No wonder why Al Qaida is targeting other Muslims without remorse.

en.wikipedia.org...

Sayyid Qutb (9 October 1906 in Musha – executed on 29 August 1966) was an important theoretician of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood.

Alternative spellings of his "first" and "last" names include Syed, Koteb (rather common), Qutub, etc. Arabic: سيد قطب

He first received a religious education in 1920. He moved to Cairo, where he received a Western education between 1929 and 1933, before starting his career as a teacher in the Ministry of Public Instruction. During his early career, Qutb devoted himself to literature as an author and critic, writing such novels as Ashwak (Thorns) and even elevating Egyptian novelist Naguib Mahfouz from obscurity. In 1939 he became a functionary in Egypt's Ministry of Education (wizarat al-ma'arif). From 1948 to 1950 he went to the United States on a scholarship to study the educational system, receiving a master's degree from the Colorado State College of Education (now the University of Northern Colorado). Qutb's first major theoretical work of religious social criticism, Al-'adala al-Ijtima'iyya fi-l-Islam (Social Justice in Islam), was published in 1949, during his time overseas.


The vivid freedom, liberty, pursuit of happiness and the emancipation of women he experienced in the United States is believed by some to have been the impetus for his rejection of Western values and his move towards radicalism upon returning to Egypt. Resigning from the civil service, he became perhaps the most persuasive publicist of the Muslim Brotherhood. The school of thought he inspired has become known as Qutbism.

en.wikipedia.org...

Qutbism is the Islamic strain of thought and activism, or ideology, based on the thought and writings of Sayyid Qutb. The term Qutbee is used as a name for followers of these ideals, but the term is more often used as a negative label by Wahhabis or other critics, people who disagree with the Muslim Brotherhood, or want to distance themselves from the activities of militant groups whose ideology and activism is based on Sayyid Qutb's writings. "Qutbees" usually do not refer to themselves using this name.

The main tenet of Qutbist ideology is the belief that almost all of Islam is heading into the era of pre-Islamic Arabs or Jahiliyya, and must be reconquered. It is one of the two main strands of Salafi thought, the other being Wahhabism.

Qutb outlined his ideas in his book Milestones. The main principle of Qutbism is clearly stated when Qutb writes that "Muslims have drifted away from their religion and their way of life, and have forgotten that Islam appointed them as representatives of God and made them responsible for learning all the sciences and developing various capabilities to fulfill this high position which God has granted them."

Qutb encouraged Muslims to seek knowledge. In Milestones he states:

A Muslim can go to a Muslim or to a non-Muslim to learn abstract sciences such as chemistry, physics, biology, astronomy, medicine, industry, agriculture, administration (limited to its technical aspects), technology, military arts and similar sciences and arts; although the fundamental principle is that when the Muslim community comes into existence it should provide experts in all these fields in abundance, as all these sciences and arts are a sufficient obligation (Fard al-Kifayah) on Muslims (that is to say, there ought to be a sufficient number of people who specialize in these various sciences and arts to satisfy the needs of the community). If a proper atmosphere is not provided under which these sciences and arts develop in a Muslim society, the whole society will be considered sinful; but as long as these conditions are not attained, it is permitted for a Muslim to learn them from a Muslim or a non-Muslim and to gain experience under his direction, without any distinction of religion.
Qutb freely uses the word "Jahiliyya" repeatedly in Milestones to refer to Arabs who have gone backwards in their reasoning to the pre-Islamic era. The word Jahiliyya in Arabic means "moral ignorance". In light of the quest for knowledge, he encourages Muslims to read books by Jahilis. In one passage, Qutb writes:

en.wikipedia.org...

Jahiliyyah is an Islamic concept referring to the spiritual condition of pre-Islamic Arabian society. It is described as a state of ignorance of God's message.

"When a person embraced Islam during the time of the Prophet-peace be on him-he would immediately cut himself off from Jahiliyyah. [The state of ignorance of the guidance from God.] When he stepped into the circle of Islam, he would start a new life, separating himself completely from his past life under ignorance of the Divine Law. He would look upon the deeds during his life of ignorance with mistrust and fear, with a feeling that these were impure and could not be tolerated in Islam! With this feeling, he would turn toward Islam for new guidance; and if at any time temptations overpowered him, or the old habits attracted him, or if he became lax in carrying out the injunctions of Islam, he would become restless with a sense of guilt and would feel the need to purify himself of what had happened, and would turn to the Qur'an to mold himself according to its guidance."

en.wikipedia.org...

Wahhabism is the official form of Islam in Saudi Arabia. In 1924 the Wahhabi al-Saud dynasty conquered Mecca and Medina, cities holy to Muslims, creating the Saudi state. The spread of Wahhabi Islam has been facilitated by Saudi oil revenues; Saudi laypeople, government officials and clerics have donated many tens of millions of dollars to create Wahhabi-oriented religious schools, newspapers and outreach organizations.

Some Wahhabis believe that many Muslim Brotherhood scholars — Sayyid Qutb and Yusuf al-Qaradawi are sometimes cited — are corrupted due to their innovations in Islam, and their call to revolution and rebellion against the rulers of Muslim countries. For the same reason, they hold that Osama bin Laden is not a Wahhabi, but a Qutbee (follower of Sayyid Qutb), due to his rebellion against the rulers of Saudi Arabia.

Many contend that Wahhabism is or has become a dominant form of Islam through proselytization driven by Saudi funding; others contend that its influence is less widespread and that the practice and observance of Wahhabism and the political manifestations that flow therefrom are more nuanced than its most doctrinaire interpretations.

it seems to me that Osama and his cronies have no qualms in intentionally targeting Muslims who they view as apostates. they believe they have Allah's backing to kill those who they view as moving away in the belief of Allah even though the people they killed are Muslims. it seems they want to recreate the once might Islamic empire that spread from Europe to Africa to Asia before its destruction. The Shiites, Jews, Hindus, and other Muslims who disagree with his view are being targeted. if u are not with them, then they would view u as their problem instead of the solution. also they view the U.S. as responsible for getting Muslims to "abandon" or turn away their religion even though we have no evidence of such. so Osama is trying to get rid of America's influence, everything from culture, to military, to political influence. American culture is becoming popular in everyday life of Muslims and they start acting almost like Americans. thats why u see young Muslims in Europe or America goin to mosques and changing themselves wen they be comin out and concerning their parents who sees sudden changed by them. they become extreme, Muslim extremists would try to say that America is causing their suffering of being alienated, no job, no life, etc, so they must help fight America and in return Allah would reward them. if martyrdom thats even a better award, a magic carpet ride to paradise and 72 virgins to have yer hands on.

it seems to me they are cloaking themselves in religion to inspire martyers and achieve financial and political gains.

What are you talking about in the thread that Al Qaeda is targetting Muslims without remorse?

Is it because the US government says Al Qaeda is behind every single carbomb and murder in Iraq of Iraqi civilians? That it's not insurgents but "foreign fighters" who take their orders from the evil psychopath Al Zarqawi?

Isn't the US government targetting Muslims without remorse too? No body counts? Why do THEY do it?

Originally posted by Jakomo

What are you talking about in the thread that Al Qaeda is targetting Muslims without remorse?

havent u seen transcripts and quotes of Al Qaeda members who vow to target Shiites who are Muslims and Muslims that are moderates or that dont follow Osama's views?

Is it because the US government says Al Qaeda is behind every single carbomb and murder in Iraq of Iraqi civilians? That it's not insurgents but "foreign fighters" who take their orders from the evil psychopath Al Zarqawi?

dont have to be from the govt. wen Zarqawi himself has proclaimed it himself that he and his group declares war against Shiite Muslims.

Isn't the US government targetting Muslims without remorse too? No body counts? Why do THEY do it?

we are intentionally targeting Muslims in our view that all Muslims must be wiped out? dont remember dat. not to mention we compensate for Muslims caught in the crossfire wen fighting in urban combat. i dont remember seeing Al Qaeda ever apologizin for killing Muslims and willing to pay for their losses. i dont remember dat. we seem to be saving Muslims like for example in Bosnia or Kosovo. or the no fly zone in south of Iraq during Saddam's reign. if we wanted to kill Muslims with no remorse than the casualty count would be over a billion by now u know?

[edit on 29-9-2005 by deltaboy]

deltaboy:

dont have to be from the govt. wen Zarqawi himself has proclaimed it himself that he and his group declares war against Shiite Muslims.

No actually, ACCORDING to the govt, Zarqawi declares war against the Sh'ites. All the Zarqawi quotes usually come through the CIA or the Bush Administration.

not to mention we compensate for Muslims caught in the crossfire wen fighting in urban combat. i dont remember seeing Al Qaeda ever apologizin for killing Muslims and willing to pay for their losses.

Firstly, the US army DOES NOT compensate the families of those who have had members killed "accidentally" by U.S. troops. Neither do they apologize.

if we wanted to kill Muslims with no remorse than the casualty count would be over a billion by now u know?

If you had any remorse your Administration would actually tabulate civilian body counts. They don't. That shows the level of importance they place on the lives of civilians.

"We don't do body counts"

pfft.

Originally posted by Jakomo


Firstly, the US army DOES NOT compensate the families of those who have had members killed "accidentally" by U.S. troops. Neither do they apologize.

www.newsmax.com...

WASHINGTON -- The U.S. Army's 1st Armored Division last week paid $11,000 to the three surviving members of a family killed at an American military checkpoint in Baghdad Aug. 7.
The al-Kawas family is nevertheless pursuing a lawsuit against the U.S. military for unlawful death and possibly war crimes with the help of an Irish law firm Madden & Finucane.

Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the commander of coalition military forces in Iraq, directed the 1st Armored Division to pay off the family after six protestors disrupted one of his news conferences in Baghdad over the al-Kawas family's plight.

The protestors from Voices in the Wilderness were escorted out of the room and barred from attending future news conferences, but they had achieved an important goal: focusing high-level attention on at least a few of the civilian victims of the continuing Iraqi war.

The U.S. military has paid more than $400,000 to more than 2,000 Iraqis who can make claims against the U.S. government for property damage, injury and death, but the Sept. 24 payment is one of the largest yet. The al-Kawas family is also one of the more egregious cases

wat was dat u say again Jakomo? can u repeat that again to make certain yer sure the U.S. Army does not compensate to the Iraqi families? embarrassing u may be wrong? maybe we do apologize and compensate. i still havent heard of Al Qaeda compensating or apologizing for accidental deaths from their attacks.

deltaboy:

wat was dat u say again Jakomo? can u repeat that again to make certain yer sure the U.S. Army does not compensate to the Iraqi families? embarrassing u may be wrong?

Um, no, I'm not embarassed to be wrong at all. Because actually, you are.

Read the artcle that YOU actually linked.

Under military rules, the Kawas family should not be eligible for compensation for wrongful death because they were killed during an ongoing military operation. Although President Bush declared the end of major fighting May 1, they are "combat excluded" casualties, killed in an act of war and therefore not entitled to the up to $50,000 available for each person under the Foreign Claims Act.

So, let's review that.

should not be eligible for compensation for wrongful death because they were killed during an ongoing military operation

So, any Iraqis killed by the US military during a military operation are ineligible for ANY compensation.

Is it embarassing to know so little about your own country's arrogant policies? Hmm?

Originally posted by Jakomo
deltaboy:

wat was dat u say again Jakomo? can u repeat that again to make certain yer sure the U.S. Army does not compensate to the Iraqi families? embarrassing u may be wrong?

Under military rules, the Kawas family should not be eligible for compensation for wrongful death because they were killed during an ongoing military operation. Although President Bush declared the end of major fighting May 1, they are "combat excluded" casualties, killed in an act of war and therefore not entitled to the up to $50,000 available for each person under the Foreign Claims Act.

So, let's review that.

should not be eligible for compensation for wrongful death because they were killed during an ongoing military operation

So, any Iraqis killed by the US military during a military operation are ineligible for ANY compensation.

Is it embarassing to know so little about your own country's arrogant policies? Hmm?

arrogant? the source says the U.S. Army is paying for damages. so much for following the rules of not paying. and u say the Army dont pay.

deltaboy:

arrogant? the source says the U.S. Army is paying for damages. so much for following the rules of not paying. and u say the Army dont pay.

Try reading EVERY word instead of every third or fourth.

Under military rules, the Kawas family should not be eligible for compensation for wrongful death because they were killed during an ongoing military operation. Although President Bush declared the end of major fighting May 1, they are "combat excluded" casualties, killed in an act of war and therefore not entitled to the up to $50,000 available for each person under the Foreign Claims Act.

So, according to the RULES, these people should not have received compensation.

But because the soldiers pretty much blew away her entire family at a checkpoint, they coughed up a few grand.

She was in the family car with her three children and husband when they were killed. Only she, her then-unborn son, and her 13-year old daughter survived...

...The troops opened fire on the family car, a four-door sedan. Killed were 36-year old father, Adel, his 16-year old daughter, Olaa, 18-year old Haydar, his son, and 8-year old daughter Mervat.

Only Hadil and the pregnant Anwar lived through the hail of bullets. Hadil has six pieces of shrapnel in her skull, and at least three more in her hip and leg, according to her X-rays.

Four bullet holes pierce the car's windshield. Dozens more blew out every other window in the car. Blood stains the glass-covered seats, and small pieces of human tissue speckled the ceiling...

The payment to the al-Kawas family took nearly two months and followed a long and tortuous path. They were approached at least twice by representatives from the 1st AD or their Iraqi emissaries, but no paperwork was filled out, and no apologies were offered. It was not until Sanchez' order went out that the money was arranged.

So her husband and two sons are killed at a checkpoint and she gets 11 grand. And according to military rules, SHE SHOULDN'T RECEIVE ANYTHING.


Read the article again if you want, you'll see that the rules are NO COMPENSATION.


yeesh

jako

and i say the U.S. Army decided to ignore their own rules. sheeeesh. man can u see the Army could just ignore the family and look the other way but they still went ahead and pay for it, even if the military's policy is not to compensate to some 2000 Iraqi families. have u see Al Qaeda ever feeling guilty about not compensating for the victims? have u?

as u have say the Army does not compensate the victims, but the Army decides to ignore that rule. wat does dat tell u huh?

If you had any remorse your Administration would actually tabulate civilian body counts. They don't. That shows the level of importance they place on the lives of civilians.

You're kidding, right? Do you know anything about war? Oh, that's right... you're from Canada! Well listen to this, eh! Why on Earth would we risk the lives of our soldiers to go searching around in a hostile war zone just to count the number of civilian casualties so that the newspapers have something to write about? And how exactly do we distinguish who is a civilian and who is a terrorist/insurgent when our enemies refuse to wear uniforms and hide behind women and children?

We leave it up to the local Iraqi government, as well as the hospitals, to report any civilian casualties. It's up to the local Iraqi's who know themselves who is a regular civilian and who is an insurgent. But if you prefer, I'll gladly pay for a one-way ticket to Baghdad and a clicker so you can go around and tally up all the civilan casualties while bullets and RPG's are whizzing by your head. Or better yet, maybe we should send over the Canadian Military to do the body counts. I'm sure they can handle that job, right? I mean they've basically been unemployed for the past 60 years I think its about time that we give our inbred friends to the North something to do!

It's almost comical how you're ripping the US for not giving money to the families of civilian casualties. As a country, we have done more than any other nation in history to avoid civilian casualties during wartime. We've spent billions upon billions of dollars to develop weapons that yield as few civilian casualties as possible. In fact, if we truly didn't care about civilian casualties and if we truly wanted to kill as many Muslims as we could (as you so ignorantly suggest) then we would have went through that country like a bunch of drunken pirates and been out of there in 6 months- mission truly accomplished. Instead we have to cater to people such as you who want us to take every single measure, even at the expense of losing American lives and not winning battles, to ensure that no civilians are killed. If we were really the nation you try to make us out to be then there wouldn't be a single Muslim left breathing on the planet Earth and we'd have control over every single nation.

I think its time you put the pipe down and come back to reality, eh?

You have voted Rasputin13 for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

*clap clap*

Originally posted by Rasputin13


Or better yet, maybe we should send over the Canadian Military to do the body counts. I'm sure they can handle that job, right? I mean they've basically been unemployed for the past 60 years I think its about time that we give our inbred friends to the North something to do!

The past 60 years has included enough military involvement for the Canadian Armed Forces. I don't think you need a history lesson because we are still currently in Afghanistan helping the US root out terrorists there.

On the 'inbred thing', I really don't think such a tag helps your argument and is really just trolling unless you can prove that inbreeding through scientific method.

Otherwise I agree with the rest of your thread in that it is a war zone and things get fuzzy when you can't tell a 'friendly' from a combatant. The same situation existed in Viet Nam and wound up getting a lot of civilians killed because of that fact.

BTW...no pipes for me either...I hate drugs and what they can do to a mind, even the ones my doctor wants to give me for pain.

Maybe we can just stick to debating facts instead of maligning entire countries and accusing members of drug use.

It amazes me what some people get WATS for...



[edit on 3-10-2005 by masqua]

Originally posted by deltaboy
it seems to me that Osama and his cronies have no qualms in intentionally targeting Muslims who they view as apostates. they believe they have Allah's backing to kill those who they view as moving away in the belief of Allah even though the people they killed are Muslims.

I'm sorry but, from what part of the above did you get that? It looks like these Qutbees beleive that other muslims are 'ignorant' or even 'pre-moral', but where's it say that they can be executed as if they were apostates? If you are extending from the idea that these qutbytes are saying that many muslims are going back to Jahiliyyah, and that, because the pagan arabs were as such, that therefore anyone that is Jahiliyyah-lic is therefore an apostate, well that sounds reasonable but is it strongly implied by the language of these Qutbytes?

Also, from the wikientry on Qutbism:

The Muslim Brotherhood does no do takfir or declare Shia Muslims as apostates, unlike Wahabis and Bin Laden.

Originally posted by Nygdan

I'm sorry but, from what part of the above did you get that? It looks like these Qutbees beleive that other muslims are 'ignorant' or even 'pre-moral', but where's it say that they can be executed as if they were apostates? If you are extending from the idea that these qutbytes are saying that many muslims are going back to Jahiliyyah, and that, because the pagan arabs were as such, that therefore anyone that is Jahiliyyah-lic is therefore an apostate, well that sounds reasonable but is it strongly implied by the language of these Qutbytes?

Some Wahhabi Muslims were outraged by the alleged linkage between Osama bin Laden and Wahhabism brought up by Western writers. Some Wahhabis claimed Osama bin Laden in fact disagreed with Wahhabism, as shown by Bin Laden's quote about a Saudi governmental body of scholars "An idol to be worshipped aside from God."

Some Wahhabis say that Bin Laden is influenced by Qutbee ideology, and is in fact a "Qutbee". Osama bin Laden himself has never identified himself with a particular sect of Islam, but was raised in Wahabi Saudi Arabia, in a Wahabi family, but Wahabis claim he has been influenced by the writings of the Muslim Brotherhood and Sayyid Qutb. Bin Laden himself quotes Ibn Taymiya frequently, a medievel scholar that Wahabis often refer to, and his theology is much closer to Wahabi theology, rather than the Muslim Brotherhood's. The Muslim Brotherhood does no do takfir or declare Shia Muslims as apostates, unlike Wahabis and Bin Laden.

Bin Laden's recent audio tape accepting the allegiance of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi who has been said to follow Salafi or Wahabi Islam has proven that Bin Laden at least has Qutbist and Wahabi or Salafi tendencies.

i said that Osama and his cronies follow some Qutbism but i didnt mean that all people who follow the Qutbism ideology. however he is influenced by it for he sees the wat Qut sees in the world where Muslims seem to in Osama's view turning away from their religion.

where Muslims seem to in Osama's view turning away from their religion.

Yes, but otehr groups think that too, like the Wahhabists, and unlike the wahhabists, the Qutbytes don't consider muslims who've fallen back into ignorance to be apostates, who can be, and possibly are encouraged to be, persecuted.

edit to clarify-
So they're probably favourable of this qutbitism, because it permits them to overthrow the government, even if that government is in accord and approved as 'islamic' by the groups of clerics, but they're getting the "Jahiliyyah" makes one an apostate from a different ideology. Well, really, just intolerance. Bin Ladin's a bigot, is another way of saying it, and a murderous one at that.

[edit on 3-10-2005 by Nygdan]