Do Ex-Christians and Non-Christians get a chance at heaven...

actually the passage in John 10 is "No one comes to the father, except through me."

Depends on your definitions of "coming to the father" is.

Is the Kingdom of Christ the same things as the "Kingdom of Heaven?"


Discuss.

Originally posted by saint4God
But the second is the one people have issue with:

God is just - "Yet He does not leave the guilty unpunished". We can accept that He is love in one place, but the fact that He's the God of justice as well isn't right for some reason?

Two hang-ups that will make this difficult to understand. One, if a person doesn't believe we as people make mistakes. Two, is that if a person doesn't accept Christ as the solution to this dilemna. That's it folks, plain and simple as I think it could be. If everyone's on-board, then we can move on to Jesus. Otherwise I think we need to either back-up or discuss in more detail even before approaching Christ's role in the plan.

Let's back-up, then--to the issue of what constitutes righteousness and just judgment.

The third chapter of Romans:

(1) What advantage, then, does the Jew have, or what value is there in circumcision? (2) There are all kinds of advantages! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the utterances of God. (3) What if some of them were unfaithful? Their unfaithfulness cannot cancel God's faithfulness, can it?

Now, for the sake of relating to the principles set forth by Paul--which were relevant in terms of being 'Jew' (or 'Judah') or 'Gentile'(or 'Greek')--we have to first understand that those designations didn't mean the same then as they do now. To be a 'gentile' was to be a 'heathen'--one who worshipped dead gods made of wood and stone, etc...and this was only because they were not Israel, and didn't not come equipped with the understanding that set Abram apart back in UR--which is the knowledge that God is a Living God, not a dead god contained in material objects. And so, to be a 'Jew' was basically to be an Israelite--they were not the only Israelites in the world at the time--but they were the only ones aware of their heritage within that cultural heritage (i.e. they still had a sense of their identity as God's Chosen Nation). It is obvious when reading Acts and the rest of the NT, that there were many Israelites around Jerusalem--despite being classed as 'gentiles' in the estimation of the Jews, these were the ones who numbered all those that were instantly converted in their souls when they heard the new gospel message.

So to apply that to the New Testament, Paul talks of Jews and Gentiles, but underneath those labels, any soul that recognizes God in such a manner is a legitimate 'called out' member of the assembly of the OT (the camp of Israel). These are the remnant of the 12 tribes--those who God predetermined would serve in bringing the whole world to the knowledge of His Life. The name 'Israel' means 'who prevails with God.' And this is the essence of the designation--those who overcome. So back to Paul...

(1) What advantage, then, does the Jew have, or what value is there in circumcision? (2) There are all kinds of advantages! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the utterances of God. (3) What if some of them were unfaithful? Their unfaithfulness cannot cancel God's faithfulness, can it?

From the beginning, we know that Israel was to bring the word of God to the world--but the nation was stringently tested before their tour of duty, and all those who were basically what could be termed 'gentile' (since they didn't recognize God apart from that which is not) were removed in the times following the crucifixion and the later destruction of the temple.

They were given a 'trust'--they were to 'keep the faith.' Not all did--they were 'unfaithful' to their charge and didn't do what they were supposed to do. These verses have absolutely nothing to do with the idea of 'believing in God.' All the circumcision believed in God--how could they not? They might not have known Him when He visited, but they surely believed.
The advantage that Paul speaks of is the one that comes as a reward for fulfilling one's assigned task--which is what Paul referred to as his 'crown.' It has nothing to do with salvation--it is rather the reward for doing one's job in regard to the world's salvation. To faithfully deliver the truth to the gentiles, by both word and deed--that is the job assigned to the circumcision.

(4) Of course not! God is true, even if everyone else is a liar. As it is written, "You are right when you speak, and win your case when you go into court." (5) But if our unrighteousness serves to confirm God's righteousness, what can we say? God is not unrighteous when he vents his wrath on us, is he? (I am talking in human terms.)

The fact that most did not fulfill their task has absolutely no effect of making what God said to Abraham decreased in any way, as far as it's promise of fulfillment. No matter what we do, God will keep His word. And if we fail, it will only show, in the end, just how perfect He is. As well as just, since it will have no sway on Him--and as the parable goes, those entrusted with much will either be punished or rewarded accordingly.

(6) Of course not! Otherwise, how could God judge the world? (7) For if through my falsehood God's truthfulness increases to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? (8) Or can we say-as some people slander us by claiming that we say-"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved!

God can only do right by all of us if He fairly recompenses us each on the basis of what we were entrusted with. And by that same token, even those who failed, did so as part of the bigger plan that is only within His wisdom--we all have a role in serving as a living lesson for those around us--whether it be by way of blessing or cursing--God warned of both in the beginning. I think the main value of this aspect of His plan is in regard to an absolute demonstration towards the short-sightedness poor judgment we cannot help but victimize ourselves with--time and again--just because we are human. He could be a tyrant--or He could allow us the space to learn this lesson in a more lasting and loving way--for even to let us suffer from our own devices yet keeping our spirits unbroken and therefore capable of future joy (recovery from the lesson) is better than keeping us unknowing and limited, just babes, so to speak, in the garden.

(9) What, then, does this mean? Are we Jews any better off? Not at all! For we have already accused everyone, both Jews and Greeks, of being under the power of sin.

Paul is saying that (in regard to those of Israel who knew their Messiah) the condition of recognizing and serving God makes no one any better than those who weren't first called to that duty in Israel. Being called to serve has nothing to do with being a 'sinner.' We are all just as guitly as the other, and none more so--I am no better than a rapist/murderer, in the dark reaches of my heart--perhaps my life has given me another route of expressing that darkness, one not so outwardly damaging to another through violence--but that's circumstance and nothing more. I am a worthless dirt bag who doesn't know my right hand from my left--but then again, so are you. ( I am saying these things in general to demonstrate my point--don't take offense, anyone--although I do admit I'm worthless by nature--but I didn't always understand this. That's what is meant by being 'under the power of sin'--the situation of delusion in one's life, whether it is undetected as opposed as to being recognized.)

(10) As it is written, "Not even one person is righteous. (11) No one understands. No one searches for God. (12) All have turned away. Together they have become worthless. No one shows kindness, not even one person! (13) Their throats are open graves. With their tongues they practice deception. The venom of poisonous snakes is under their lips. (14) Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness. (15) Their feet are swift to shed blood. (16) Ruin and misery mark their ways. (17) They have not learned the path to peace. (18) There is no fear of God before their eyes."

I'm pretty sure this is Isaiah Paul is quoting, off the top of my head. The condition of people never changes, because those things still apply today--irrespective of what one claims to believe or follow--much violence and untruth is done in every arena of life, both in God's name as well as against it, and also 'just because'.

(19) Now we know that whatever the law says applies to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.

Regardless of what's done in His name (under the law) or against it and what is done 'just because' (those that don't hold to any divine government being valid or applicable to them)--no one is justified, and all are guilty and standing before the same impartial Judge, accountable in the same exact manner as one another.

(20) Therefore, no human being will be justified in God's sight by means of the works prescribed by the law, for through the law comes the full knowledge of sin.

Doesn't matter if we used His name or not--whether truly knowing or not--the fact will remain that we made mistakes and did harm to one another, even with the best loving intentions. Personally I can attest to the sad truth of hurting the ones I loved the most when I foolishly acted in their best interest (yet with wisdom sorely lacking I did no one any good at all--least of all myself--because that hurts worse than anything). We know better sometimes, and sometimes we don't. We still can't do right as we should.

(21) But now, apart from the law, God's righteousness is revealed and is attested by the Law and the Prophets- (22) God's righteousness through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction, (23) since all have sinned and continue to fall short of God's glory.

We still are incapable of being just--no matter where we align ourselves, our nature remains imperfect and incapable of true fairness in any fashion.

(24) By his grace they are justified freely through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (25) whom God offered as a place where atonement by Christ's blood could occur through faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because he had waited patiently to deal with sins committed in the past.

God didn't hold with the first testament, which said this and that must be observed in order to be considered 'faithful.' (Again, not 'believing', but loyal and trusthworthy toward the charge given by God.)

(26) He wanted to demonstrate at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies the person who has the faithfulness of Jesus.

Only Jesus did the whole of what He had been charged to do. His trustworthiness and reliableness, as just one man, saved the whole of the world. And so those that believe He rose from the dead are considered 'just' in God's eyes and are called to serve the rest of the world in the name of God and Life--because only this way can we be trustworthy--and the secret to that impossible ability in an impossible situation is the Holy Spirit--the helper and advocate that makes our previously damaging 'good intentions', and even our mistakes, not recorded on our tally sheets (so to speak.)

(27) What, then, is there to boast about? That has been eliminated. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on the principle of faith.

The playing field has been leveled--no one can do any good of themselves, and the only good done is by the power of God and God alone. And the principle of 'faith' so misunderstood in the NT is the qualities given by the Holy Spirit that render our failings into boldness as reliable ambassadors for God toward the entire population.

(28) For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works prescribed by the law.

It is nothing we do--not even that we 'believe'--it is completely due to the fact that Christ fulfilled the tasks He was anointed to perform.

(29) Is God the God of the Jews only? Is he not the God of the gentiles, too? Yes, of the gentiles, too, (30) since there is only one God who will justify the circumcised on the basis of faith and the uncircumcised by that same faith.

God is the God of both those who 'know' God (or 'claim' God) and of those that don't. Not because some believe in one point or another, and others won't/can't/refuse to. God is going to justify everyone based on what Christ did--and it in no way depends on
whether we realize just what has been done on our behalf, that we could have never done ourselves.

(31) Do we, then, abolish the law by this faith? Of course not! Instead, we uphold the law.

Does that mean, then, that the basic rules that God gave for theocratic government don't apply anymore? That we can lie if it suits us--since we've been justified? No--what it means is that because of Christ's fulfillment of an impossible task, those called in the present in order to serve toward the knowledge of that to all the people, also serve as living testimonials that God's rules aren't unfair or unjust in any way--and that He also gives us, now, the means to be able to comply, so that we all have the same hope which saves us from the doom we all once also shared equally. And those who are 'faithful' to the trust given are no more saved than anyone else--but they do have something they are charged with, whereas others don't. It is not to do with communicating God as something to hide from and fear--this is the New Covenant, the one made perfect--and the law (which is love) of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul; as well as casting out the torment of our souls once subject to the thoughts of our own mortality and inherent inability to please a God we did not have access to.

1 John 4:16-19 We have come to know and believe in the love that God has for us. God is love, and the person who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. (17) This is how love has been perfected among us: we will have confidence on the day of judgment because, while we are in this world, we are just like him. (18) There is no fear where love exists. Rather, perfect love banishes fear, for fear involves punishment, and the person who lives in fear has not been perfected in love. (19) We love because he first loved us.

God doesn't save us because we choose to believe in Him--we come to the light of understanding Him solely because He first loved us. And none of us are more worthy of punishment or of rescue than any other--but we will all be judged and only those faithful in their task will be justified (by believing the resurrection.) And those that deem themselves teachers but were not justified will be judged on that wise.

But the grave and death will still be sent to non-existence--without a single one of us in there.

Originally posted by queenannie38
But the grave and death will still be sent to non-existence--without a single one of us in there.

Could you please clarify a part briefly. Perhaps I read too far into your post. Are you saying there's no Hell? And that all are saved?

How are you defining 'hell?'

By that, I mean:

'hades?' (as in Matthew 16:18)
'tartaros'? (as in 2 Peter 2:4)
or 'hell fire'? (as in Matthew 5:22)

Did you know that there are, in the KJV NT, 23 occurrences of the word 'hell?'
1 of those is 'tartaros', 12 are originally 'the valley of Hinnom,' and 10 are translated from the Greek word 'hades?'

Yet, if you look these up according to their original renderings in the Greek, while there is still just one incident of 'tartaros,' and 12 'valley of Hinnom'--there are 11 occurrences of the word 'hades?' That is 24. Where is there a 'hades' that isn't translated 'hell?'

1 Corinthians 15:55:

O death where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Should it be 'O hell, where is thy victory'?

Consider that the last 4 times we find 'hades' in the NT after these words of Paul's, are all found in Revelation (1:18, 6:8, 20:13 and 14), paired with 'death.'

Prior to verse 55, in 1 Corinthians 15:22, Paul states:
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

For because, therefore,

as just as, exactly like

in instrumentality, for (. . . sake of), (because) of

Adam
all all, any, every, the whole

die, to die off, be dead, death, be slain (with)

even and, also, even, so, then, too, likewise, moreover, therefore

so in this way (referring to what precedes or follows), after (in) this
manner, likewise, thus

in instrumentality, for (. . . sake of), (because) of

Christ
shall all all, any, every, the whole

be made alive. to vitalize, make alive, give life, quicken

Verse 51 says 'we will not all sleep but we shall all be changed.'

Not just some of us--not just 'believers.' All of those who were born in the natural, corruptible human form. That would be all of us. We were all born in flesh to die in flesh by the same exact instrument--which was of Adam. If we were all born to die by the same man (Adam), then we are likewise all to be born to life by the same man (Yehoshua.)

'The last enemy to be destroyed is death.' (verse 26)

Death and 'hell'--death and the grave. If death is destroyed, there is obviously no need for a single grave, whatsoever. And we find that these are to be destroyed, according to both St. Paul--and also St. John, in Revelation 20:14.

that you're well studied queenannie. It could be that you are so much that I, as layfolk, am having difficulty understanding what you're saying. Would you be able to simplify for me what you believe hell is, with brevity and conciseness? And do you believe all are saved?

[edit on 4-11-2005 by saint4God]

"Hell"-"Heaven"

Hell is the torment one goes thru when one makes improper decisions that adversely effects either themselves or others. The "Having to live" with that decision.

"Heaven"-We are in GOD's kingdom presently. I giggle when one points skyward to "heaven".

In answer to the original question. It goes back into the interpretation deal which man is certainly having a hard time doing. Did Jesus state, "Go through me", or "Go with me"?

The difference in the one world makes a heckuva difference. However, in one's heart the answer lays.

The understanding that GOD runs through EVERYTHING and EVERYONE is certainly a key.

A question for all to contemplate-How does a yellow sun produce white light?

Originally posted by saint4God
according to Christianity?

Hmmm... *taptaptap* This one is a real thinker, yes? We know the Bible tells us about how to secure eternal life in this lifetime (U2U me if you'd like details on this), but what about those who reject, never fully hear/understand, or don't hear the good news at all?

For those who hear Gospel and decide to reject it, when they die there are no other chances.

For the debate on those who never hear the gospel, the Bible tells us they are without excuse because creation itself is revelation enough that there is a God. God is fair and just and none of these will enter hell unjustly.

This is what I read from the Bible and study and take in concerning christians.

There are some people who claim to be a christian but really aren't, because they didn't mean it when they accepted Christ(so in actuality they are part of the unsaved group). I don't know whether they thought they could fool God or what, but if they die without Christ they are lost.

God tells us that when someone, truly accepts Christ, HE will NEVER LEAVE us nor FORSAKE us. If you accepted Christ and meant it you are saved.

Originally posted by dbrandt
For those who hear Gospel and decide to reject it, when they die there are no other chances.

You are a sociopath, just like your god.

You've made yourself as horrifying as he is rather than question your security blanket. You don't bat an eye at the judgment you uncritically repeat.

You'd rather sacrifice your very humanity than give up the self induced insanity you worship by the name of faith.

Does this sound harsh? It's infinitely less harsh than the nonsensical venom I just quoted you saying. You call it love, I call it the greatest hate imaginable. Jackels are more human than the despicable character you praise.

If you could only open your eyes for a moment, you would see the lies that control you and fool you into thinking slavery is freedom, hate is love, and death is life.

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by dbrandt
For those who hear Gospel and decide to reject it, when they die there are no other chances.

You are a sociopath, just like your god.

You've made yourself as horrifying as he is rather than question your security blanket. You don't bat an eye at the judgment you uncritically repeat.

You'd rather sacrifice your very humanity than give up the self induced insanity you worship by the name of faith.

Does this sound harsh? It's infinitely less harsh than the nonsensical venom I just quoted you saying. You call it love, I call it the greatest hate imaginable. Jackels are more human than the despicable character you praise.

If you could only open your eyes for a moment, you would see the lies that control you and fool you into thinking slavery is freedom, hate is love, and death is life.

Just out of interest, does your views extend to all religions, or do you just happen to not like christians. I am a christian, but I have to say that when you think about it, hell is so terrible I feel someone like Stalin or Hitler would not deserve it for eternity.

I think we may make a mis interpretation when it says "hell is the eternal fire" we read "people who go to hell go there for eternity"
think about the fact that we have an all loving God, and you must realize eventually all but the worst must be forgiven. If someone is in hell eventually they must see the light, realize they must cxome to God, beg for forgiveness, and be forgiven. It makes sense.

Originally posted by apex
Just out of interest, does your views extend to all religions, or do you just happen to not like christians.

It extends to anyone who's beliefs would place others in eternal torment. I'm not certain, but I think this applies only to Christianity and Islam.

Originally posted by apex
If someone is in hell eventually they must see the light, realize they must cxome to God, beg for forgiveness, and be forgiven. It makes sense.

There are two views of hell from a Biblical perspective. The first is that hell in the Bible is allegorical or metephorical not literal. For those who take this perspective, hell is permanent death without resurrection.

The second view is that hell is an actual place of torment. If you take this perspective, from a Biblical view, it is eternal, quite nasty, and there is no way out.

What you are suggesting is a nonbiblical middle ground sort of like the Hindu view of hell, or the Catholic purgatory - a place of purification where sin is burned off, but not eternal. If your ok with essentially making up your own doctrine, you might as well just dispense with hell altogether.

Originally posted by saint4God
that you're well studied queenannie. It could be that you are so much that I, as layfolk, am having difficulty understanding what you're saying.

I'm sorry to be giving you trouble understanding me--I was trying to just stick to the facts (according to what I've discovered in studying) rather than put forth my 'opinion' as something definite. I used to have an opinion, no doubt--and it wasn't the same as what I've discovered since then...I had to adjust a great deal, in regard to what I'd always assumed compared to what I learned by delving into languages and the cultures of the eras during which these things were written down. To say my 'beliefs were challenged' is an understatement--a gross understatement.

Would you be able to simplify for me what you believe hell is, with brevity and conciseness?

What I'd like to stress is that, anymore, I don't 'believe' hell is anything--all I can assert is what I've understood the scriptures to actually say, from translation rather than interpretation. I'm not wanting to interpret anything, either for myself or anyone else--I only want to be as precise as I can in presenting what I currently understand as far as from a linguistic perspective. The rest, we must all decide for ourselves, or even, not decide...I personally have complete confidence in my LORD to do us all right, in the end--He loves us all and is righteous (these points I have never found any reason to doubt)--and since it is in His hands, at least on my part, I cannot worry too much.

Anyway, sorry to digress--I just want to be clear on where I'm coming from.

'Hell'--as commonly defined as an eternal place of fiery torment for 'unsaved' souls does not biblically exist. The word hell has been translated from at least 3 different words in the NT, and the word in the OT translated hell (sheol) means the same as 'underworld, grave, pit'. It is the 'abode of the dead, a subterreanian retreat.' The root that it comes from, interestingly enough, means ' to ask, enquire, borrow, beg.'

So, quite honestly, what I understand 'hell' to be (sheol or hades) is the grave--and it might be hard to conceive of, but we are in 'hell' right now--we are in the world of the dead--Jesus Christ, remember, was the first-born of the dead. I don't think that means the first born from physical death, but the first one resurrected out of the state of exile which this world actually is--ever since that fateful incident in the garden several millenia ago.

To be even more candid--I did not realize the truth of what 'life' and 'death' really are, on the bigger scale of both material and spiritual existence--until I experienced true life--after over 20 something years of thinking I was alive, I was then shown what 'alive' truly felt like. Rather than bore everyone with the details, I will try to pm you about this, because I think it's something you might like to hear about.

And do you believe all are saved?[edit on 4-11-2005 by saint4God]

First of all--I don't think any of us are actually 'saved' until we die. Our bodies give us a form of life, a vehicle for our souls--but until that vehicle is abandoned, we cannot say consider ourselves delivered of death--because when it dies, if our souls remained attached to it--our current prison would become our permanent coffin. So at the moment our body dies, that is when the rescue from the doom takes place. That is when we are saved.

And, as the verse from Corinthians, that I expounded upon, says--just as we all were made subject to the death of the flesh, because of Adam--we will all be made alive, because of Christ. His resurrection assures us all of resurrection. This isn't what most people believe, think, teach, and trust--but it is what the bible says.

We will have to account for what we've done to one another--good and bad--and every word we've ever uttered will be on record, too. But 'justification' and 'salvation' are two different things, entirely--but they're mostly confused with each other, from what I see.

Originally posted by dbrandt
For those who hear Gospel and decide to reject it, when they die there are no other chances.

If God is truly a 'faithful Creator' and full of mercy and righteousness--perfect in His love for His creations--basically, if God is worthy of the title 'Most High'--wouldn't any 'good news' that came on His authority be impossible to reject when heard?

Perhaps what people reject is not the actual gospel, but a perversion thereof. Just like Paul warned about 2000 years ago...

For the debate on those who never hear the gospel, the Bible tells us they are without excuse because creation itself is revelation enough that there is a God. God is fair and just and none of these will enter hell unjustly.

Actually, those who were 'without excuse' were the angelic host who fell from God's presence. They knew. Man has only guessed, for the most part.

God is fair and just--and considering that we all became subject to death by one man (Adam) and none of us are righteous (not one of us, per Isaiah? I think it was or maybe David) then how can it be that if any one of us deserves to 'enter hell', that it doesn't apply to us all? And if so--then we all are equally undeserving of rescue from death--which means if Christ came to rescue even one of us, He came to rescue us all.

To be perfectly fair, we all deserve to die. On the other hand, we all deserve to live. I'm no better or more special, in any way, whatsoever, than anyone else. The same goes for every other soul, regardless. That is fair and just.

There are some people who claim to be a christian but really aren't, because they didn't mean it when they accepted Christ(so in actuality they are part of the unsaved group).

The only 'saved' group is the group who have already departed our earthly existence. Presently, death has not quite gotten a grip on any of us--it is a sure inevitability, but until it happens, we cannot technically be rescued from it.

As far as 'accepting' Christ--didn't He say that no man can come to Him, unless the Father draws him? Wouldn't it be more properly worded 'through the faith fulfilled by Christ, we are all accepted by the Father?' It's not like we had the ultimate say-so; God's not waiting around with baited breath hoping we 'accept' His Son. He arranged, on behalf of all of us, a way that we could be accepted in His holy of holies. He provided reconciliation and did the whole job. Mainly because He knew we were too blind and limited in our cognition to understand the ramifications that our prideful ways would surely bring upon us.

I don't know whether they thought they could fool God or what, but if they die without Christ they are lost.

We are all born lost.

God tells us that when someone, truly accepts Christ, HE will NEVER LEAVE us nor FORSAKE us. If you accepted Christ and meant it you are saved.

Do a study on the word 'accept'--you will find that it is God who does the accepting, not us. 'Accept' is not the same as 'receive'--as in 'who receives a prophet in a prophet's name, etc...'

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by dbrandt
For those who hear Gospel and decide to reject it, when they die there are no other chances.

If God is truly a 'faithful Creator' and full of mercy and righteousness--perfect in His love for His creations--basically, if God is worthy of the title 'Most High'--wouldn't any 'good news' that came on His authority be impossible to reject when heard?

That is where the free will comes in on our part. Rev. 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Originally posted by queenannie38

And if so--then we all are equally undeserving of rescue from death--which means if Christ came to rescue even one of us, He came to rescue us all.

To be perfectly fair, we all deserve to die. On the other hand, we all deserve to live. I'm no better or more special, in any way, whatsoever, than anyone else. The same goes for every other soul, regardless. That is fair and just.

God could have let us all go unrescued but He didn't He sent Christ for all who will believe/accept/place their faith in Him.He did come to rescue us all but not all are going to come to Him. People can harden their hearts and refuse.

You are making God into who you want Him to be. I used to do the same thing.

Originally posted by queenannie38
Actually, those who were 'without excuse' were the angelic host who fell from God's presence. They knew. Man has only guessed, for the most part.

Alot of people quess what God means that is why we have the Bible. God didn't want us to guess so He tells us in the Bible what is truth.

Romans 1:19-20Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

The whole chapter should be read to understand more.

Originally posted by dbrandt
God could have let us all go unrescued but He didn't He sent Christ for all who will believe/accept/place their faith in Him.He did come to rescue us all but not all are going to come to Him. People can harden their hearts and refuse.

So, what you are saying is that God's will can be defeated by man's stubbornness/ignorance/pride/blindness? God created beings that could thwart His plans?

Christ came to rescue us all--but it won't be a complete success?

IOW, there will be some degree of failure realized in the end, because of human nature? The very same nature we were endowed with by the same God who would let us screw up our own rescue, out of faults inherently human and out of our control to prevent?

You are making God into who you want Him to be. I used to do the same thing.

You are assuming a whole lot about me--not knowing what has led me to this point in time, how can you be sure 'I'm making God into' anything? You say you used to do such a thing--perhaps you still are?

Most people make God after a fashion that is favorable to their own situation--if they are inclined to make God into something, that is. What would be my motive? I'm not trying to justify anything--I was 'right with God' for a long time before these things revealed themselves to me in study and in my thoughts.

Yet what I say God's plan is doesn't land me in any more a favorable position than Jeffrey Dahmer or David Berkowitz--and surely my motive wouldn't be to lure some unsuspecting sinner to hell---if christianity is right, and they're already going there, anyway, what harm could I possibly do by saying they're not? It's not like the threat of hell makes people truly virtuous--just as the death penalty doesn't decrease the amount of capital crimes committed each year.

Is it out of the question that God could actually be just as concerned about all of us, just the same? Even more, is it out of the realm of possibility that God has the power and goodness to actually keep His word and do what He's promised?

Originally posted by dbrandt
Alot of people quess what God means that is why we have the Bible. God didn't want us to guess so He tells us in the Bible what is truth.

It is not just by reading words that we find 'truth.' Only the Spirit of Truth can show us what God wants us to understand.

The whole chapter should be read to understand more.

No doubt--over and over and over. And still there is something to learn every time. Romans is actually one of my favorites.

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by apex
Just out of interest, does your views extend to all religions, or do you just happen to not like christians.

It extends to anyone who's beliefs would place others in eternal torment. I'm not certain, but I think this applies only to Christianity and Islam.

Originally posted by apex
If someone is in hell eventually they must see the light, realize they must cxome to God, beg for forgiveness, and be forgiven. It makes sense.

What you are suggesting is a nonbiblical middle ground sort of like the Hindu view of hell, or the Catholic purgatory - a place of purification where sin is burned off, but not eternal. If your ok with essentially making up your own doctrine, you might as well just dispense with hell altogether.

I wasn't suggesting making up my own doctrine, I think no denomination is perfect, just going straight from the bible would seem best to me. Also thinking that an all loving god wouldn't allow someone to go to hell forever makes sense to me.

Originally posted by apex
I wasn't suggesting making up my own doctrine, I think no denomination is perfect, just going straight from the bible would seem best to me.

Totally agree.

Originally posted by apex
Also thinking that an all loving god wouldn't allow someone to go to hell forever makes sense to me.

Wait a second my friend, didn't you say go "straight from the Bible"? You'd have to reject scripture in order to believe there is no eteral hell in many, many places. Here's just one example:

"If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hand or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell." - Matthew 18:8

Which is it? Scripture or what we would like to see happen. Keeping in mind we're the creation and not the Creator.

Originally posted by saint4God
"If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hand or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell." - Matthew 18:8

Eternal -- 'aionios' -- meaning 'perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well)' -- from the root 'aion' -- meaning 'an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world'.

Fire of Hell
The 'hell' in this verse (and in every occurence that hell is connected with fire in the NT) is not the 'hades' hell--the grave--but is 'gehenna', which is a reference to the Valley of Hinnom.

Now, if we're going to stick to strictly intra-biblical expolation, we've got to understand what the idea of the Valley of Hinnom meant, as spoken by Christ, to the people of that time. It is frequently mentioned in the OT, the first time being in Joshua 15:9, then again in Joshua 18:16:

And the border came down to the end of the mountain that lieth before the valley of the son of Hinnom, and which is in the valley of the giants on the north, and descended to the valley of Hinnom, to the side of Jebusi on the south, and descended to En-rogel,

Looking up the word 'Hinnom,' it seems to be understood to be the name of a Jebusite. The Jebusites, remember, were the occupants of Jerusalem at the time of David, who threw them out and claimed the city in the name of the LORD.

2Kings 23:9-10 give more information as to the significance of this place; it was a place of heinous acts of idolatry by the Israelites--where they sacrificed their children, by fire, to the god molech.

Additional references are found in:

• 2 Chronicles 28:1-3
  
• 2 Chronicles 33:4-7
  
• Jeremiah 7:28-34
  
• Jeremiah 19:2-15
  
• Jeremiah 32:32-40
  

In the whole of the scriptures, there is no connection, of any other sort, made in regard to the Valley of Hinnom. It was also renamed 'the Valley of Slaughter' by God, in His anger at the idolatrous practices of the Israelites, adopted from the neighboring 'heathen.'

This type of 'hell' is only mention by Christ, in His teachings toward the general followers, primarily of Jewish descent, except for one mention by James, in 3:6. James speaks of the tongue being able to set nature on fire, because of its ability to defile--and says that the fire set is ignited by this type of 'hell.' Something to do with idolatry, it would seem--by which I mean the idolatry of seeking guidance elsewhere than God--such as other men and idols. The words we speak have enormous potential to lead others astray--that's what I get from what James says.

Anyway, my point is that there is no other mention of this certain hell (and therefore any type of 'hell fire') aside from the teachings of Christ which must be understood in the context of the time and history of the people He was addressing.

BTW, the valley of Hinnom, in the modern-day country of Israel, is now a beautiful and green park, in the midst of urbanized, cement-dominated, Jerusalem!