Why Believe in the christian God? I dont understand why one does

I read many subjects of how the christian god is the perfect god, the one who makes no mistakes, the almighty, the glorious, the savior, etc.

I am not a believer and because of this I read text for what it is.
Most preachers will just preach one sentence, one part of a thought , a few words from the bible without showing or putting the rest of the text with it.

So with this in mind how can most christians believe in this.

Listen here are a few I picked.....

these are the words of jesus: But anyone who says 'you fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell Mat 5:22

then jesus says at some other time is " how foolish you are" luke 24:25
you fools! luke 11:40

so i guess it is ok for jesus to call people a fool... but not for others to call anyone else a fool

I like the statements, not because Jesus is being a hipocrit but because to me it seems that he(jesus) is the one fooling all.... he uses tricks to get people to follow him just as other writers of the gospels do too.

With a book that is not so loving and not so nice I cant understand why so many have chosen this as their religion.
I am happy people have something to believe in but I hope evryone is not worshipping something different than what they think it is.

It would be horrific to find out one day if this religion is actually the thought of the devil, himself if there is one...
How all christians were fooled by an messenger of evil.....
How god has been telling you to careful of false prophets...

maybe he has been the false prophet all along

this is what god says:
" a curse on him who is lax in doing the Lord's work! A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed!" jeremiah 48:10

What god says to kill? not mine, not any I would believe in.
One day I hope this whole mess can come to a closure and the real truth can come out...





May man be fooled no more


[edit on 9-10-2005 by ncbrian211]

You accuse most preachers of doing exactly what you just did! Discernment prevents me from giving you the answers which my spirit tells me you don’t really want to know.

In Christ,

James

why are you using the bible? you dont know how to even use it, nor do you understand what you are using but you try to use it to prove a point.

SImply this:

Sin .. that is not obeying Gods command... prevents us from being together with God in heaven. it keeps us seperated. But thru the sacrifice of God's only Son as payment for our sins we can now come together with God in heaven, all we have to do is belive in that sacrifice for us.

Now there is a LOT Of detail to go with that. But you would be better to spend your time understanding what sin is, what will happen to those that sin, what grace is, and how it is attained

Why not make the question , why believe in god at all?
What do we gain by limting our thinking to a reglion?
Nothing it hold society back and anything that dosnt much the vision of a utopia is hidden behind a curtain. Not to mention you invite internal/external forces to undermine society.

Originally posted by xpert11
Why not make the question , why believe in god at all?
What do we gain by limting our thinking to a reglion?
Nothing it hold society back and anything that dosnt much the vision of a utopia is hidden behind a curtain. Not to mention you invite internal/external forces to undermine society.

I will answer your two questions separately because although I think you made them to be part of the same idea, they are very different.

1. Why not make the question , why believe in god at all?

Through certain experiences within one's life, one realizes that there is a higher power. If you yourself do not believe in it, then certain experiences in your life, have made you realize that there is no higher power.

Everybody has had different experiences, and has different reasoning skills.

2. What do we gain by limting our thinking to a reglion?

Comfort.

There are many people who believe in God, and do not limit their thinking to one religion.

Akashic thanks for the reply. I can understand why people would think there is a higher power. I agree it depends on the person and there experiences. I remember reading after Katrina a thread saying that the people of New Orleans needed your prays.


For some the disater made them turn to there faith. For people like me it only renforced my beliefs.

I have prayed and prayed for the people of that region, as well as the people in the earthquake in Pakistan region.
I'm sure I'm going to step on alot of toes with this, but here goes:
I have to say that I believe that God is punishing them for the sinful lifestyles that they lead. Annual Marti Gras, and the gay and lesbian pride festival was supposed to happen the weekend that the hurricane hit.

I realize that I'm not perfect, and there are many sins that I have on my head as well, put I pray and ask God for His forgiveness and Grace all the time. I don't know how many people in the New Orleans area are Christians, but I bet there will be many more when all is said and done!

Originally posted by Jehosephat
why are you using the bible? you dont know how to even use it, nor do you understand what you are using but you try to use it to prove a point.

SImply this:

Sin .. that is not obeying Gods command... prevents us from being together with God in heaven. it keeps us seperated. But thru the sacrifice of God's only Son as payment for our sins we can now come together with God in heaven, all we have to do is belive in that sacrifice for us.

Now there is a LOT Of detail to go with that. But you would be better to spend your time understanding what sin is, what will happen to those that sin, what grace is, and how it is attained

I know what sin is and I know the bible I was a christian at one time and know the bible very well, after years of reading and studying religions I have come to the conclusion I ask, Why with all the trickery, and evil doings that come out of the bible,why?

Dont try to pull some stunt as saying I dont know the bible, you are wrong

Originally posted by Jehosephat
Sin .. that is not obeying Gods command... prevents us from being together with God in heaven. it keeps us seperated. But thru the sacrifice of God's only Son as payment for our sins we can now come together with God in heaven, all we have to do is belive in that sacrifice for us.

A popular definition of sin seems to be the disobedience of God's will or command. With this definition it seems we have to accept that:

1. There are events, and actions that are not preordained by God, and happen solely out of our own free will.

2. Another postulate, that seems more extreme, and actually contradicts the first, is that it is possible for us to choose not to accept the preordained path that God has chosen for us.

If the second postulate is denied on terms that the choses we make are already known by God, than the Christian doctrine of eternal damnation seems to make little sense. Why would a God create sentient life, only to exclude half of it for eternity, only for carrying out God's preordained path that was chosen for them.

May I ask you something, AkashicWanderer- Do you believe in God? Heaven and Hell?
What exactly are your beliefs?

Originally posted by just me 2
May I ask you something, AkashicWanderer- Do you believe in God?

Yes.

Heaven and Hell?

Both as a state of mind.

What exactly are your beliefs?

I don't have too many of those.

I don't think beliefs are necessary in the shift of consciousness, all that it takes is to accept this moment.

Simply put, ncbrian, I think that you are taking some of the scriptures out of context, the Bible is more than a book it cant fully be understood with our carnal minds.

When Jesus describes someone as a fool its just that, a description, someone lacking understanding, sense, or judgement, he isn't slandering like most that use the word now.

And by no means would God want us to kill any other human being, again, you are reading to literally IMO.

You will never understand why until you open your mind and set aside for a moment any pre concieved beliefs.

[edit on 10/24/2005 by JKersteJr]

The following excerpt is written by Brent Riggs at www.seriousfaith.com

The Bible is very clear, very direct and very thorough about Hell. No matter how much the subject is ignored, excused or distorted, it doesn't change the fearful and terrible fact:

One microsecond after a you die without Christ,
you will find yourself in unimaginable terror,
horrific pain and unspeakable torment.
There will never be a single opportunity
to lessen the pain or escape the torment, for all eternity.

We aren't doing anyone without Christ any favors by hiding, sugarcoating or ignoring that awful fact - any more than we do someone a favor by ignoring the bus that is about to run them down simply because we don't want to hurt them while getting them off the road. Hell is real. Hell is a fact. Hell is eternal. We warn people constantly about AIDS, disease, drugs, terrorism, scams and a myriad of other dangers, but have been brainwashed to think that warning people about hell is "unloving" or simply offering "fire insurance". Let's look at some facts about hell and see if YOU would want to be warned (emphasis mine in all following verses):

Hell is eternal, it never stops; it never lessens; it never lets up; it never goes out; you never leave; you never get a rest, a break or a vacation... EVER

Matthew 3:12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” (NKJV)
Matthew 13:42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (NKJV)
Mark 9:43-44 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where ‘Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.’ (NKJV)
Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (NKJV)
Jude 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (NKJV)

You always remember what you lost and will always regret your decision to reject Christ

Luke 16:19-28 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’ “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’

You will be thirsty, but never get a drink. You will long for relief, but it will never come. You will beg for rest, but it will never happen. Nothing you wish for will be granted. Hell is a place of tremendous physical suffering and pain that will never lessen or be relieved.

Luke 16:24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ (NKJV)

You will be bitter, angry, frustrated and desperate for all eternity

Matthew 13:41-42 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (NKJV)
Matthew 24:51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (NKJV)

Hell is a place of darkness, loneliness, frustration and desperation. You will be in pitch blackness, all alone, without God, forever and ever; with no points of reference, nothing familiar and no way to get used to it.

Matthew 8:12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (NKJV)
Revelation 20:3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. (NKJV)

Hell will be the ultimate exile and rejection from God where you will never have another chance, ever, to appeal to God, see God, or accept God
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, (NKJV)
Hell is all about extremes. If you make the extreme choice to ignore, deny or reject Jesus, you will suffer the most extreme punishment imaginable by an all-powerful, jealous and angry God. BUT.. never forget that everyone in hell, is there by personal choice. God is never to blame for even one lost soul.

Far from avoiding the subject of hell, we only stand to rescue the lost by warning them of it:

Jude 20-23 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And on some have compassion, making a distinction; but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh. (NKJV)

Contrary to current popular opinion, it is one of the single most loving things you can do to warn someone who is lost of the impending danger and consequence of death without Christ. We should share the reality of hell along with the Good News of salvation in Jesus Christ. A person cannot understand the need for Christ if they do not understand 1) what they have done wrong (sin), and 2) the reality they face (hell) if they choose to do nothing about their sin.

Jesus had a lot to say about hell. If He thought it important to talk about, shouldn't we?

The other extreme is Heaven. Also written by Brent Riggs at www.seriousfaith.com
Does Heaven Interest You?
050809 Tuesday, August 09, 2005 Daily Devotional

1Corinthians 2:9 However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him". (NKJV)

Do you think about Heaven every day as if it really, truly exists?

We go about trying to "get the most" out of our lives unaware or uncaring that this is only a whisper of our true existence. As I talk to people about this, it becomes apparent that most don't truly think of Heaven as a tangible destination but more of a dreamy concept that is of little consequence in our "real" life.

I often hear comments like, "it's scary to think about", or "I don't want the Lord to return yet, there are things I still want to do here" or "I just want to experience everything this life has to offer before going to Heaven". By far the most common response I hear is "I've never really thought about it all that much".

In truth, it should be difficult for us to get our mind OFF of Heaven. Let me ask you a question that might help stir your thoughts of Heaven today.

If you were told today that in one year you will inherit a beautiful estate and several millions of dollars, all free and clear, all yours.... do you think you would spend much time thinking about it over the next year? Do you think you would tell others? Would you plan for that day? Would you long for that day? Would you have a hard time NOT thinking about it?

And yet that is a paupers portion compared to the unimaginable joys and treasures our Lord is preparing for us the day we meet Him face to face.

Spend some time thinking about the reality of our life in Heaven:

Most everything we truly love is either in Heaven, or will end up there: our Christian brothers and sisters, our saved family members, Jesus, our Father, the Spirit. (Heb 12:23, 1Pet 1:4, Phil 3:20, Matt 5:12)
No tears, no sorrow, no pain, no regret, no sin, no temptation, no unending struggling with your flesh - the battle with sin will be over. You will live in perfect holiness, pure and sin-free for all of eternity and it won't be a desperate battle to win, it will be the simple nature of our existence (Rev 22:3-5)
An eternity of never ending blessing and enjoyment in God's presence where everyday will be a new day of discovering God's goodness
After a million million million years we won't be one day closer to the end or closer to exhausting God's capacity to surprise us with His greatness, creativity or love
We will eat and drink for pleasure, not for sustenance (Rev 2:7)
Unimaginable beauty and experiences beyond anything we could ever begin to dream of ("no mind has conceived")
We will experience and explore God's new Heaven and new earth, all remade to perfection by God. If you think there are beautiful scenes on this earth, they won't compare with God's recreated Heaven and earth (2Pet 3:11–12)
We will be in the direct presence of God the Father and Jesus our Savior... we won't have to be insecure about our relationship with Him anymore
We will have a perfect body that never grows old, is never sick, is never injured or in pain (1John 3:2)
Do these truths excite you? If they are really true, we should have trouble NOT thinking about them. As Christians, our hope lies in our eternal destination that has already been decided, secured and prepared.

If Heaven is not "real" to you, ask the Lord to show you why.

Is it because you have a lack of knowledge concerning what the Bible teaches about Heaven?
Is it because you have embraced some myths about Heaven such as:
It will be boring because all we do is sit around and have church
We will float on clouds and play harps
We stand around the throne of God and sing praise music for all eternity
It won't be any fun
We'll be God's robots for all eternity
Is it because you are to consumed with what THIS life has to offer?
Where is your treasure? In this world or in Heaven? Where are you investing your time and resources?
Do you love the things and pleasures of this world so much that Heaven is not enticing?
Are you so consumed with the pleasures of this life that it leaves no time or room to long for Heaven?
Are you still lost in your sin and not sure if you will even go to Heaven?
Think about Heaven today. Talk to someone else about it. Begin to live your life as if Heaven is a real place, a real destination, a real eternity.

Living life, mindful of the reality of Heaven, allows us to calmly and confidently embrace the trials of this life knowing that our destination and victory has already been decided. It is so exciting to think about the wonders and blessing God has in store for us!

Father, help us in our unbelief today to begin to grasp the reality and nature of Heaven. Help us to imagine, to wonder, to dream of our eternity with You and live knowing our destination is not only decided and secure, but already prepared and waiting. Amen.

Contemplation: Is heaven real? Is it a real as the place you are in right now? Do you believe what the Bible says about heaven? Why do you suppose its not more "exciting" to us?

Application: Like most things spiritual, the invisible things of God only become real as we spend more and more intimate time meditating on them. Heaven will become tangible and real to you the more you spend time thinking about it, reading about and talking about it.


Do these sound like "States of Mind"?

Were those 2 excerpts directed at me?

Were they meant to stir discussion, or was it just preaching?

Now let me ask you a question:

What will eternal punishment do?

I mean whenever punishment comes, it is used as a way to teach. What good will eternal punishment do, if the lessons learnt through it are not going to be put into use?

Is your God just looking at the people burning for all eternity and saying, "You didn't listen to my edited doctrine, so now you will burn forever as my revenge, enjoy."

I will repeat myself, to make a point about the fallacy of eternal damnation.

God is omnicient, and if your doctrine holds true, he already knows who is, and is not going to hell. God gave every human being reasoning skills. With these reasoning skills, and with other variables that were chosen by God (place of birth, family etc...) it is that a person rejects your doctrine.

So even before creation your God knew that half of man was going to hell, and he gave them the very reasoning skills and social situation with which they reject your doctrine. Your God is condemning his people to hell, they are poor sheep who are only using what they have been given by your God. They truly have no choice.

Why would your God create sentient life, only to exclude half of it for eternity, only for carrying out God's preordained path that was chosen for them.

Let's meditate on this...




Fear is divorced from any true and immediate concrete danger.

Be in the NOW, all fear dissolves, and the control is gone.

You are FREE.



[edit on 24/10/2005 by AkashicWanderer]

Well you are obviously well read in the scriptures just me 2, so can you reference any excerpt relating to the reason for the creation of Hell, am I wrong in assuming that it was mean't more so for the original followers of Satan?

To me it doesn't make sense that some people will ultimately suffer eternal damnation simply because they were misled by their fellow man, IMO the angels that were decieved by Satan for lack of better words knew better than to reject God because I would imagine he communicated that to them directly at some point. Humans on the other hand are being tricked in a way by the adversary, and we are lead away from salvation by our fellow man and our sin.

I'm pretty sure I've asked this type of question to my spiritual teacher before but I cant recall if I got a straight answer. What is in store after death for someone who has never even been introduced to the Bible, or Christ, or even God in general, like lets say an African tribesman in a third world country, is he going to Hell because of his lack of knowledge?

Make no mistake, I fully believe any man that knowingly rejects God will eventually at the very least be excluded from what God has in store for his followers, I just find it difficult to think that Hell was meant for humans is all.


[edit on 10/24/2005 by JKersteJr]

[edit on 10/11/2005 by just me 2]

Were those 2 excerpts directed at me?

They were directed at anyone who doesn’t believe in Heaven and Hell as REAL places.

Were they meant to stir discussion, or was it just preaching?

However you want to take it is fine with me.

Now let me ask you a question:
What will eternal punishment do?



I mean whenever punishment comes, it is used as a way to teach. What good will eternal punishment do, if the lessons learnt through it are not going to be put into use?

It will make you realize God’s sovereignty and that you should have read and believed in His Word.

Is your God just looking at the people burning for all eternity and saying, "You didn't listen to my edited doctrine, so now you will burn forever as my revenge, enjoy."

God loves you and does not want you to go to hell. John 3:16-18 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.”

But sin separated us from Him, Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”

I will repeat myself, to make a point about the fallacy of eternal damnation.


God is omnicient, and if your doctrine holds true, he already knows who is, and is not going to hell. God gave every human being reasoning skills. With these reasoning skills, and with other variables that were chosen by God (place of birth, family etc...) it is that a person rejects your doctrine.

The thinking person is the one who will actually read the Bible and study it and even research it’s claims and will find that the claims it makes are TRUE. Check out “The Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel. He was an atheist whose wife came home one day and said “Guess what, honey? I’ve become a Christian!” He was so angry that he went on a research binge (he was a journalist by trade) and after all of his research was completed, he realized that the claims of Christ are true. Eventually he became a preacher!

So even before creation your God knew that half of man was going to hell, and he gave them the very reasoning skills and social situation with which they reject your doctrine. Your God is condemning his people to hell

Yes, He is my God, but He is also the One and Only God of the universe!
He isn’t condemning anyone to hell. Man has made his own choices and refuse to follow His moral laws. 2 Peter 3:9 He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (Repentance means to be sorry for and turn away from your sins.)

Why would your God create sentient life, only to exclude half of it for eternity, only for carrying out God's preordained path that was chosen for them.

He originally created Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden and they were sinless, until they were tempted by Satan. They chose to sin, therefore since we are all born in sin from then on, that is why we must suffer the consequences of sin for breaking God’s Law.

JKersteJr,
I will look into your question and get back to you.

Originally posted by just me 2
They were directed at anyone who doesn’t believe in Heaven and Hell as REAL places.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I do not think the point of this discussion board is to copy and paste entire website articles in order to state your point. I want to know what YOU have to say, and how YOU can back up your points. I have no intention of talking to Brent Riggs (unless of course YOU are Brent Riggs, and just enjoy talking about yourself in the 3rd person.)

What will eternal punishmend do?

It will make you realize God’s sovereignty and that you should have read and believed in His Word.

And what purpose will this realization have? What good is it to realize that the Christian edited doctrine was the right one to follow, if you are in the words of Brent Rigg,

"...thirsty, but never get a drink. You will long for relief, but it will never come. You will beg for rest, but it will never happen. Nothing you wish for will be granted. Hell is a place of tremendous physical suffering and pain that will never lessen or be relieved."

The answer is none. The realization has no purpose. If the person realizes that such doctrine was indeed the correct one, this realization should be of some use.

We must then assume that it is a ego game, that your God is playing with those in hell. He tells them, "I told you so, you should've followed my doctrine. Now I will teach you lesson that will be of no use as you will be eternally punished for my pleasure."

The thinking person is the one who will actually read the Bible and study it

In my local church the sign says, "Intellect is the enemy of God." (Not that it adds anything to my point, I'm merely pointing it out)

and even research it’s claims and will find that the claims it makes are TRUE.

Truth is subjective.

Check out “The Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel. He was an atheist whose wife came home one day and said “Guess what, honey? I’ve become a Christian!” He was so angry that he went on a research binge (he was a journalist by trade) and after all of his research was completed, he realized that the claims of Christ are true. Eventually he became a preacher!

Well I do not know if this is or is not true....

Man has made his own choices and refuse to follow His moral laws.

I will for the third time repeat my points on this matter, and hope that in your next reply you will address at least one of them.

1. God gave man the reasoning skills with which man can reject currently accepted Christian doctrine. If such is the case man is only rejecting the doctrine, because of the tools which God gave him to discern between the truth and fallacies. As such if God had given man extremely good reasoning skills all humans could indeed discern between the truth, and be "saved". This would lead to everyone going to heaven.

2. Choices that a person makes are based directly on past experience. We start with a number of factors or variables of which we have no control. This variables include but are not limited to birth place, birth condition, social status, economic status, and family. The choices that we make are in direct relation to these factors, and as such we can say that any rejection of currently accepted Christian doctrine happens because of past experience, much of which if not all, is uncontrollable.

3. God is omnicient. God knew that that Adam and Eve would be tempted by Satan, and knew that they would fall into temptation. God knew that there would be those that would reject his edited doctrine. God knew that he would have to cast a percentage of humans in eternal damnnation because of the factors in points 1 and 2. God knowing all this, created man. God condemmed some of them to eternal damnnation. They are after all only following the preordained path God has made for them

He originally created Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden and they were sinless, until they were tempted by Satan. They chose to sin, therefore since we are all born in sin from then on, that is why we must suffer the consequences of sin for breaking God’s Law.

Please refer to point 3.