Truce ends tomorrow

Originally posted by stumason
For several years now Israel has used completely
disporpotionate force against the very small Palestinian
uprising.

There is no such thing as 'disporportionate force' being used
when you are talking about defense. The failed doctrine of
'measured response' is something that causes MORE terrorist
attacks .. not less.

When terrorists hit a target, and that target just slaps them,
this emboldens the terrorists to hit again. However, if the
terrorists receive significant damage in return for their
acts then they are much less likely to strike again.

If you know you can beat up someone, you will do it again.
But if you come upon someone who is 6'4 and has a weight
of 260 pounds, you aren't very likely to sass him because
he could flatten you. Right?

BTW - The 'very small Palestinian uprising' is not 'very small'.
Statistically it's rather large and it's not an 'uprising'... it's
terrorism and murder and it's an invasion of a recognized
soverign nation - Israel.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
When terrorists hit a target, and that target just slaps them,
this emboldens the terrorists to hit again. However, if the
terrorists receive significant damage in return for their
acts then they are much less likely to strike again.

this is crap, in fact most of the american comments on terrorism are crap, you people really don't have a clue. if you bomb the hell out of a settlement as retaliation for a terrorist attack you strengthen a terrorist group because disproportionate retaliation make terrorists out of normal people. this is a fact. it's been proven time and again.if isreal hasn't gotten the terrorists to lay down arms at this stage but the british have then surely the british model is the one to follow.

by the way a terrorist organisation never ever recieves significant losses, ever, if twenty people from a terrorist group are killed in a raid, thats twenty martyrs to inspire twenty new terrorists each, which ties into a point stu made, it will also inspire stupid forriginers to donate huge ammounts of cash to your ''cause'', the way americans did for the IRA. if you ever put money in a box in an irish pub you should considder your own links to terrorism, some of you must, ireland certainly didn't finance the IRA in the 70's,80's and early 90's, it was the almost sole responcibility of american citizens, not the gov.,not any federal organization but private citizens and businesses so you can see why all this preachey misguided crap you guys are being fed annoys us no end on this side of the atlantic.

lastly treat history with some large dose of caution, remember what churchill said''i know history will look on me kindly, i intend to write it that way.'' one mans invaison is anothers legal repossesion of land just as one mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter.

[edit on 31-12-2005 by pieman]

Originally posted by pieman
this is crap

Nope. It's fact.

you people really don't have a clue

Right back atycha.

make terrorists out of normal people

Nope. Normal people don't become terrorists just because
terrorists are killed off.

thats twenty martyrs to inspire

Nope. That's 20 dead terrorists that won't be murdering anyone anymore.

remember what churchill said ...

Remember what Chamberlain said 'peace in our time'... when he made
deals with the Nazis. Appeasement just means that you make deals
with murderers so that the croc eats you last.

one mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter.

Oh gawd . Newsflash ... Palestinians who shoot up cars
with pregnant women and children and jump for joy over killing
'the enemy' are not freedom fighters. They are murderers.
Palestinians who jump for joy and have parties in the streets
because 3,000 Americans died on 9/11 - including children and
pregnant women - are not freedom fighters. They are murderers.

IF Hamas really wanted peace, they would have grabbed it back
at the Camp David talks when President Clinton got Israel to
give the Palestinians 95% if what they wanted ... including joint
ownership of Jerusalem. Freedom fighters would have taken
the deal and rejoiced over it. Terrorists (which they are) would
have (and did) turn it down in order to keep on killing and to keep
their power and to keep the $$ flowing to them. (Arafat stole
millions upon millions from the Palestinians ... some freedom
fighter, eh?)


[edit on 12/31/2005 by FlyersFan]

This thread is indicative of the convoluted logic and circular progression that has been the trademark of the 'land of milk and honey' throughout recorded history. The Israelites who occupied the 'Promised Land' (by force, ima) 3K years or so ago bear little resemblance to the citizens of the State of Israel that are doing likewise today. The methods are similar, but the people themselves are not.

The mandate has changed, as well. God Himself delivered the 'Promised Land' into the hands of the Israelites, if you believe the OT (I do). Prior to that it was occupied by a multitude of tribes; the Hizzites, the Amorites, the Jebusites, the Moabites, etc. The Brits, along with the UN, delivered Palestine to the Jews in 1948, at least that's how the story goes. If you look on a map at the boundaries established then, it is clear that conflict is, was, and will be, inevitable. The State of Israel has more and bigger guns, thanks to the US, as well as obviously superior military strategy, so the current situation shouldn't be surprising, either.

I find the timing of the establishment of the current State of Israel in 1948 very interesting. Imo, it was part of a secret truce with the remnants of the Nazis (and their technologically advanced allies?) that Admiral Byrd ran into on his polar expeditions. This is, after all, a conspiracy site, right?

How's that for a curve ball? It may not be in the strike zone, but lots of people may want to take a swing at it anyway.

Here's to hoping peace breaks out all over the world in 2006!

Icarus Rising

He, he, doesn't the tales goes farther that the resent history.

I was brought up believing that the "Land of the Palestines" was given to the Israelis to take it away from their original inhabitants by the Hebrew God.

Correct me if I am wrong, and since then Israel can not achieve peace.

But then again I was borough up to believe that the reason Israel will never has peace is because they killed Jesus.

I guess when Historical facts are mix with religions it kind of make a mess of everything.

But the truth is that the people that now is settler in Palestine are of Arab descend and the original Palestine's with Israel.

It tells you the historical facts of Israel, Palestine and the Arab migration to palestine is just a big mess.

Sorry about the rant.

[edit on 31-12-2005 by marg6043]

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Nope. It's fact.
Right back atycha.
Nope. Normal people don't become terrorists just because
terrorists are killed off.
Nope. That's 20 dead terrorists that won't be murdering anyone anymore.

i'm basing my opinion on it from twenty six years of living with terrorism daily, a history education almost soley devoted to terrorism in an country where everybody has some direct experiance of terrorism. which political party you choose is still largely decided in this country on the grounds of which terrorist leader you feel was better 70 years ago FFS, i've got some clue, but not much, somthing i know, you on the other hand havn't told me anything i couldn't have learnt from fox. who's got a clue?

Remember what Chamberlain said 'peace in our time'... when he made
deals with the Nazis. Appeasement just means that you make deals
with murderers so that the croc eats you last.

whats the link, i'm saying history is written by the victors, your saying apeasment didn't deter hitler, which is true, apeasement didn't deter hitler

Oh gawd

. Newsflash ... Palestinians who shoot up cars
with pregnant women and children and jump for joy over killing
'the enemy' are not freedom fighters. They are murderers.
Palestinians who jump for joy and have parties in the streets
because 3,000 Americans died on 9/11 - including children and
pregnant women - are not freedom fighters. They are murderers.

when you can't be rational, at least be good at being emotionally manipulative, i could say that isrealis that use automatic weapons against youths armed with rocks are bad men too,i could say american hardware killed far more palistian innocents, there are alot of bad people in the world, whats your point? do you think its a compition on who's eviler?

IF Hamas really wanted peace, they would have grabbed it back
at the Camp David talks when President Clinton got Israel to
give the Palestinians 95% if what they wanted ... including joint
ownership of Jerusalem. Freedom fighters would have taken
the deal and rejoiced over it. Terrorists (which they are) would
have (and did) turn it down in order to keep on killing and to keep
their power and to keep the $$ flowing to them. (Arafat stole
millions upon millions from the Palestinians ... some freedom
fighter, eh?)

so the palistinians are being screwed on all sides, i believe you, thats the worst thing about being oppressed, everyone try's to get in on the act, what i'm saying is that there are two sides to every story, uasually more. my opinion of weather somone is wrong in carrying out a militery operation doesn't mean it's wrong or that everyone should believe that it is. you can't stop terrorisim unless you emotionally detach yourself from the situation, because the things terrorists do are hateful to the people on the recieving end of it and you cannot live peacably with somone you hate.

and yes, i do live like that, we have to watch murderers walking free to buy our peace, people have died and will die again for our peace,we've been slaped on every cheek and still find another to turn, but thats our cost for peace on these islands, what did yours cost you? you think 9/11 was big proprtionatly, take a look at these attrocitys on an island of five million people.

www.victims.org.uk...
news.bbc.co.uk...
en.wikipedia.org...

i don't have a clue, but your a edited due to circumvention that might lead to circumcision if continued!expert, right?


[edit on 1-1-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne

Truce ends tomorrow

Militant Palestinian factions said on Saturday that as of New Year's Day they would no longer be bound by a truce that has brought the quietest spell since the start of the five-year-old uprising.

The armed groups said they would no longer be committed to following "a period of calm" despite the efforts of Palestinian Authority Mahmoud Abbas to preserve a ceasefire he sighed with Israel last February during a summit in Sharm el-Sheikh in Egypt.

Originally posted by therealdeal
I agree with stumason. stu did his homework.

Yes, he did his homework. I give him a solid D Minus on it.

that land was STOLEN from the palastinians during the war of 46-47

Yes, they did. Maybe they should take that up with the ones who stole it- namely the Jordanians.

King Hussein had a tacit understanding with the Jewish militias before the war that he was planning to conquer Palestine. At the last minute he changed his mind and told the militias that he was going to conquer Israel too, and the best he would offer them is autonomy within a greater Hashemite kingdom.

The Israelis refused this blatant insult to international law. Israel was then attacked by virtually every nation in the region, as well as several extra-national militias. Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, and Palestinian Militias all invaded Israel. But before that happened, something else happened.

en.wikipedia.org...

Right after the UN partition plan was approved, joint Jordanian, Egyptian, Syrian, Lebanese and Iraqi troops invaded Palestine, which Israel, the United States, the Soviet Union, and UN Secretary-General Trygve Lie called illegal aggression.

After Israel won the war, the took a few strategically necessary positions to ensure their security, leaving the West Bank and Gaza in Arab hands. Unfortunately for Palestine, the Jordanians did not give it back. The West Bank was under Jordanian Occupation. Gaza was under Egyptian Occupation.
Tell me, how much terrorism did those Arab nations suffer as a result? Where was the middle east crisis over that? I guess that it wasn't so bad because the Palestinians didn't care nearly as much about the land as they did about destroying the Infidel, who they have repeatedly refused to live in peace with, no matter what terms they are offered.

The Gaza Strip and West Bank were not occupied until after the Six Day War, and there is a perfectly acceptible reason for this. In the run-up to the Six Day War, Jordan signed an alliance with Egypt and Syria against Israel. When the alliance was signed, Egyptian President Nasser said "Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab People Want To Fight." At that point, Iraq, Algeria, and Kuwait began mobilizing their military forces. They share no borders with Israel- they could only have intended to stage their forces in Egyptian and Jordanian territory for an offensive. Israel therefore preempted, defeated the belligerents, and took away the most strategically threatening territory which those powers held.


It's important to realize that they did not withdraw in a vacuum, or merely for the sake of the Palestinians. Israel seems to have judged that there is a reduced likelihood of that ground being used to stage an attack on Israel now that Saddam is out of Iraq, the USSR is no longer there to protect the Arabs from the consequences of their actions (or to supply hardware- what Russia can now supply is no longer first-rate), relations with Egypt, Jordan, and Syria have shown some improvement, first and foremost in that they've stopped threatening to destroy eachother on a regular basis and haven't been in direct conflict for a while.

All signs seem to indicate that holding the West Bank and Gaza is reaching a point of diminishing returns in terms of security, and I believe that is a big part of why Israel has made the decision to give it back. I don't think the generals honestly expect peace with the Palestinians, but they realize that the diplomatic good of giving the land back at this point is a better defense than having the land, because the next threat Israel faces will not be conventional, but nuclear, and will not rely on positioning, but on diplomacy and the aid of foreign powers.

In short, Israel was right to occupy when they did, and they are right to leave when they did.

It's not really a bonehead move. It's not an extremely helpful move, I confess, because it's payoffs are potential while its consequences are almost certain, however I believe that when you are fighting for your survival as Israel always has been, you can't think 4 years ahead like American leaders- you have to think 50 or 100 years ahead.

100 years ahead, Israel needs to make sure that the next several generations of Palestinians are less angry at Israel and too busy with their jobs to take a day off for an intifada.

100 years ahead, Israel needs to be sure that America still thinks they are the good guys so that they can stay two steps ahead technologically, and the shift which threatens to occur in America over Iraq makes occupations a dangerous subject in the future of American-Israeli relations.

TC, its rare that you and I disagree but this is one of the cases.

If you really look at the Gaza withdrawl plan you will see that the its really the Palestinians who should be up in arms about it. Isreal made out quite well IMHO.

1) Isreal wins in the world of public opinion. They got huge mileage from the withdrawl process and the postive PR was note worthy.

2) The get rid of many Illegal and hard to defend settlements thus they are better able to protect the exisiting ones.

3) They did not have to shell out any of thier own $$$$$ for the withdrawl process and infact may come out ahead. Im sure in addition to the money there were other items offered up such as planes and other military hardware.

4) They continue to build the security wall.

5) They have now entrenched themselves and thier borders under what can be best described as a US / UN / EU approved plan. It is unlikely that they will budge any further and in fact have embarked on an agressive campaign to add to these and other settlements.

All in all Id say the Isreali security situation is better not worse and the Palestinians got the short end of the deal. What matters however is that there was some sort of progress after decades of ZIP.

In all fairness Fred, I don't exactly see how the Palestinians get the short end of it. It might not be as long as they wanted it to be, but Israel is giving them back land that their own Muslim brothers stole from them. When something that unlikely happens sometimes you need to count your blessings and stop killing people.
As for Israel making out like a bandit on the deal- I don't see anything wrong with that either. That's called a mutually beneficial solution- what did the Palestinians lose that they didn't already lose in 1948/1967?

The way I see it, Israel/Palestine is geographically and strategically unlikely to begin with. My amazement at their continued existence is surpassed only by the same of the The Nakhichevan Autonomous Republic. Sooner or later, the Israelis, the Palestinians, and possibly even some of their neighbors are going to have to realize that they're destined to either stand together or fall separately.

They can't anhilate one another without WMD, which would destroy the very land they want for themselves. They're going to have to come to terms with one another and drop the borders, and I know dang well that that will take the better part of a century- probably as a result of one of the two religions involved being undermined, or else by a dramatic political shift in the region.

The American South West isn't entirely unanalogous despite differences. America can't and wouldn't try to get the Mexicans out, the Mexicans can't get America out- tensions aren't that bad, but there are people who dont see it that way, and there's no promise that tensions won't get bad as demographics shift. But what are we gonna do? We've got a good thing going here in America and we can burn it all down to spite people for being different, or we can keep enjoying it.

The Israelis and the Palestinians are going to have to decide that they'd rather live well and serve God in their own lives without worrying about the guy next door, because they're never going to have anything if they choose to keep burning it down.

Already gone bad.

news.bbc.co.uk...

Sunday, 1 January 2006, 00:35 GMT

Two Palestinians killed in Gaza

Nice summary Carlos. Try mine.

Palestinian security sources told the Reuters news agency that the two dead men - and another man who was injured - were militants. One was said to have belonged to al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, which is part of Mr Abbas' Fatah group.

There have also been Palestinian attacks in Gaza. Of course somehow those are probably Israel's fault.

So what do you know- the Truce is over and Israel has gone right to work defending itself against the poor oppressed Palestinian people who just want their land back and would never dream of trying to kill Israelis for being infidels.

These people have got to change guys. Israel isn't the one trying to wipe Palestine off the map. They have done wrong at points obviously. Lebanon didn't go so well for example. The fact remains though that Israel has shed blood sweat and tears to not destroy the Palestinians without compromiing their own right to exist.

The mindset of the Palestinian side has to change, and simultaneously Israel must then change their perspective on the Palestinians and stop letting them sabotage the peace process by retaliating- HOWEVER Israel can only make that shift when the Palestinians begin a sincere effort as well.

Originally posted by pieman
i don't have a clue, but your a f***ing expert, right?

YOU are the one who used the nasty language about not
having a clue .... and YES after reading what you said and
the solid information posted here, I say that you really do
need to read more and modify your position to come more
in line with the facts.

BTW - potty mouth will get you nowhere and it doesn't
intimidate. It just makes me .... and

Originally posted by marg6043
since then Israel can not achieve peace.

Hi marg. Happy New Year. (still LOVE your avatars!)

Israel should have had peace back at the Camp David talks
that President Clinton had. Israel gave the Palestinians 95%
of what they wanted. The only thing Hamas didn't fully get was
that Israel wanted shared control of Jerusalem with them.
Arafat turned peace down because he threw a tantrum and
demanded all of Jerusalem. Peace could have been achieved,
and it was Israel making all the concessions. Hamas wouldn't
allow it.

the historical facts of Israel, Palestine and the
Arab migration to palestine is just a big mess.

THAT is an understatement! VERY true. One big freak'n mess.
And I think the greater part of the world is tired of it. Even the
Muslims (except for Jordan) can't stand the Palestinians. They
have treated them like dirt and kicked them out of their own
countries. The Muslims only pull out the Palestinian card when
it suits them.

One big freakn' mess that the world is tired of.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Uh, yes, it was theirs to give away, Stu. Very much so. You see, any other time when a country takes land after they are attacked, it is theirs. Regardless of the fact that the Gaza strip was taken after Israel was attacked for no cause by her enemies, there has always been a Jewish presence there, and I do not mean one of a nomadic existence.

Now, as I said, after the act of kindness, after the Israelis gave the "Palestinians" Gaza, to include water purification capabilities and green houses for their benefit, the "Palestinians" respond by launching Quassam rockets at, among other places, Ashkelon, an important industial town.

I suggest you stop being the bigot and realize that Israel is not the attacker. Try and spread your "unbiasness" to those who really deserve it.

Thank you for your time, and with warmest regards,

TC

You mean the Palastinians should be greatfull and thankfull? So if your country was invaded tomorow you would have no problem giving away your house to the new invaders? Im finding it hard to see your logic there.

What kindness has the majority of the jews showed the Palastinians? They demolished most there houses before moving, cut the water off the the greenhouses which they "give" them causing the harvests to die, they deny the majority travel outside.

I guess some people will always see Israel as the innocent victim all the time no matter how evil they treat the Palastinians or how many international laws they defy.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

BTW - The 'very small Palestinian uprising' is not 'very small'.
Statistically it's rather large and it's not an 'uprising'... it's
terrorism and murder and it's an invasion of a recognized
soverign nation - Israel.

Tell me that was sarcasm, because it was damm funny if it was, Most of the jews in Israel have come there pretty recently from europe the arabs there have been there much longer so its hardly invasion is it? The jews in Israel are the source of all israels problems, Qassam rockets are harmless compared to the helicopters or artillery being fired onto the land which Israel has so kindly "given" back.

Originally posted by HiddenReality
The jews in Israel are the source of all israels problems ..

Tell me that was sarcasm, because it was damm funny if it was.

As far as the 'history' that you posted ... Israel is a soverign nation,
recognized by the UN as such. It matters not when the Jewish
people arrived. At this time, it is recognized by the world as soverign.

As far as you saying that the Jews booted out the Muslims ...
best go back and reread everything that has been posted.
The Muslims and the Jews have been going back and forth
over this land for thousands and thousands of years. They've
been booting each other. You can't just go back to the early
1900's. Gotta' go back thousands of years. But ... it really
doesn't matter anyhow. Israel is a soverign nation. It is the
ONLY Jewish nation in the world. The Muslims have dozens
of homelands. The Jews only have one.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by HiddenReality
The jews in Israel are the source of all israels problems ..

Tell me that was sarcasm, because it was damm funny if it was.

As far as the 'history' that you posted ... Israel is a soverign nation,
recognized by the UN as such. It matters not when the Jewish
people arrived. At this time, it is recognized by the world as soverign.

So when the UN is backing up a statement you are making they are legitmate and there opinion matters, but when the UN is telling Israel its Walls are illegal its opinion is pointless? The world recognizing Israel as a sovereign nation does not mean it is right for it to exist there.

Just because the jews wanted to live there it doesnt mean they had the right to make the Palastinians Prisoners in Walled ghettos.

and btw im not saying the Jews should be thrown out of Israel, i just think they should release the control of the country they stole back to its rightfull owners.

[edit on 1-1-2006 by HiddenReality]

According to a survey of Palestinian opinion financed by Norway's Ministry of Foreign Affairs (pdf, 102 pages), 57% believe the intifada should stop. But also,

• 69% of Palestinians see violent action and suicide attacks against Israeli civilians as legitimate
  
• 74% do not suooprt the use of force by Palestinian security services against those who break the calm.
  
  
• 65% support El-Qaeda actions in the U.S. and Europe
  
• 32% support El-Qaeda actions in Iraq
  
• 13% support El-Qaeda actions in Jordan.
  

And as truce ends,



The program about Jaffa opens with a revision of history, by casting the ancient Canaanites as Arabs. By doing this, the more than 3,000 years of Jewish history in the area are pre-dated by a fabricated Arab history. (The Arab Conquest actually took place in the seventh century of the Common Era.)

Jaffa, a part of Tel Aviv, is defined as a Palestinian city, and all of Israels coastal cities, Acre, Haifa, Caesarea, Ashdod, Ashkelon and Jaffa, are said to be situated in what is known "today as Palestine".

According to this PA program, Israel is already non-existent.

Originally posted by marg6043
I was brought up believing that the "Land of the Palestines" was given to the Israelis to take it away from their original inhabitants by the Hebrew God.

Correct me if I am wrong, and since then Israel can not achieve peace.

But then again I was borough up to believe that the reason Israel will never has peace is because they killed Jesus.

Geez Marg, that's not religion, that's misinformation.

God gave the land to the the Jews in exchange for them following their covenant with Him. They had peace and prosperity till they broke the covenant. But I do believe God promised them also, if they strayed but returned, their rights to that land would be restored.

As for the peace issue, again, that goes back to the covenant. It has nothing to do with the Jews being responsible for the death of Jesus. Their may have been some Jews involved, but the entire nation of chosen people did not have a hand in it.

I personally see this whole issue in this light. The nation was restored to the chosen people, (by man more so than God) but the covenant is still not being kept with God, therefore the strife remains. The fulfillment of that covenant is not beyond reach though at this time

Regardless, the attitude of the majority of Palestinians at this point leaves much to be desired in resolving this conflict.