simple as that, you are expected to follow a set flight path rather than fly around as you please. They'd quickly start thinking it's odd that you deviate away from what you are supposed to be doing with a complete disregard for what the guy next to you is saying.. I don't think any amount of notes lying around anywhere would help, sorry.
You do also realise that it costs several thousand dollars/pounds to use these things for the amount of time you would require?

In other challenges like this, it's the challenger who puts up the money so how about this Killtown:

1) You put up the money, after all it's you that's creating the fuss and seems to think it's impossible.

2) You pay the simulator fees.

3) You do all the organising and explaining of what is going on to the staff and the Intelligence agencies..

Otherwise I see you not doing very much at all and not taking any risks financially or liberty wise... An easy cop out.. The way you've got this idea worded you have made it very easy to call anyone who points out it's ridiculous a coward/an agent/etc and keep yourself off the hook.. HArdly objective..

How about you do something towards it?

[edit on 13-4-2006 by AgentSmith]

Originally posted by Killtown
(of course we all know the Pentagon security pics are fake).

Not fake, just edited. If you take a look at the orignal photos, you'll notice one second is missing. "That doesn't matter" even if you disregard that error and look at the pictures in order, you can just TELL that one is missing.

Originally posted by AgentSmith

Seems like you Hani-Hanjour-Huggers have really got your panties in a twist after I presented my challenge to you guys. Must have struck a nerve!

Originally posted by Vinci
Not fake, just edited. If you take a look at the orignal photos, you'll notice one second is missing. "That doesn't matter" even if you disregard that error and look at the pictures in order, you can just TELL that one is missing.

No, like totally fabricated. the "plane tail", white smoke trails, and fireball were photoshopped on there. Nothing could have flown parallel mere feet off the ground that fast from coming from up high off the embankment where the highway was.

Naw, I totally have it down that a missle struck. Often when talking to people about 9/11 they ALWAYS have to correct me, I always say 3 planes. To me it's just fact that there were 3 planes, and so I always end up offending people in public speeches and such. Even when not discussing 9/11, just as an example. IE

"Like the 3 planes on 9/11, America's economy will fall."
"Excuse me? 3?"
"Yeah"
"Don't you mean 4?"
"*Weird facial expression*...OH RIGHT, 4..sorry..uh, yeah we can talk about that later."
"Huh?"
"Nevermind"

All infront of ~250 people. Oh the shame .

Originally posted by Killtown

Originally posted by Vinci
Not fake, just edited. If you take a look at the orignal photos, you'll notice one second is missing. "That doesn't matter" even if you disregard that error and look at the pictures in order, you can just TELL that one is missing.

No, like totally fabricated. the "plane tail", white smoke trails, and fireball were photoshopped on there. Nothing could have flown parallel mere feet off the ground that fast from coming from up high off the embankment where the highway was.

Uh, Plane tale = part of the missle, and yes, a missle could of easily flown feet off the ground.

Oh my gosh dude, photos or no photos, you can't ignore tons and tons of witness reports, and photos of the highway itself. Someone actually once told me that they just had people go out and use hammers and other tools to make it look like that...Oh right infront of ALLLLLLL those people on the highway.

Originally posted by Killtown

Originally posted by AgentSmith

Seems like you Hani-Hanjour-Huggers have really got your panties in a twist after I presented my challenge to you guys. Must have struck a nerve!

The only nerve that is struck is the "ignometer" inside that tells us you have no idea what you are talking about. Like already stated, go ahead and take your challenge and let us know how it goes.

Well lets see here. I program the waypoints into the autopilot, making sure to select the appropriate altitude. I might have trouble with the exact coordinates for that particular side of the Pentagon. I wonder if I can get a tour and take my Magellan GPS. See where I'm going. I worked for a subcontractor to Boeing in the 80's and spent alot of time out at Everett, Washington. Some of the techs took me into the 747-400 simulator and showed me how easy it is to program an autopilot. From what I understand they are simpler now.