Confrontation between Mexican National Gaurd and Minutemen?

Originally posted by Regenmacher
One thing I don't hear on Capital Hill is to build a wall, too simple?

[edit on 11-10-2005 by Regenmacher]

Of course it is too simple, you will still have roads going between Mexico and the United States. You will still have boats. You still have water which can be swam. Building a wall will just have people go under, over or around it. If they want in badly enough they will get in.

Some parts of your post I agree with, some not. A couple of questions/comments:

Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
This has nothing to do with Bush's policy or anyone else's for that matter, the sad fact of the matter is, illegal immiration is good for our country plain and simple. Sure, most people can not realize it now, but they would as soon as tomatoes shot up to three dollars a Lb, or when grapes shot up to ten dollars a Lb.

I would have to say that illegal immigration is good for some people in our country, those being certain employers. But the country as a whole loses because of uncollected payroll taxes.

How about when dear old Grandma doesn't get her social security check, what then? I am sure Americans would notice then. Oh what does S.S have to do with illegal immigration? Well, how about the untold, and unreported billions that get siphoned into our system via their paychecks, and stolen S.S numbers?

I had heard about this. Apparently, some illegals are obtaining SS numbers either from their employer or on their own. So SS taxes get collected, and the illegals never get the benefit of their contributions. Grandma does. Correct?

Well, condoning this practice is encouragng an illegal act to begin with (the stealing of SS numbers), so it has to stop. And I doubt that we rely on that source of income to fund Grandma's SSI.

How about the untold billions that get siphoned back into our economy via rental rates, mortgages, taxes, retail sales, etc, etc? How about the untold numbers that are kept from invading our borders only because of the income sent to them from illegal spouses already here? Let's not think about that, no.

This one I'll have to ask for clarification on. Mortgages? Rental rates? Please elaborate.

Overall, whatever perceived benefit we get from their presence is overshadowed by the social costs we must pay for health care, uninsured motorists, schools, etc.

There will always be people wanting to immigrate to the US, illegally or not. I understand that and am not against it. But the process needs to be formalized so that we don't go broke trying to accomodate everybody.


[edit on 12-10-2005 by jsobecky]

Odium, thanks for bring some sanity to this discussion! These people are only trying to improve the lives of themselves and their families. How can we hate them for that? GWB says one thing while quietly doing just the opposite...as usual. If you want to be mad at someone, be mad at the people who are profiting from the cheap labor.

They should send in some immigration officers, that'll keep them off.

We ought to build some sort of wall of China on the border and put some snipers on it. I think that should take care of the problem.


[edit on 12-10-2005 by RK_Pr0t0c0l]

Originally posted by CindyfromFlorida
Odium, thanks for bring some sanity to this discussion! These people are only trying to improve the lives of themselves and their families. How can we hate them for that? GWB says one thing while quietly doing just the opposite...as usual. If you want to be mad at someone, be mad at the people who are profiting from the cheap labor.

You are right about Bush. But in this case he is doing nothing, which is worse than making a bad decision!

Originally posted by CindyfromFlorida
Odium, thanks for bring some sanity to this discussion! These people are only trying to improve the lives of themselves and their families.

So should be just open our borders to everyone who wants to improve his lives? Is the United States some sort of safe heaven for people who want to improve their lives?

If people want to come to the US and improve their lives, then there are legal way to do it. And if they can't get the legal documents to do it, then there's a good reason for that.

[edit on 12-10-2005 by RK_Pr0t0c0l]

Originally posted by CindyfromFlorida
Odium, thanks for bring some sanity to this discussion! These people are only trying to improve the lives of themselves and their families. How can we hate them for that? GWB says one thing while quietly doing just the opposite...as usual. If you want to be mad at someone, be mad at the people who are profiting from the cheap labor.

They know they are here illegally don't they, are you saying that they can't do it the right way an come here legally? wow theres a concept

I am not against people working here with visas. I think there could be a positive change if our government wanted it so. If we were to construct a giant wall at our borders, we may be able to stop most of the illegals.

Now take that wall, and at the gates have immigration offices and such available to potential immigrants, that would allow them to get their applications filled out and proccessed. These candidates then could be notified in their country as to their staus for work. Now the person can return to pick up his work visa and look at the job postings available to him.

The potential employers can register the positions with immigration, and in turn set up a pick up on a set date to start work. When the time is up, the worker can renew his visa with his employer, or return to the office to be reassigned a new job.

This process can be used as a platform towards citizenship. Let's say x amount of hours in x amount of time with no problems can enable you to become an American citizen. I believe that there are illegals in this country who have been here more than long enough to benefit from such a plan. You could go from applicant to citizen in say three years if all requirements were met.

The same can be said about refugees from another country. We can regulate and know who is in this country legally. The employers lose that ability to abuse the slave labor, the worker gets protection and a new lease on life. His goals will be set in front of him, he can realize these goals and actually improve his life in the same amount of time he was here as an illegal alien.

Granted, this is all off the top of my head thinking, but if the process was in place, it could work.

On the other side, we would have this big wall with imposing towers manned with weapons trained on area like a prison. The men would know that if you werent where you should be, you were up to no good. These men can take immediate action in stopping these individuals cold. The rules would be simple. The wall would be say, 1/4 mile into American soil, the land on both sides of this wall is ours to police. We would make sure everyone knew this. If you tried to sneak in, you were held in our camps until you were identified, then you were sent home. We would not allow you to apply for x amount of time because of it. If you were a repeat offender, you become a criminal in the US.

The cost of illegal immigration cannot be measured strictly in dollars.

Elementary schools in my state of California have had to drop significant portions of their already threadbare curriculum, because of the time a teacher must spend on non-english speaking students. This is one of literally thousands of examples of the unquantifiable costs.

Like others have said, illegal immigration could be stopped tomorrow if we had a leader who even sort of cared about the people. I don't see how Bush supporters can say, "I like everything but his immigration policy." It totally contradicts his false "i'm for the working-class" facade. It shows what really matters to his administration and party. Corporate ties.

As for feeling compassion for poor people who want a better life- you should, you are a human and that seems to me a normal reaction. As far as being a reason to allow indiscriminate immigration, it is absurd.

At last count 2 BILLION people on earth live without power or plumbing, and untold millions more live in poverty. I'm sure they would work for a better life if they could. We can't use pity as a reason to destroy our own country.

[edit on 12-10-2005 by Ray Davies]

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
Among other guns they use the M-16 which you can hit targets 300 plus yards. I cant say how well they are trained though.

Actually the M-16 is just fine out to 500 yards in steady hands. Of course, nobody actually expects that other than the Marine Corps, which is fine by me. If, by some fluke, the idiot who made that threat should actually prove right and there is a confrontation between American citizens and Mexican armed forces, I'll just set up shop exactly 500 yards from the border and wait for target practice, safely beyond the range of Mexico's finest weekend warriors.

The Minutemen are trying to get far away from the vigilante label people in the media have put on them. So you dont find many walking around with rifles infact many arent even armed.

I'm pleased with the minutemen for having proven to be far more professional than the bunch of drunken hillbillies we were all told to expect at first. It would be a real shame, and rather ironic, if the Mexicans, especially the Mexican government, were to ruin the relatively peaceful nature of their perfectly legitimate service to their nation. If that happens though, I'll go down there, because I AM a drunken hill-billy... well not really, but you get my point.

What happens when one of these minutemen kill an innocent person who wasn't an illegal?

Build a wall...people will get around it, under it or over it. All it will take is them to save money for an aeroplane flight and in turn never leave. It'll be the same problem. The wall will just be a temporary solution as will shooting them be. In fact that could be the worst option, it'll only help boost gang membership for MS-13 and their like as well as more money for human trafficing to get them passed the minutement.

The only way to stop illegal immigrants is to push corporations into not using them. If nobody employs them illegally, they won't stay. End of the story.

What happens when one of these minutemen kill an innocent person who wasn't an illegal?

They haven't killed anyone, and they haven't even detained anyone. They just make themselves known to discourage anyone from crossing there. If they do cross, the Minuteman call the Border Patrol, they don't make citizen arrests.

Also, we could install ground motion sensors along the border to make sure no one can tunnel under a wall or fence. But that's not enough, we have to make sure that the wall or fence is manned 24/7 by national guard or border patrol. If we do that they will have no where to cross.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
They haven't killed anyone, and they haven't even detained anyone. They just make themselves known to discourage anyone from crossing there. If they do cross, the Minuteman call the Border Patrol, they don't make citizen arrests.

Yet. I never said they had killed anyone.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Also, we could install ground motion sensors along the border to make sure no one can tunnel under a wall or fence. But that's not enough, we have to make sure that the wall or fence is manned 24/7 by national guard or border patrol. If we do that they will have no where to cross.

Which will result in more money going to people to smuggle them in and get around the Government. Boat, plane? They can enter the U.S. legally and then not leave it still results in the same thing and than your big ass wall has no real purpose.

[edit on 12/10/2005 by Odium]

Right, that's why even only having US civilians sitting on our side of the border have had no results right?
Care to look up the difference in number of people crossing where the minuteman are today Vs. last year?

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Right, that's why even only having US civilians sitting on our side of the border have had no results right?
Care to look up the difference in number of people crossing where the minuteman are today Vs. last year?

i'd like to see that number too, but how are you going to validate it? nobody can tell you for certain what the numbers are now, much less what they are with the minutemen there.

Seems to me that people are using the excuse "they'll find other ways to sneak in" to justify leaving the borders open.

I say make it harder. People steal despite laws against theft--just that most people don't do it because it's illegal or for fear of getting caught.

I don't mind people coming here legally (though I think a moratorium should be declared). What ticks me off is the ones breaking the law--and getting away with it.

Originally posted by Amethyst
Seems to me that people are using the excuse "they'll find other ways to sneak in" to justify leaving the borders open.

I say make it harder. People steal despite laws against theft--just that most people don't do it because it's illegal or for fear of getting caught.

I don't mind people coming here legally (though I think a moratorium should be declared). What ticks me off is the ones breaking the law--and getting away with it.

building on amethyst's post:

"locks are only there to keep honest people honest" and "good fences make good nieghbors." both quotes from the 50's that are very relevant to this situation.

does anyone agree with my above post? I was kinda proud of thinking it up on the fly.

Originally posted by shadow watcher
....If we were to construct a giant wall at our borders, we may be able to stop most of the illegals.

Yeah, I'd love to have one too. And one might think at first glance that the sheer cost of this would be prohibitive. But just to give you an idea, here is a picture and bit of info on the barrier built in Israel:



Excerpted from:
Economist.com

On the section already completed, it is between 60 and 100 metres wide, consisting of concrete walls, electronic and razor-wire fences, trenches or ditches, plus, as a rule, three roads: one to trace infiltrators, another for army patrols and a third wide one for tanks. It has meant a big financial investment. The first phase is estimated to have cost the Israeli government $200m, working out at around $1.6m per kilometre. The final cost is incalculable, given how amorphous the plans still are. One Israeli analyst puts the price tag at $1 billion.

So after doing the math at around $1.5m to $2m per mile, to seal the 1,800 mile Mexican border would cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $2.7 billion to $3.6 billion. And as another article put it:

This West Bank fence will "cost up to $2 million a mile," according to the Washington Post.

Let's do the math. Two million bucks for each of the 1,800 miles of the Mexican border comes out to a grand total of $3.6 billion. That's chickenfeed compared to the couple of trillion clams the federal government blows through each year - less than 0.2% of annual outlays. Even if all the payoffs to lawyers, environmental impact researchers, Indian chiefs and the like doubles the cost to $7.2 billion, so what? It's cheap at twice that price.

What about operating costs? Say that once the fence is up and running, we then spend $1,000,000 per mile per year on guards and maintenance. That's 0.1% of the Federal budget.

So that's for a first class, extremely well protected barrier. Now while these costs could certainly vary due to terrain differences and other things, if we were to build a wall of just half that complexity, and cut corners in some other areas, this possibility becomes very real and viable. Heck, it's viable at full build!

If we have to do the wall thing, then at least we could do the Mexican border first, since that is where most of the problem is coming from. I am less interested in building a Canadian border wall, although it certainly could help protect us against outside terrorists seeking entry.

The rest of your post is interesting too, shadow, although I don't know about the whole job posting with visa entry idea. That's a federally assisted tool to help employ immigrants. Not crazy about that, or any idea that routes federal funds into programs that unfairly benefit immigrants. They will have access to the same tools they do now to find employment, just like the rest of us, once they are in the country.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Right, that's why even only having US civilians sitting on our side of the border have had no results right?
Care to look up the difference in number of people crossing where the minuteman are today Vs. last year?

WestPoint, you know that any statistics on such things as illegal immigrants are not valid. There is no way to check as they are only assumed statistics. The best you have is how many get stopped and as I said earlier, it is a temporary problem.

It will solve things in the short term, like a wall. It'll then just have more people smuggled into the U.S. by groups like MS-13 so that their gang can get even more money. Or they will just spend longer, saving up money to get a plane or boat trip into the United States...

TrueAmerican, I actually thought you'd not fall into this trap. A wall will not stop terrorists. They come in legally, that's one of the most important aspects of it. They don't wish to be able to be arrested for things such as being an illegal immigrant so the wall will have no effect on them. It'll also only stop those immigrants who can't afford to pay gangs from coming in or resulting in them working for gangs to afford to come into the U.S. smuggling drugs in with them or dealing in drugs once in America to fund the debt they gained from coming into the Nation.

[edit on 14/10/2005 by Odium]