Intelligent Evolution

((I quoted this to make it smaller. I touch on some points then move on and come back a paragraph or two later. It helps to read it all. If you dont want to read all the examples and questions I pose about ID and evolution just jump down to my summation.

I dont give any clear cut answers, I just point out that neither theory is complete. These are simply some things that come to my mind when thinking about this topic.)))

[moderator edit to remove quote codes , please don't use quotes for anything other than indicating what is being quoted -nygdan]

Ok so we have intelligent design and evolution. Two competing theorys trying to win the hearts and minds of our children. Obviously theres no concretre answer to the question of which is right because we simpy dont know enough about the universe to make that claim. They are just theorys. And what makes it worse is theres more than one of each. Intel. people have aliens and god and collective conciousness. Evo. people have long evolution and quick evolution. Theres evididence backing every theory up and refuting every other theory.

When explaining a particular theory you inexoriably bump into other fields of science. As anyone can see biology wouldnt exist with out geology and chemistry and astronomy and so on. You cannot exclude one thing from the universe and call it the same universe. And it is the same with these theorys. The most common sciences bumped into is Physics and Astronomy - The Big Bang/Creation of the universe and this planet. Its just the bigger part of creation/design. The Big Bang Theory is of course just a theory which alot of people have a prolem with as well. And there are several possible explanations for the Creation of the universe including Devine design.

When thinking about intelligent design one has to look at the Earth its self, for without the Earth where would God drop off all his little creations.
The Earth is a very unique planet, and as far as we can tell the only with with intelligence covering it at this time. Was this an act of cosmic evolution of our solar system or design?

(Like I said we can talk about God or aliens when talking about ID, I prefer to use God. Mostly because I think aliens are a techno-oriented persons desription of the same phenomenon thats been seen for ages. And what once was described as a chariot wheel is now a saucer. And what was once and angel is now an alien. Both are the same higher dimensional thought that is manifested by our own conscious observance as what we are used to seeing in this lower material dimension.)

Firstly the Earth has a moon. A large moon. Infact an oddly gigantic moon, compared to other planets with moons. The Moon contains material older than anything else in our solar system. Where did this moon come from? The Moon holds the Earth at a particular tilt that is benificial to life. With out the Moon we would swing sideways and life would suck. The Moon is at such a precise distance and exact size that during an eclipse the Sun's corona is the only thing visible. Why isnt the moon closer or farther? Why does only one side of the Moon face us at ALL times? Isnt this strange. It is for astronomers. No other moon behaves as ours. Pluto, the only other planet with a Moon type of moon is also unique. Its moon stays in the same exact spot in the sky every single day of every single year forever. According to astronauts the moons gravity is much stronger than expected. We were blowing up probes until we figured this one out. Actually the Russians got it first and after a successful probe of the moon the quit altogether. The moon rang for 3 hours after a rocket booster fell onto its surface. Rang like a hollow bell. The "oceans" on the moon contain heavy elements not found on Earth. And the dark areas are warm to the touch. The Moon according to some theorys is a prime example of an Intelligently Designed object used to aid the survival of life on Earth. Like refelcting sunlight to photosynthetic early life forms even at night.

So now we have to ask and answer whether the Moon is natural or designed. If it was Designed it would obviously be made for life on Earth. And then it leads us to wonder if life on Earth was designed as well. If the moon is natural then we have to answer why its the oddest natural thing in our solar system.

The Earth its self works in cycles. Every 62 billion years, give or take 2b., theres a masive extinction of all species on Earth. The bible tells us of a Great Flood almost wiping out mankind. Now we have to wonder if these seemingly natural disasters are the work of God. In Revelations two flaming mountains are thrown to the Earth (asteroids) not to mention 7 viles filled with the wrath of God and so on. Many natural disaster type of things are attributed to God. Plagues, volcanoes, comets, etc.

One thing evolution can never explain is why there are so many different types of man. The Bible tells us of a time when Angels (Seraphim) came down the Earth and mingled with men and even took some humans as wives and gave birth to a race of giants known as Nephilim(These storys can be found in aprocryful books excluded from the average bible). The Angels taught us how to read the stars and make medicene and farm and make weapons and jewlery. Apparently God wasnt all too happy with the Angels spilling the beans (Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil maybe?).
- Evolution tell us the early man was stupid and could barely make a tool to scratch his ass. However a hammer was found that was like 1,000,000 years old and totally beyond what evolutionits told us we could have made back then. A Man made bridge from an Indian story was found with satillite imagry. It dates to 1,700,000 ago. And according the the tale, it should be about 1,6900,000 yeas old. Coincidently its underwater and made of stone. Theres no way it could have been seen and written about until now. Also the story has Krishna (think Jesus) making the stones float so the tribe could cross and kill an evil king on the other side.
- Tiny people, nicknamed Hobbits, were found with advanced tools evolutionists told us would be impossible for small brained pre-modern-humans to have crafted.

Back to the Nephilim. Now there have been giants uncovered from all over the world. And a human dating to 3,000,000 years. In the bible stories the Nephilim were becomming too powerful and killing God's Men. So God wiped out the Earth and started over. And this happened several times. Its very possible the the last flood was one of many, and that God created the current man in his image. Perhaps a little different than older Man. Cro-Magnims (sp?) had larger brains than us. Why would we devolve? Evolutionists cant explain races of Giants or de-evolution.

I've heard that there are some strange animals more closely related to Man then any monkey is. Like lemurs and stuff. Why did we evolved from a lemur and not a monkey or ape? Why are there still apes if we evolved from apes. Why arnt there any almost-human species still alive today? We are told that compitition with modern humans wiped them out. Did we make an entire other race of humans go extinct like the do-do bird? Did God kill them in a flood?

The Observer and Conscious creation. I want to get away from anthropology for now and focus on the physics of God. Modern science, mostly quantum and particle physics, seems to be constantly reaffirming what mystics have been saying for thousands of years. The observer, consiousness and intelligence, has been put back into science. (I read Holographic Universe and highly reccomend it. It discusses a new theory based on the holographic model of the universe. Some things I discuss may come from the book, but please note I read about physics from other sources as well.)

Lets take the building blocks of everything on Earth. We know now that we are all made of atoms and that atoms are made of sub atomic particles. And these particles in turn are made of quarks and they may be made out of infinetly small vibrating strings of energy. I wont go into string theory here. Particles as some of you may know are both Waves and Particles. They 'become' particles only when observed. This is seen in the electron-slit experiment where electrons passing thru 2 slits act as a wave unless you actually look at the experiment when they all of a sudden act as particles. All matter is actually a collision of waves, wave interference, and a 'cloud' of possibilities until observed. Our own consciousness is what makes our everyday reality come into existance. An electron cannot be fully observed. If you observe its position you cannot obverse its speed, and vise-versa. We are made of atoms surrounded by electrons and yet we cant even explain them.

If you are wondering what particle physics has to do with creation, keep reading. Ok, there is a certain particle that was thought to exist but never seen. Finally scientists found it here and in Britain i believe. Anyways the particle one lab saw was the same as the particle the other lab saw, only it acted totally different! Depending on who was observing the particle, it could behave one way or another. Now out side the lab, think about Asprin. You may have heard that asprin helps with heart attacks. Take one everyday, or when you think you might have a heart attack. Its been proven to help. Only asprin is totally useless in England! The same drug has no positive effects when related to heart attack sufferers. In America there was alot of commercials for a time that told us about the whole asprin heart link. However they seem to have not got this advertising in England where no effect was observed. Our own consciouness made asprin work for weak hearts, and it makes particles appear that act depending on how we think. (There are some great examples of how to think about the observer being part of the equation, but this article is too long already.)

Sir Arthur Eddington wrote: "Physics is the study of the structure of consciousness. The stuff of the world is mindstuff."

Waves of everything is spead out everywhere in the universe. This explains why there can be knowledge of something somewhere else, or in antother time, as seen in remote viewing experiments. How a yogi in India can make object appear out of thin air. And many other oddites of life. The Point particle can appear anywhere on the wave. Everything you see as solid is only solid where and how it is because thats what your consciousness is choosing to see, to observe. Sister Particles have shown to be able to communicate over any distance in an instant, with no regaurd to the laws of light speed. It was realized that this may because what we think is 2 particles is really one appearing in 2 areas on its wave. Particles can be observed existing in two places at once. when a particle communicates with another particle, which happens between every particle and everyother particle in existance all the time, it send a photon. The photon goes to the second particle with a message and a return message is sent. This happens instantaniously. There is no distance to be traveld between and two particles. Which means the entire universe exists in every point in the universe. Our consiousness is what makes "reality" appear.

Now if our concisouness is capable of actual factual creation.. What about God? "In the beginning was the Word." One area of intelligent design that doesnt erase evolution is that God is in everything. The supreme intelligence may be spread out over every thing in the universe. If we use the bing bang model for a second we can easily think about everything in the universe coexisting at one point in space, along with God. Infact this one point of extreme energy may actully have been God. After the resulting Bang, God spread out everywhere and became material. If you read the above you can now think of God as existing everywhere in the universe.

There are many studies in the field of Collective Consciousness. It seems to be real. At least a partial description of perhaps something higher. On some level every one is connected. Perhaps its this collective consciousness, a.k.a. God?, thats driving the creation of our world. It started off small but eventually we got to where we are today.

When I look at evolution and the idea the perhaps the universe started off as a thought, or as the bible says: The Word; I think about how there does seem to be an underlying plan to it all.

Why do we look like we do? Why do we walk upright but still have spines made for walking bent over. What about the porportions of our body parts. Why dont we have wings?

- If you look at the ratio of the human body you will see the Golden Ratio abound in it. Theres a web site that has description of how all our bone lengths and facial features fit perfectly with this ratio. Im not a mathmatician so im not going to get into it, but it makes for an interesting read. The same site gives examples of how this ratio is found everywhere in nature. The Golden Ratio makes a spiral with the same ratio that is found in the faces of sunflowers, the shape of our galaxy, our finger prints, the spiral shape in shells and so on. Why is this ratio in so many things? Is this a sign of chaos or of order? I read recently a nautalus shell was found to not have the exact ratio, but no person has a perfectly symmetrical face either. Its like theres a plan for us that we just arnt at yet. A Sign of evolution? I thinks its more likely a sign that the idea of our world exists in higher dimensions and what we experience is only the 3 physical dimensions of that idea. And obviously something gets lost in the translation.

The entire universe is held together by a combination of physical laws which are in perfect harmony. If we change one thing, like the strong nuclear force, stars wouldnt be able to form and life wouldnt be possible in a frozen universe. The balance is so delecate, but why? It would take an extreme amount of universes being made until one like ours came along. And then if one thing was a tad different, life wouldnt be able to grow. Is the universe its self a construct? Or is it an extremely lucky evolution of the cosmos?

- What about the physical ability of flight? Mosquiotes, Birds, Pteradactyls, Fish, Bats, and Flying squirrels all have some degree of flight. Why? Im sure I never heard about flying fish evolving from mosquitoes. Or birds evolving from ancient bees. Why does flight pop up in so many places? Even Humans who havent evolved the ability to fly have been able to attatch themselves to things from our own intelligent design which enable us to fly. Is this a sign that there is an underlying reality that manifests its self in physical reality in various places? Or that ancient single-celled organisms could fly?

A great example of evolution is the squirrels at the Grand Canyon. The same species was separated by an ever growing river until they could no longer mate with the squirrels on the other side. Eventually they became 2 different species, and cannot mate if put back together. Obviously they changed over time. Will this ever happen to humans? What about remote tribes of people?

Another thing I just thought of about intelligence.. uneducated tribes of people living separated from the average person sees the world differently. These "savages" score higher on ESP tests. They havent been to public school and told over and over again that God is Dead. Our society is quickly disabling our ability to wittness miracles. Jesus would not enter a certain village and when asked why, he said that he could not preform miracles there, because the people there didnt belive in him. I think this is a very profound statement, especially when the walking on water is taken into account. The beliver walked out onto the sea with Jesus while the non beliver drowned. As we have seen our very intelligence is capable of making particles appear, it may make miracles appear as well.

If we take intelligence and our own conscious observance out of the picture we are left with a world that could very possibly cease to function. We act as God in the creation of our everyday lives. Perhaps we contain a small bit of God or as we read, since everything can be seen as existing simultainiously everywhere, God is here right now helping us create the world we see.

In summation: I believe a new theory needs to be formed that includes intelligence, the observer, the mathematical precision of life, oddities like the moon and miracles, and the ever changing quality of the universe. Teachers should stop teaching evolution as a law. They need to tell the students to find their own answers. Our teachers should have given us the path instead of the desination. Intelligent design should not be taught in school any more than evolution as the be all end all answer. However if Evolution and ID are taught as two of many theorys, with out bias or mocking of religion, the students can come to their own conclusions outside of the class room.

EDIT: After re-reading this twice - I post it only to find a spelling error in the fifth word. Forgive me im not perfect and possibly dyslexic. Omg theres so many typos... well good luck reading it.

[edit on 10/21/2005 by ViolatoR]

[edit on 21-10-2005 by Nygdan]

Originally posted by ViolatoR
In summation: I believe a new theory needs to be formed that includes intelligence, the observer, the mathematical precision of life, oddities like the moon and miracles, and the ever changing quality of the universe. Teachers should stop teaching evolution as a law.

Evolution is both scientific fact and theory.. this is why it is taught in schools as fact however knowledge is still incomplete.

They need to tell the students to find their own answers. Our teachers should have given us the path instead of the desination.

Agreed.

Intelligent design should not be taught in school any more than evolution as the be all end all answer.

ID and evolution are not comparable. ID is not a scientific theory.. it is an assumption.

However if Evolution and ID are taught as two of many theorys, with out bias or mocking of religion, the students can come to their own conclusions outside of the class room.

ID could never be taught without religious bias.. it implies god and requires students to have faith to consider it a viable alternative as there are no scientific facts that support it [why it is not a 'science']. Philosophy/theology class is where the subject of ID belongs [and only if parents want it taught].

Competent teachers teach about science first - what makes a theory, why it's a theory, why theories survive and why theories die. Then they teach evolution as a theory. This is the correct way of teaching science.

Zip

Originally posted by Zipdot
Competent teachers teach about science first - what makes a theory, why it's a theory, why theories survive and why theories die. Then they teach evolution as a theory. This is the correct way of teaching science.

Zip

True but they'd teach the evidence [fossils etc] as fact.. what would it take for the theory itself to be considered fact?

Evolutionary theory can not ever be taught as fact, no matter what kind of evidence comes up. Theories allways remain theories, whether its the theory of gravity or atomic theory, etc.

The fact of evolution is that it occurs, that allele frequencies in populations change over time, thats a fact (without getting into discussions about whether anything is actually a fact, etc)

Theres decent with modification which is proven. But when some critter appears out of nowhere they say its fast evolution. Then we hear it takes millions of years to evolve. Its like the teachers are running around in the dark with a flashlight seeing only glimpses of the whole picture.

Intelligent design my not be more than hope or belief, but intelligent creation is real. Without intelligence to observe the universe it wouldnt exist. Like the 'ol tree falling in the woods idea. So intelligence is necessary for existance, an existance which includes evolving species.

Take the rainbow. What makes it appear? Well you need some moisture in the air, usually after rain. also, you need white light to refract off of the clear water. But you also need an observer. If take take any one of these 3 elements away, the rainbow would cease to exist.

How does the rainbow get seen? Well you need eyes that pick up certain light frequencies, of a certain spectrum, and a brain to interpret what it sees. So you brain makes that rainbow appear. If you move closer or to the side, the rainbow moves too. Its not a solid structure existing out there apart from you, it exists only in you mind. Two people looking in the same area of moisture dont see the same rainbow. Because their's exists in their mind. If they walked towards it, it would move for them, but not for you.

How about smelling a rose? What your actually smelling is the fragrance of the rose. So where is this fragrance? Is it on the rose? If so how could it be in your nose too? Is it in the air between? So if you move the rose it will still be in the air? The fragrance is something created solely in your mind. And if the beautiful fragrances in life exist only in your mind, why is the rose necessary at all?

"Intelligence" is what makes anything real. Including evolution. Im saying that a Godly intelligence, universal to all beings, is driving forward a plan for the universe, a plan which takes time to unfold. Evolutuion may simply be steps in the plan, and not a random "natural" event. Since the whole universe co-exists in any spot in it, as the mystics have been saying for thousands of years, and physicysts have confirmed, then it would be a perfect explanation for the omnipotence of a God, or Super Intelligence. This intelligence would permeate any "real" or "solid" thing in the universe and force its creation in to what ever it chose. Because the reality we see is the one we choose to see. And since we are inseperable, acording to physics, we are all creating our own universe, or evolving it, whatever word you want to use.

Then teachers who accept this idea would have to teach 'evoltion by intelligence.' Instead of the current idea that nature is God, and intelligence is a random thing that popped out of the universe for no real reason except chaos. And chaos itself is a whole 'nother discussion, since a computers can never generate totally random numbers and other examples of how chaos is really just a higher order we cant comprehend, its a bad explanation of why intelligence exists in what appears to be an empty universe.

I personally believe there is room for both theories. I don't think anyone has hit the nail on the head when it comes to figuring out what created us and what our purpose is. We all have our opinions and they are just that...opinions.

My personal belief is that energy is what created us and that energy is in each and everyone of us. That energy is neither good nor bad and does not know love nor hate. That energy is completely devoid of feelings and human characteristics. However, I do believe that energy does make its way back to evolve consciousness collectively, not individually.

Interesting string. Enjoying the read.

Originally posted by ViolatoR
Theres decent with modification which is proven.

This is evolution.

But when some critter appears out of nowhere they say its fast evolution. Then we hear it takes millions of years to evolve.

This is not what it says in the scientific literature. These are popularized accounts of whats actually going on in science.

Without intelligence to observe the universe it wouldnt exist.

So before man there was no universe? What of these things that indicate that there was??

Like the 'ol tree falling in the woods idea.

There is no answer to the tree falling in the wood question.
Its a philosophical imponderable, like 'what happens when an irresistable force meets an immovable object' or 'why is there something rather than nothing'

So intelligence is necessary for existance,

Intelligence is necessary to perceive existence intelligently.

Take the rainbow. What makes it appear? Well you need some moisture in the air, usually after rain. also, you need white light to refract off of the clear water. But you also need an observer.

The scattered light exists whether its observed or not. This is like saying that the universe goes invisible when I close my eyes.

If take take any one of these 3 elements away, the rainbow would cease to exist.

If you remove the observer, then the observation of the rainbow disappears, nothign else.

So you brain makes that rainbow appear.

Your brain interprets information comming to it from beyond it.

So where is this fragrance?

Its a mental construction spured by an actual phsyical thing, that is the chemicals that make up the trigger for the olfactory sense.

"Intelligence" is what makes anything real. Including evolution. Im saying that a Godly intelligence, universal to all beings, is driving forward a plan for the universe,[/quiote]
This is completely different than the above examples tho. In the above, the observer 'makes' the object real, because without the observer there is no perception of it. There's no unfolding of a plan or will.

Evolutuion may simply be steps in the plan, and not a random "natural" event.

Sure, it could be, but there's no way to show that other than to beleive it.

Since the whole universe co-exists in any spot in it, as the mystics have been saying for thousands of years, and physicysts have confirmed,

What the deuce?

then it would be a perfect explanation for the omnipotence of a God, or Super Intelligence.

How is it an explanation? Its merely stating that that is the cause. Thats not an explanation. Its like saying 'water is wet because thats what water is'. Not much of an explanation, certainly not a useable one. But if you look at the scientific properties that give it these characteristics that cause this wetness sensation, then you can manipulate that senstation, you can predict those characteristics in other materials, and you can control those chartacteristics. Thats a better sort of explanation no? You'd have to really understand somethign to do all that right?

and intelligence is a random thing that popped out of the universe for no real reason except chaos.

Science does not, and really it shoudl not, try to answer big ethical and moralistics questions like 'what is the reason and prupose to life', thats up to the individual.

[And chaos itself is a whole 'nother discussion, since a computers can never generate totally random numbers

? So? What's it matter that some particular machine that man has made can't replicate pure and complete chaos? My car can't do it, neither can a screwdriver.

its a bad explanation of why intelligence exists in what appears to be an empty universe.

Evolution does not explain things like intelligence or other adapatations by saying that they popped up for no particular reason out of chaos. The random element in evolution is with respect to mutations, in that mutations happen in a statistically random fashion, such that merely because an organism could make use out of a particular mutation doesn't affect its tendency to have that mutation.