Do Ex-Christians and Non-Christians get a chance at heaven...

according to Christianity?

Hmmm... *taptaptap* This one is a real thinker, yes? We know the Bible tells us about how to secure eternal life in this lifetime (U2U me if you'd like details on this), but what about those who reject, never fully hear/understand, or don't hear the good news at all?

You're thoughts please. I'll save my assessment until later.

Pray, train, study,
God bless.

[edit on 18-10-2005 by saint4God]

To clarify for further replies:

Are we supposed to reply based on the currently accepted Christian doctrine teachings, or can we use our personal beliefs too?

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
To clarify for further replies:

Are we supposed to reply based on the currently accepted Christian doctrine teachings, or can we use our personal beliefs too?

Good question. As an assessment from scripture, is specifically what I was looking for.

[edit on 18-10-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Good question. As an assessment from scripture, is specifically what I was looking for.

Hypathetically. I'd say yes. I know most interprite 'the only way to heaven is through me' as being you HAVE to believe and worship him.. it's not that specific. It might be simply following the teachings.

[edit on 18-10-2005 by riley]

Originally posted by riley
Hypathetically.

I'd say yes. I know most interprite 'the only way to heaven is through me' as being you HAVE to believe and worship him.. it's not that specific. It might be simply following the teachings.

I know a lot of people who feel the same way. The questions I have though are:

1.) How many teachings must one follow in order to qualify for heaven?
2.) What about the passage that says, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this is not from yourselves, it is a gift from God - not by works, so that no one can boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9) ?

Glad to see you around again.

[edit on 18-10-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
I know a lot of people who feel the same way. The questions I have though are:

1.) How many teachings must one follow in order to qualify for heaven?

Is ten the minumum?

2.) What about the passage that says, "For it is by grace you have been saved,

'Grace' is interpritive.. it could be a description of Jesus' charactor and that had the ability to acertain the nature of someone.. not nessarily in the context of a doorman letting patrons into heaven on the basis of whether or not they are wearing a crucifix.

either through faith - and this is not from yourselves, it is a gift from God - not by works, so that no one can boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9) ?

This is even more vague. 'Faith from yourselves?' if this faith in god is innate.. there would be no need to convert anybody. Faith can also be another word for 'hope'.. and it doesn't say in god specifically.. it might mean eachother or the future. Without learning ancient hebrew it's hard to know for sure.

Glad to see you around again.

You too.

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by saint4God
I know a lot of people who feel the same way. The questions I have though are:

1.) How many teachings must one follow in order to qualify for heaven?

Is ten the minumum?

You'd think it'd tell us if it was important to salvation, yes?

Originally posted by riley

'Grace' is interpritive.. it could be a description of Jesus' charactor and that had the ability to acertain the nature of someone.. not nessarily in the context of a doorman letting patrons into heaven on the basis of whether or not they are wearing a crucifix.

Well, in John 3:16 he qualifies those who believe as saved. He actually goes further to talk about those who do not (John 3:18).

Originally posted by riley
This is even more vague. 'Faith from yourselves?' if this faith in god is innate.. there would be no need to convert anybody. Faith can also be another word for 'hope'.. and it doesn't say in god specifically.. it might mean eachother or the future. Without learning ancient hebrew it's hard to know for sure.

I don't recall reading you had to be a Hebrew scholar to be saved, but I do know it makes this distinction: "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that - and shudder" (James 2:19) whereas "Believe (trust) in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved..." Acts 16:31. This transference of trust from ourselves to Christ, is the key to opening the door to everlasting life.

The scripture is clear that salvation comes when a person accepts Jesus Christ as his LORD and Saviour. It really is that simple. Now there are some who believe that a person’s salvation can be lost. I looked into this in scripture and found the full evidence of the gospel seems to contradict this (but I could be wrong). I’m still of the belief that scripture supports God’s ability and desire to keep a man saved even if he or she walks in sin for a season. For the man who once claimed to be a believer in Jesus then renounces Him I think that person may very well be in big trouble if he was to die in that state.

The concept that seems to be supported most in my opinion (in this I could be wrong) is that a person who is truly saved will be kept by God and cannot then lose his salvation. If someone says, “I don’t believe in God anymore but I use to be a Christian” I would question whether or not that person was ever truly saved.

Let’s examine Queenannie38 for example. On one hand she denies the reality of Hell and eternal damnation but on the other hand she acknowledges Jesus Christ as her LORD and Saviour. She further stated that she was baptized into the Christian faith and believes that Jesus was indeed God in the flesh and that he died for her sins.

Is she a Christian even though she denies being a Christian? I’d say she is indeed a Christian although I only found this out yesterday. Her teachings on universalism are not biblical but I don’t recall having read anything in the Bible that says someone who doesn’t believe in Hell is going to go there.

God never intended His offered salvation to be something difficult to understand and overly complex. The simplest of minds can grasp the basic truth necessary to be saved from Hell and washed clean of sin. The growth that should follow from this point will validate the truth of that person’s belief in Jesus Christ.


In Christ,

James

I think anyone has a chance at heaven, we are all God's children, no matter how misguided we are, all thats necessary is to pick up a Bible, turn from the ways of the world, and have faith in the fact that Christ was your savior and that he can be again.

James, can't you just respect Queenannie's view of Hell and be happy with the fact that at least she accepts Christ? As a matter of fact, I've started to really think that we confuse Hell with the Lake of Fire at the end of the Tribulation a lot. I've been lead to believe recently that Hell really is not the endless torture chamber that many preach but more of a temporary limbo where the condemned wait until the judgment day. Afterall God didn't create Hell for humans to eternally suffer in, thats not what he wants IMO.

These are just my observations James, I'm not here to decieve anyone, I'm striving everyday to be a good and truthseeking person and live by the word of God and I think that's all that Annie is as well.

Why not just use all your energy to teach the love of God and the rewards for being faithful to him, I honestly think some of your comments may scare some of the curious away from salvation.

Peace,

Jim

[edit on 10/24/2005 by JKersteJr]

Originally posted by Machine
I’m still of the belief that scripture supports God’s ability and desire to keep a man saved even if he or she walks in sin for a season.

That 'season' of 'sin' is the duration of each of our earthly lives, James. My heart tells me that God's abilities are both boundless and incomprehensible--once God rescues a sheep, that sheep is safe and snug in the fold where they belong. Do you not recall the verses that say there is no chance of anyone or any force snatching anything out of God's hand?

For the man who once claimed to be a believer in Jesus then renounces Him I think that person may very well be in big trouble if he was to die in that state.

What difference do any so-called 'claims' have to do with who, what, and how they believe (in our LORD or otherwise)? That's not much more than lip-service--nothing to God but far too much for humans, as far as what counts as 'what really is.' What about the verses that say God knows what's in a man's heart? And that the tongue is a little member, full of iniquity? Words can make or break fortunes, sanity, and hope in this world--but to God our words mean nothing if they don't align with what He reads in our hearts.

Bottom line--we can't fool God.

The concept that seems to be supported most in my opinion (in this I could be wrong) is that a person who is truly saved will be kept by God and cannot then lose his salvation.

Truly--though--what's the point if He can't? What's to believe in if it's all up to us in the end, anyway? First to believe, then to toe the line at every moment until we die so we can avoid the death we hope to escape (or hell, if that's your preference)--how can that be considered 'truth' since it certainly doesn't set a person 'free.'
What does the bible say? Wouldn't you be able to find a sure answer within its wisdom--something far more certain that a 'concept that is supported' in your 'opinion?' How can you fairly and honestly promote the salvation message if you can't be sure what the limits are, if there are any, and those kinds of details--maybe just details, but these are the details others use when trying to make the right choice in their hearts in regard to God. They just want to know there is a reason to be sure of increased 'profit' on His road as compared to the worldly road--call it a consumer mindset, but nevertheless we are that way, and He made us and understands us well.

Even the tiniest out-workings in His plan for us consider even the most obscure pecularity of the human species--yet it is believed by most 'unsaved' that He is unreasonable, irrational, and that there is little more than 'a snowball's chance in hell' of even making Him throw us a fake smile when we finally arrive at His feet. Is God like that, truly? Does He want us to think such distancing characteristics are inherent to Him, and by extension, our own eternal selves--as we will be transformed into His image?

If someone says, “I don’t believe in God anymore but I use to be a Christian” I would question whether or not that person was ever truly saved.

Why do you waste your time questioning such matters in regard to others? Do you really think that God wills you to think along those lines?
Someday I will let you in on a little secret about what's behind those kind of statements that you 'what if-ed' above. Well, that is, if you ever ask me to tell you.

Something I will say, though, is that none of are saved right now--we have not been rescued from death yet if we still live in that regard. We might believe in the earnest we've been given as insurance of that promise being true--but until we each get to the place of crossing-over-the-sea, we are not actually 'saved.' Don't forget what Paul said in that regard--and I would wager my entire wealth of meager worldly possessions on my conviction that if anyone ever walked to the guillotine with a spring in their step and a smile on their face--it was Paul. That's how much I am certain he trusted in the promise given, but even at that, his writings reflect that he didn't count himself as possessing the prize until he reached the other side.

Let’s examine Queenannie38 for example.

How about 'let's not,' James!

I am not a lab specimen or some freakish anomaly of nature fit for your ad-lib classroom demonstrations. Don't talk about me when I'm not around, unless you have something gracious to say. You know that 'neighbor thing' I'm always harping about, the 'love, love, love' one? Guess what? I'm your neighbor!

On one hand she denies the reality of Hell and eternal damnation but on the other hand she acknowledges Jesus Christ as her LORD and Saviour.

Can we set the record straight, here, about what I might supposedly 'deny' or acknowledge, blah blah blah--since I'm here, now, too?

First off I don't 'deny' anything-- deny is defined as 'to assert the negative of an accepted or alleged fact or statement' first and foremost, and so it may qualify as 'denial' in your opinion, but opinion about someone's rejection of your opinion is nothing more than opinion, and as such, should not be publicly discussed unless both parties are in agreement and are present for the discussion. One cannot deny opinion or unproven possibilities, and only a fool denies the truth--and since I'm not a fool any more than you are---let's leave words like 'denial' in the courtroom where they belong.

Furthermore, what you so confidently declare as 'hell' is a hodge-podge of traits mentioned in the bible about a few different things (such as the grave we bury dead humans in, Tartaros--where some certain angels await verdict, and the lake of fire--which is the consuming fire of the Holy Spirit)--not at all what could be considered even factual as far as pure scholarly linquistics is concerned. Therefore the question of its 'reality' is a mute one, at best--and the same also applies to what you aver is 'eternal damnation.' You don't understand the Greek usage and application of the word 'aion' or the idea of what 'damnation' truly meant, at the time it was used in the New Testament. It means, essentially, the decision, function, affect, outcome, et al., that results from 'crime' when the offender is called to the judge's bench. It can mean 'capital punishment', by all rights---but that doesn't make it always, or by necessity, represent the most severest of penalties--punishment and retribution comes in all sizes, and a fair and righteous judge never orders them out of proportion to their causative transgression. And we are told just that, in various parts of scripture, in direct reference to the nature of God's judgments.
'Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?'

She further stated that she was baptized into the Christian faith and believes that Jesus was indeed God in the flesh and that he died for her sins.

Specifically, what I said was that I was baptized in a christian church by the person in the office of Pastor at the time. Alvin Covington, to be
exact, and the church was Central Christian Church--not more than about 5 blocks from where I type this right now. The present pastor happens to live right across the street, these days, too--which was a strange yet divine blessing in disguise for my mom's spiritual well-being--another story you'd have to ask for if you were interested.

Anyway, I was not 'baptized into the christian faith'--I was baptized into Christ, Himself--that is, buried with Him in His death with faith (trust) in His promise that God would one day raise me up the same way He resurrected our LORD. I did it with the intention of aligning toward Him and Him only--not any certain group of people based on the fact they go by His name. If they end up in the same place--then we're all in the right place--because we are all in Him. But we can't be sure unless we know first where we are going, and recognize our arrival by degrees. At some point, then, we can take notice of who else is there, too.

Is she a Christian even though she denies being a Christian?

It doesn't matter James! Who cares? Does God? I daresay NO. To confess or deny the name of our LORD has little or nothing to do with calling one's self a 'christian.'

I’d say she is indeed a Christian although I only found this out yesterday.

I am not a christian, James--you persist on applying what you feel is a wonderful designation, but I see as nothing short of 'defamation of character.' If you want to call yourself that, then who am I to say you are or aren't? It's neither here nor there, to me--I can see what fruits you grow--if you tell me you're an apple tree but I see without a doubt you have peaches from your limbs--what do you think I will consider the more reliable source of information?

Her teachings on universalism are not biblical but I don’t recall having read anything in the Bible that says someone who doesn’t believe in Hell is going to go there.

Conversely, it would seem even more equitable to say that I have never read that God will concoct a hell for someone who truly believes there is such a place (for other people) in order to demonstrate what 'righteousness' really means (for those who believe in such an unrighteous 'god')
So good new for both of us, huh? Bully for us.

God never intended His offered salvation to be something difficult to understand and overly complex. The simplest of minds can grasp the basic truth necessary to be saved from Hell and washed clean of sin.

If it were than simple, and easy to accept--then why is not the whole world in agreement right now? At the rate of success they seemed to be having in Acts--you'd think that 2000 years would be more than ample time to put an end to the work of conversion? As well as putting to naught doctrinal/denominational controversies and such?

Moreover, did Christ ever say it would be something easily understood and conveyed to the rest of the world? Did He promise an easy and glamorous job or did He warn of a thankless (materially) never-ending task that would likely be brought to an end at the same moment some sort of cruel execution (by those who felt the were doing God a service) was inflicted in order to extinguish the light that will not be hid in those He called to His service?

The growth that should follow from this point will validate the truth of that person’s belief in Jesus Christ.

Is 'validation' the same as 'justification?' Who, exactly, makes such a call regarding someone's so-called belief in Jesus Christ? What kind of belief? That He lived? That He died? Or is it all about the fact that He lived again, forever?



'Be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.'

You handle yourself quite well!

Machine, this whole thing about hell and punishment is what keeps me from being a Christian. It is so...life insurance sales...government terror alert feel...it just seems so unspiritual to me. I want a religion full of love...intelect and understanding something peacful.

Why do it. Why cant you sell it on its good points? Its merrits, why it is a great way to have meaning to the LIFE we are living, and not the death we are dying.

In the Lord and Lady,
Brian

I must ask again. I know I posted this before but I never get an answer from anyone. What about Muslims,Hindus,etc etc if one must accept Jesus as lord and saviour?

Ever since I was a very young boy I thought about this over and over. Like you know how there is the 2nd coming and all what would this do to all the other religions?

Also I saw a Rabbi in a book store and he was telling me how they read the Torah as bible and the Torah does not follow Jesus. Does anyone know why Jews do this? I mean I would think Jews would be the last not to belive in Jesus.

Sorry this maybe simple but I am not very familar with it and I have not read the whole bible yet to be able to answer my questions on the realted subject.

Please reply.

Well, my position is admittedy biased (which makes me more honest than you unless you admit the same), but...

For Jesus' "sacrifice" to atone for our sins, it must be self sufficient. Otherwise, it is not just his sacrifice that atones, but his sacrifice combined with something else.

But, since his sacrifice is singular, if the something else is not singular, then the atonement is really dependent on that something else on a case by case basis.

So...if there is any contingency at all, in any form, and regardless of rationale, as to why I must believe (or do) whatever it is I'm supposed to believe (or do) in order for my sins to be atoned, then it is really that belief or action, and not the sacrifice, that atones.

To place any restriction of any kind on who is the recipient of such atonement renders the "sacrifice" useless, and props up instead the resriction itself as the means of atonement. I think Jesus would be rather annoyed about that if he were not fictional.

Paul's justification by faith is in opposition to Jesus' justification by his own sacrifice.

Originally posted by spamandham
Well, my position is admittedy biased (which makes me more honest than you unless you admit the same), but...

That's a sharp blow--but not a cheap shot by any means. Self-delusion is the ultimate liar--and the one most likely to be believed until the bitter end. I truly love irony.

For Jesus' "sacrifice" to atone for our sins, it must be self sufficient. Otherwise, it is not just his sacrifice that atones, but his sacrifice combined with something else.

*Ouch* That is so logical and simple, too! Hmmm...

But, since his sacrifice is singular, if the something else is not singular, then the atonement is really dependent on that something else on a case by case basis.

*Pow*

So...if there is any contingency at all, in any form, and regardless of rationale, as to why I must believe (or do) whatever it is I'm supposed to believe (or do) in order for my sins to be atoned, then it is really that belief or action, and not the sacrifice, that atones.

To place any restriction of any kind on who is the recipient of such atonement renders the "sacrifice" useless, and props up instead the resriction itself as the means of atonement.

That is undeniably true--and even Paul (whom you have little regard for) said exactly that--but rarely did anyone truly hear.

Paul's justification by faith is in opposition to Jesus' justification by his own sacrifice.

Actually--it really isn't 'Paul's opposition' at all, because that is exactly what he says, too. But his words have been martyred, so to speak, burned at the proverbial religious stake--the stack lit by the flame which burns on the end of the christian tongue (that 'little member' mentioned by James).

Ephesians 2:8 says it quite plainly--it is not the 'faith' of ourselves which saves, it is the 'faith' which came as a gift from God. Specifically, God made a promise to Abraham--and He kept that promise. His faithfulness in regard to that vow is the only faith that powers the world's salvation.

The christian world says that by 'believing' we gain something--yet the word pistis doesn't mean 'to believe'--it is more of the nature of being trustworthy, reliable, and true. It is the act of giving one's word and standing firm upon a promise made--voluntary promises are a snare to every man--we cannot keep promises, most of the time--even with our best intentions. God didn't see fit to give us the opportunity to crash our own ships--that lesson is found within the book of Genesis, yet the idea that we can, and must, help ourselves in order for God to do any good for us persists--and the nature of 'sin' remains a mystery to most.

God is both faithful and righteous. He keeps His word perfectly and never shows partiality to anyone. Such a God as that has no place in the christian religion--the most obvious reason being that there would be nothing more to dispute about.

I don't believe we could even begin to understand Jesus' role without understanding at least two of the many characteristics of God.

The first is one is what everyone likes to hear and rightfully so:

God is merciful - "God is love" is a verse that we look upon and smile.

But the second is the one people have issue with:

God is just - "Yet He does not leave the guilty unpunished". We can accept that He is love in one place, but the fact that He's the God of justice as well isn't right for some reason?

Two hang-ups that will make this difficult to understand. One, if a person doesn't believe we as people make mistakes. Two, is that if a person doesn't accept Christ as the solution to this dilemna. That's it folks, plain and simple as I think it could be. If everyone's on-board, then we can move on to Jesus. Otherwise I think we need to either back-up or discuss in more detail even before approaching Christ's role in the plan.



[edit on 27-10-2005 by saint4God]

It doesn't really matter who gets in or out of heaven or how we get there. If I remember correctly only 144000 people are getting in anyway and also where do people/souls go while they are waiting to get to heaven???



G

Originally posted by shihulud
It doesn't really matter who gets in or out of heaven or how we get there.

Yes.

Originally posted by shihulud
If I remember correctly only 144000 people are getting in anyway

Nope, that's the sealed folks who announce the second coming in Revelation. They're also male virgins from the 12 tribes of Israel.

What it does say though, is: "After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb." Revelation 7:9. To find out what they do, read on, it gets interesting from there.

Originally posted by shihulud
and also where do people/souls go while they are waiting to get to heaven???

G

What "waiting"? It happens "in the blink of an eye" as it's written. We're not going to experience a time lapse post-mortem.

Hope this helped, good questions!

There is a huge problem with christian dogma. There are many righteous people who reject jesus christ as God and savior. Do you believe that Holocaust victims will share the same frying pan as hitler? Or howabout a rabbi who followed the commandments of the torah. What about all of the catholics are they saved? how about those who never heard the gospel.
So only 1% of the world will actually make it to heaven while the others burn in hell. sounds like a loving God to me!

Originally posted by shihulud
It doesn't really matter who gets in or out of heaven or how we get there. If I remember correctly only 144000 people are getting in anyway and also where do people/souls go while they are waiting to get to heaven???

As I have learned from pointing this out on other threads, those 144000 are the people who go to heaven whilst still alive in the book of revelation, not in all time, 144000 out of about, I don't know 20 billion who ever lived seems a bit unlikely, you know?

And also, i am not sure about ex-christians, but atheists, I think are well into a big hole they need to get out of, but non christians, I really don't have a clue!

Originally posted by apex

Originally posted by shihulud
It doesn't really matter who gets in or out of heaven or how we get there. If I remember correctly only 144000 people are getting in anyway and also where do people/souls go while they are waiting to get to heaven???

As I have learned from pointing this out on other threads, those 144000 are the people who go to heaven whilst still alive in the book of revelation, not in all time, 144000 out of about, I don't know 20 billion who ever lived seems a bit unlikely, you know?

And also, i am not sure about ex-christians, but atheists, I think are well into a big hole they need to get out of, but non christians, I really don't have a clue!

Do you think that the 144,000 are really those that fight the armies of the antimessiah at armegeddon. they are in heaven because they get killed at the very end.