Meier Case on C2C

Horn is an eloquent speaker, and an excellent debater, no question.
He's intelligent, articulate, and will no doubt make himself and Meier a lot of money....

However, there is simply no defending "evidence" offered like this:



No matter HOW eloquent you are. It is simply laughable.

Check the Meier debate thread...both sides presented probably more Meier pics, prophecies, and other evidence than are likely to be found in any other thread, and in the end, even Meier defenders could see that this is a hoax.

"Horn is an eloquent speaker, and an excellent debater, no question.
He's intelligent, articulate, and will no doubt make himself and Meier a lot of money...." Gazrok.

Wondering if the picture is digital? Interesting shot but suppose know one said the ray gun it had to be sleak, polished design (laugh!).
Will look into the shot further. Thanks.

Dallas

No, it's an old photo. I confirmed through e-mail to Mr. Horn (during that old thread) that these pics are indeed Billy's, and not someone trying to discredit him. E-mail Mr. Horn yourself if you wish, [email protected] and ask him yourself.

EDIT: There exists a photo of Billy holding the ray gun too, so really no dice there, hehe....

Just thought of an interesting example of this...debunker vs. skeptic...

I thought Kal K. was a real investigator but i believe that he's just pretends to play as a debunker but don't really know what debunking means??????

When I was researching the Mantell case, I went in with the idea that a UFO was likely responsible for his death...but I was open to all possibilities, I was skeptical, but only cautiously so. I fully expected to find more evidence pointing to a UFO than to anything else. However, when closely looking at witness statements, Mantell's behavior, and other facts, a Skyhook balloon explanation fit all of the pieces together and logically fit all of the accounts. In the end, that's the answer the evidence pointed to, so that was that. Debunkers though, don't operate like that. They go into a case like Roswell and simply ignore that which doesn't support their original position of it being a terrestrial craft. Some even try to deny anything happened there at all (completely ignoring the Army's own press statement to the contrary).

[edit on 17-8-2005 by Gazrok]

Wow....that picture is awful. I'd never seen it before. Tin foil guns?
One thing about that picture....the woman holding the "ray gun" has 5 fingers. Plejarans are supposed to have 6...

Just sent a note of enquiry to Michael Horn. Need to hear from him myself on a couple of matters re this thread.

Dallas

Originally posted by Flinx

He mentioned that Meier said 2 small planetoids would be discovered beyond Pluto. Well as we all know, this recently happened. That program was early 2004... I wonder if the other seemingly accurate predictions can be substantiated. Horn said that these predictions were in a book published whenever...sometime before the events happened. Does anyone know of this book?

[edit on 8/15/2005 by Flinx]

The objects beyond Pluto have been thought to exist since the planet's discovery.

Just wondering if you might share more info on that, such as by whom? That would surely clear up that area of Meier's writings.

Dallas

noone has ever been able to reproduce these photos, because as soon as you start to try, you begin to laugh so hard you go into spasms.

Is that a toy car in the last picture? I mean really...

I'm a wee bit bothered by the first picture with the Ray Gun. Either the negative's reversed or it's on the opposite arm?

Dallas

Hi Guys,

Just dropped in to see what condition, etc.

A couple of notes for the record, I am not paid by Meier and Meier isn’t paid by me. I represent the case voluntarily. There really are easier ways to make a living.

I’m just gonna drop some info in for examination since the issue of prophetic accuracy has apparently come up. And please note that the documents in which Meier published the prophetic information (as well as in the books) were deliberately created in an UNALTERABLE form, i.e. each sentence spoken by one of the ETs was numbered sequentially so as to eliminate the possibility that Meier could do what he would ultimately be accused of doing – back dating, inserting info, etc. It was made further IMPOSSIBLE by the widespread dissemination of these documents, as well as the books. No one has ever come forward to show that their copy of a transcript differed from what is on record and reported.

I also will copy my answer to the question re the gun and the hole in the tree. I should also add that Meier’s first UFO photos were taken in 1964…up to EIGHT craft in the pictures (still available).

Please read the sound analysis doc at www.theyfly.com, you will see that the unique characteristics were anything but guitar amp feedback, etc. Really, three different sound labs including the Naval Undersea Sound Lab and NONE of them could identify the source or duplicate the sounds.

Please don’t be angry about the length of following as it represents but a fraction of the corroborating information in the case.

I won’t be sticking around for a debate, it’s in all of your able hands. I will try to answer emails as time permits. If anyone here is in L.A. on Friday, September 2, I’m making a special presentation for the press (and other normal people) at the NUFOC in Hollywood. Y’all come on down git yerselfs a soooovenear!

MH

7th Contact, February 25, 1975 and 35th Contact, September 16th, 1975:
Connection of A-bomb testing, explosions to ozone damage, high frequency “elementary radiations” unknown to terrestrial scientists, damage to Earth’s rotation, magnetic disturbances, polar displacement; contribution of bromine gases to ozone damage, penetration of UV through holes killing microorganisms, leading to disruptions in food chain, genetic mutations, other long term negative effects for humans and the planet

Corroborated: November 29, 1988, published report from Lawrence Livermore National Laboratories announced this “new discovery”: ATOM BOMB TESTING TIED TO OZONE DEPLETION, 13 years after Meier had already published it. Consider that this damage was first mentioned to Meier during a contact on February 4, 1956, when he was just 19 years old, an astonishing 32 years before the Livermore announcement. The extraterrestrial woman, Asket, specifically referred to some of the catastrophic damage done to the environment, humans and other life forms by atomic bombs. She pointed out that the great atmospheric disturbance would result in climate changes, adverse weather conditions and lead to genetic mutations in plants, animals and humans as well.

Corroborated: National Public Radio, 1991, confirmed connection between bromine gases and ozone layer damage

Corroborated: Los Angeles Times, February 24, 1992: OZONE HOLE DAMAGES FOOD CHAIN, confirming the connection between the UV passing through the ozone hole and genetic mutations and damage to the food chain.

45th Contact, February 25, 1976: Semjase (Meier’s extraterrestrial female contactor) warned him that our extraction of petroleum and natural gas from the Earth, damming of waters, construction of huge cities were major contributing factors to increased earthquake and volcanic activity

Corroborated: The Good Life-Independent Journal newspaper, June 27, 1990: EARTHQUAKES, OIL INTER-ACT

29th Contact, July 7, 1975 and 31st Contact, July 17, 1975: Specific information about Venus, unknown at the time, including: composition of atmospheric gases, surface temperatures, depth of clouds, wind speeds, atmospheric pressure, coloration, variation in terrain, etc.

Corroborated: By probes from both US (August 1976) and USSR (October 1975)

Corroborated: February 1981, USGS was producing a topographical map of Venus which, it was discovered by the investigative team, further confirmed the details Meier had published…5 years earlier

31st Contact, July 17, 1975: Semjase informed Meier that Mt. Chimborazo was highest mountain on Earth, contrary to Meier’s belief that it was Mt. Everset

Corroborated: June 1996 issue of Earth magazine, 21 years later (NOTE: It has been accurately pointed out that this information may have been known or published by other sources…not shown to be known to Meier.)

115th Contact, October 19, 1978: Meier describes existence of Jupiter’s rings, says composed mainly of dust, particles, sulfur ions flung off by volcanoes on Io, describes Io as most volcanically active body in solar system, smooth, level-surfaced, no water; describes Europa as ice-encrusted; Jupiter said to have 17 actual moons (Plejaren don’t consider all of Jupiter’s satellites meet their standards of moons); describes nature of Jupiter’s huge funnel-shaped storm

Corroborated: March 5, 1979, NASA’s Voyager 1 probe discovers rings of Jupiter, Io most volcanically active body in solar system, Europa covered in ice…5 months after Meier published information

Corroborated: September 15, 1998, Cornell University scientists confirm particulate composition of rings from Jupiter’s moons (first theorized by astronomers August 2, 1995) Meier’s information is 20 years ahead of Cornell’s

Corroborated: April 2003, Dr. Joseph Veverka, Chairman Astronomy Department, Cornell University, regarding my informing him of Meier’s information that Io is most volcanically active body in solar system, “If he said that about Io, 3 to 6 months before, then all I can say is that he’s right.” (NOTE: This was referred to by NASA as the most important discovery of that mission.)

Here is an excerpt of additional information regarding the actual ancient, and as yet unknown to our scientists, origins of the rings of Jupiter:

150th Contact, October 10, 1981

Century B.C. - 13,384
Orbital Period 714 years

Quetzal: …‘Destroyer’ is moving on a collision course with Jupiter and disturbs its rotation, while it races so closely past the outer layers, that within these a gigantic storm is created in rotating manner, which reaches into the innermost layers. The mass of Jupiter breaks at the close-point to the matter of the ‘Destroyer’ and gathers a particle- and moon-ring around itself, which will continue to exist for millions of years, together with the original particle- and moon-ring existing already for approximately four billion years, into which the new ring will be integrated. The gigantic whirling storm, which already developed in most ancient times on the giant planet, has nothing to do with the ‘Destroyer’.

At the same time, when the ‘Destroyer’ passes the Jupiter system, it tears an old small-size moon of approximately 4 kilometer diameter out of its orbit which, at enormous speed flies out into the space of the SOL-system on an unknown orbital path, and is accompanied by several smaller asteroids. At first, this moon is lost on a very far orbital path, when it appears again after a long time and moves through the SOL-system - again and again, until someday it will be captured by Jupiter again and crash down on it which, according to our calculations, will be around the period of time, when the change from the twentieth to the twenty-first century A.D. will come.

Additional explanation regarding the same comet:
(Excerpt from Contact #248, February 3, 1994)

Billy: But now I have another question: In the contact report of Saturday, October 10th, 1981, at 3:15 A.M. Quetzal mentioned that, due to the ‘Destroyer’, a small moon of approximately 4 kilometer diameter was torn away from Jupiter during the year 13,384 B.C., and taken on a course which, in addition was followed by several small asteroids. The discussion revealed that, some day, this small moon would return to its point of origin again, namely to Jupiter, in order to crash down on it. The following in this reference: Earthly scientists have discovered, that presently a small planetoid of approximately 4 kilometer diameter is approaching Jupiter on a collision course, accompanied by several asteroids in its tow. According to scientific calculations, this small planetoid, called Shoemaker-Levy 9, will crash down on Jupiter by the middle of the year 1994, which will be barely behind the visible horizon from the Earth. Does this small planetoid refer to the small moon Quetzal mentioned, which went on its journey from Jupiter during the year 13,384 B.C., and which is now ‘celebrating’ its return to its place of origin, or does this refer to a different space missile from outer space?

Ptaah: This actually refers to the small moon Quetzal mentioned and which, with absolute certainty, will again come into the magnetic field of Jupiter.

Corroborated: July 16 through July 22, 1994

Additional information from 115th Contact, October 19, 1978, accidentally given to lead investigator, Col. Wendelle Stevens, USAF (Ret.), shown by him to Maj. Rudolph Pestalozzi, USAF (Ret.) and Mr. O. Richard Norton, former director Flandreau Planetarium, Tucson, Arizona. Witnessed by the three men, the information was secured until after the following specific, predicted events occurred:

• Jonestown massacre (Nov. 18, 1978)
• Overthrow of the Shah of Iran (Jan. 1979)
• Chinese invasion of North Vietnam (Feb./Mar. 1979)
• Soviet invasion of Afghanistan (Dec. 1979)
• Abdication of Queen Juliana of The Netherlands (Apr. 1980)
• Death of Tito of Yugoslavia (May 4, 1980)
• Mount St Helens eruption (May 18, 1980)
• Terrorist attack on Iranian Embassy in London (Apr./May1980)
• Iran Hostage Crisis (Nov. 1979/Jan. 1981)
• Assassination of Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi (Oct. 31, 1984)

1978: In a Wasserman publication Meier foretells launch of telescope at end of 1980s that would make unfathomable discoveries in space, writes that a comet would be discovered in late 1980s to early 1990s that would be named Toutatis, may threaten Earth in September 2004

Corroborated: Hubble telescope launched April 1990

Corroborated: 1989, French astronomers discover comet, named it…Toutatis, predicted to come closest to Earth September 29, 2004

1978, 1992: In his book, Existing Life in the Universe, Meier states that there are two small planetary bodies outside Pluto’s orbit, he calls them Trans-Pluto and Uni, says scientists will discover in not too distant future

Corroborated: July 3, 2001, October 7, 2002, BBC reports that scientists have discovered a new planet beyond Pluto

150th Contact, October 10th, 1981: Meier discussed information concerning the 29 actual moons of Saturn, origins of moons from asteroids

Corroborated: November 2000, scientists announced discovery of 12 moons orbiting Saturn bringing the “official” total number to 28, just one shy of what Meier reported almost 20 years earlier, scientist corroborates origin of moons as likely from asteroid

215th Contact, February 28, 1987: Known as the Henoch (or Enoch) Prophecies, this contact contained a forewarning of the destruction of the WTC by terrorism, the series of worldwide wars that the US would subsequently launch and military actions involving Russia, China, France, Germany, Spain, England, Scandinavia and many Third World and other countries

Corroborated: The WTC was destroyed on September 11, 2001, the US has already attacked Afghanistan and Iraq as of this writing

235th Contact, February 3, 1990: Meier is told about an earthquake that will occur on February 28, 1990 in California. During this same contact the eruption of the Redoubt volcano in Alaska is predicted for the same date.

Corroborated: This was indeed the date of the Upland earthquake in California. The activity of the Redoubt volcano actually began on February 21 and continued through February 28 with more activity following in March.

241st Contact, February 3, 1992: Contained these specific Corroborated warnings about:

• Landslide in Brazil of March 1992
• Nuclear accident in Russia during 3rd week of March, occurred on March 27, 1992
• Landers earthquake in L. A. foreseen April 23rd or 24th, 1992, occurred April 22, 1992
• Eruption of Mt. Etna in April 1992, reported April 15, 1992
• Eruption of Cerro Negro in Nicaragua in April 1992, occurred April 9-12, 1992
• Earthquakes Germany-Holland-Belgium area for April 1992, occurred April 13, 1992
• Earthquakes China-Burma April 1992, occurred Myanmaw-China border April 23, 1992

Still speculative: 249th Contact, June 13th, 1994: (In response to question Meier asked regarding Mad Cow Disease), Ptaah stated, “BSE pathogens cannot be destroyed by simply cooking the meat and other items, or by producing meat meal”, and that the temperatures necessary for killing the disease-causing prions would need to be, “as high as 700 C (1292 F), and possibly even up to 1000 C (1832 F), for previously mutated pathogens that have existed for some time now.” Our scientists have been raising their own estimates as to the temperatures necessary to destroy the disease-causing prions and are now more closely approaching the temperatures that the Plejaren, Ptaah, stated.

Other recently corroborated events:

1. The Swiss Military Airspace Safety Monitoring Unit reported recording 236 UFO radar sightings in the airspace above Meier's land between the 25-month period from April 1, 1993 to April 31, 1995. Particularly noteworthy were the clusters of UFO radar positions above the Zurich highlands — precisely in the area where Billy Meier has his contacts.

Note: By identifying the sightings as "UFOs" the Swiss military itself has ruled out any and all other types of known flying objects such as commercial and military aircraft, balloons, birds, etc. And by acknowledging radar installations precisely in the area where Meier has his contacts this alone should put to rest any doubts about the authenticity of Meier's UFO contacts.

2. Contact 251, Feb.3, 1995: Meier foretells the future of animal food production and the “growing” of meat in laboratories.
Corroborated: July 6, 2005 Univ. of Maryland scientists propose techniques for growing meat in vitro. Reported in June 29 issue of Tissue Engineering.

Meier published information 10 years before "official" discovery.

3. Contact 150, 10 Oct. 1981: Meier publishes information about planetary system with 3 suns and 16 planets.
Corroborated: July 15, 2005 New proof that these complex planetary systems involving 3 suns actually exist: "Before now we had no clues about whether planets could form in such gravitationally complex systems," said Dr. Konacki, of the California Institute of Technology.

Meier published information 24 years before "official" discovery.

4. Contact 136, October 14, 1980: Meier given info re Vesuvius’ extended magma chambers, unknown at the time.
Corroborated: 2002 Geotimes publishes first articles on newly discovered magma chambers extending 400 sq. kms. below Vesuvius.

Meier published information 22 years before "official" discovery.

5. Contact 172, July 4, 1982: Meier told that Vatican banker Roberto Calvi was strangled (not a suicide as first reported), not to talk about it for 20 years.
Corroborated: 2005 Arrests were made, police allege Calvi was…strangled

Meier published information 23 years before "official" discovery.

6. Contact 215, February 28, 1987: Quetzal tells Meier, “It will be the year 2002 when officially a genetic technical experiment/attempt will become known in which plant and animal genes will be combined. About this we have made probability calculations, which attest that this all will happen in Japan, and indeed in the sense that, spinach genes will be transferred into pigs.”
Corroborated: January 2002 News reports confirm that Japanese scientists have indeed implanted spinach genes into pigs.

Meier published information 15 years before "official" discovery.
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A few notes on the sounds (no pun intended):

“…Now, the sound specialists examined this new segment of the recorded sounds and found the same as the previous teams. They found these sounds to be truly unique in three respects:

1. There were at least thirty or more discrete frequencies in a random and constantly shifting mix that ranged from 4 to 2170 Hz, but varied on average between 470 and 1452 Hz.

2. The amplitude of these frequencies was also constantly changing, whereby the dominance alternated.

3. The wave shape was also constantly changing in a random, periodic rhythm that caused a characteristic beat. The wave pattern in the oscilloscope showed this constant and random shift in frequency, in which the principal waves of all frequencies came together in perfect synchronization at one moment, only to travel at the next moment in different directions and stages, thereby generating different patterns—at one moment seemingly moving in a cluster in one direction and, at the next moment, in the other direction. Then they gradually expanded until, for one moment, they formed a mutually precise and evenly distributed pattern, only then to move again into different relationships. Although these changes appeared to be random and were not repeated in a particular order, they always appeared in geometric relationship to one another.

Two other sound engineers and a synthesizer sound specialist joined the analysis team, and the sounds were reexamined, this time for possible duplication. All of these specialists agreed that the character of the sounds was unique and that any type of synthesis, if in fact such was possible, could produce only portions of the recordings we had examined and that duplicating only part of the sounds, even in a short linear segment, would be impossible. The number of traveling and constantly shifting discrete frequencies and constantly changing amplitudes, which were shifting in relative dominance, exhibited duplication problems that exceed the abilities of a current state-of-the-art device!”
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Scientific Experts’ Comments on Meier’s Evidence

From Author Gary Kinder’s “Open Letter to the UFO Community”

David Froning: At the time, Dr. Froning had already spent 25 years as an astronautical engineer at McDonnell Douglas in highly classified military defense and, in 1979, became interested in Meier’s accounts of Plejaren starship travel, which mentioned tachyon propulsion. Dr. Froning found Meier's account of tachyon propulsion (which was only beginning to be discussed by a very small and select group of theoretical physicists), and his calculations for above light speed travel to be amazing. In 1983, he was pursuing his Quantum Interstellar Ramjet idea (JBIS vol. 33, no. 7, July 1980; AIAA 81-1533, July1981; IAF-85-492, October, 1985) and plugged in his Quantum Ramjet performance equations, assuming: a given starship density, vacuum energy conversion efficiency (in transforming positrons and electrons within the quantum vacuum into photons), and vacuum energy conversion scales of distance of the order of the Compton wavelength. The resulting vehicle acceleration enabled achievement of almost light speed in about 4.3 hours and deceleration from light speed in about 4.3 hours. Meier said that the elapsed time during the "hyperspace jump" took only several seconds. Thus, trip time between the Pleiades star cluster and Earth with Froning’s slower-than-light Quantum Ramjet Drive plus a hypothetical tachyon drive would be 8.6 hours, which was within 20% of the Plejaren trip time reported by Meier. But, while Froning’s calculations were based on many arbitrary assumptions, and in no way proved the truthfulness of Meier's account (since it was a theoretical system he was working on, only time will tell as to which are correct) Froning was somewhat startled that his arbitrary flight time computations were within 20% of the flight time mentioned by Meier. Regarding the Meier material, Dr. Froning also publicly stated that, “My colleagues and I may have made breakthroughs in our understanding of possibilities and ways for traveling faster than light from Billy Meier's accounts of his encounters with the Plejarens.”

Eric Eliason: U.S. Geological Survey in Flagstaff, Arizona, created image-processing software so astrogeologists can analyze photographs of planets beamed back from space, spent two years producing the intricate radar map of cloud-covered Venus acquired by Pioneer 10: "In the photographs there were no sharp breaks where you could see it had been somehow artificially dubbed. And if that dubbing was registered in the film, the computer would have seen it. We didn't see anything."

Robert Post: JPL photo laboratory for 22 years, was the head of that lab in 1979, and oversaw the developing and printing of every photograph that came out of JPL at the time: "From a photography standpoint, you couldn't see anything that was fake about the Meier photos. That's what struck me. They looked like legitimate photographs. I thought, 'God, if this is real, this is going to be really something.”

Dr. Michael Malin: Principal investigator for the Mars Orbiter Camera on NASA's Mars Global Surveyor spacecraft at Malin Space Science Systems (MSSS), San Diego, CA. Analyzed Meier’s photographs in 1981: "I find the photographs themselves credible, they're good photographs. They appear to represent a real phenomenon. The story that some farmer in Switzerland is on a first name basis with dozens of aliens who come to visit him ... I find that incredible. But I find the photographs more credible. They're reasonable evidence of something. What that something is I don't know." Malin also said, "If the photographs are hoaxes then I am intrigued by the quality of the hoax. How did he do it? I'm always interested in seeing a master at work."
Steve Ambrose: Sound engineer for Stevie Wonder, inventor of the Micro Monitor radio set and speaker that fits inside Wonder's ear, analyzed the Meier sound recordings of one of the UFO’s as it hovered above him. Not only was he unable to duplicate the sounds with synthesizers, he found they created totally unique patterns on a spectrum analyzer and on the oscilloscope. Another sound engineer named Nils Rognerud corroborated Ambrose’s findings. Think about this for just a moment, these experts, using state-of-the-art equipment, were unable to duplicate the sounds and the unique patterns they generated.

Wally Gentleman: Director of Special Effects on the Canadian Film Board for ten years, director of special photographic effects for Stanley Kubrick's film 2001, had viewed Meier’s 8mm film segments of the UFO’s. Showed that the manpower and costs to fake the films were clearly beyond Meier’s reach: "My greatest problem is that for anybody faking this" (referring to one of the photographs) "the shadow that is thrown onto that tree is correct. Therefore, if somebody is faking it they have an expert there. And being an expert myself, I know that that expert knowledge is very hard to come by. So I say, 'Well, is that expert knowledge there or isn't it there?' Because if the expert knowledge isn't there, this has got to be real."

Nippon TV: Did their own examination and also came to the conclusion that there were no models, special effects or hoaxing involved in Meier’s films.

Marcel Vogel: Research chemist for IBM for twenty-two years, held thirty-two patents, and invented the magnetic disk coating memory system still used in IBM disk memories. A specialist in the conversion of energy inside crystals, Vogel probed crystalline structures with the most complete optical microscopic equipment available in the world - a system of scanning electron microscopes costing $250,000. Lieut. Col. Wendelle Stevens, USAF (Ret.): One of the original investigators in the Meier case. In 1979, he sent Vogel crystals and metal samples Meier had received from the Plejarens. Vogel reported, ”When I touched the oxide with a stainless steel probe, red streaks appeared and the oxide coating disappeared. I just touched the metal like that, and it started to deoxidize and become a pure metal. I have never seen a phenomenon like that before.” Of another metal sample containing nearly every element in the periodic table, Vogel stated, “Each pure element was bonded to each of the others, yet somehow retained its own identity.” At 500 X magnification thulium was revealed. “Thulium exists only in minute amounts. It is exceedingly expensive, far beyond platinum, and rare to come by. Someone would have to have an extensive metallurgical knowledge even to be aware of a composition of this type", said Vogel. At 1600 X Vogel said, "A whole new world appears in the specimen. There are structures within structures - very unusual." At 2500 X he found that the sample was, “metal, but at the same time ... it is crystal!"

Vogel put the full weight of his expertise in these summary comments: "With any technology that I know of, we could not achieve this on this planet! ... And I think it is important that those of us who are in the scientific world sit down and do some serious study on these things instead of putting it off as people's imagination." Again, here is another top-level scientific specialist who is unable to duplicate the material presented to him by Meier.
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Hi Scott,

I think the device is genuine, as I have also having seen a film with Meier showing it, but more importantly consider the following. When the original investigative team with Wendelle Stevens, Brit Elders and Lee Elders went to the Meier property, they saw an apple tree that Meier claimed to have shot a hole through with the weapon in the picture.

They at first thought that he might have drilled or somehow burned a hole through it. But when they examined it closely they found that it was absolutely smooth as glass all the way through it, with only some indication of a burn on the outside rim of the hole. Even more importantly, when they ran a string through the hole back into the woods EVERYTHING in a straight line, branches, leaves, twigs, etc. was singed by a narrow beam. Try to singe everything in a straight line without burning the place down or messing up more than you're trying to "hoax".

Of course, all of the armchair experts know better, which is why they have so much time on their hands. BTW, it looks like we are only a short time away from absolutely conclusive proof that the UFO in a specific film segment of Meier's actually partially dips behind a distant hill before returning from about 1/4 mile away from the camera. Jeff Ritzmann has already ruled out a model as I recall. The fact that we have a real, unsupported, large object moving from a near field to a distant one and back again will probably put some finishing touches on it as far as authenticity goes...at least for those capable of logical thought.

And you might remind the guys at ATS of this little fact:

The Swiss Military Airspace Safety Monitoring Unit reported recording 236 UFO radar sightings in the airspace above Meier's land between the 25-month period from April 1, 1993 to April 31, 1995. Particularly noteworthy were the clusters of UFO radar positions above the Zurich highlands — precisely in the area where Billy Meier has his contacts.

Note: By identifying the sightings as "UFOs" the Swiss military itself has ruled out any and all other types of known flying objects such as commercial and military aircraft, balloons, birds, etc. And by acknowledging radar installations precisely in the area where Meier has his contacts this alone should put to rest any doubts about the authenticity of Meier's UFO contacts.

To put it as nicely as I can, the poor fellas at ATS are in denial.

Best,

MH

Thank you Sir for coming down and putting points forward. The debate as mentioned to you needed something from you or Mr Meier.

Dallas

RSF

P.S. Forgot a couple of things. And please let's remember that ALL of this debate is because of the unique experiences and evidence provided by ONE (yup, one-armed) man with no accomplices, technology, finances, fishing poles, nylon line, hubcaps, pie plates, etc.

Okay, here's some of Deardorff's research:

www.tjresearch.info...
www.tjresearch.info...
www.tjresearch.info...
www.tjresearch.info...
www.tjresearch.info...
www.tjresearch.info...
www.tjresearch.info...

There after two or three threads lately, MH has made his points. Michael has probably only seen this one: now what do you all think? Wish I could ask and get Bell's opinion but in the end he could'nt make his own show. But ATS UFO life go's on..

Dallas

Originally posted by 8Michael12
Jeff Ritzmann has already ruled out a model as I recall. The fact that we have a real, unsupported, large object moving from a near field to a distant one and back again will probably put some finishing touches on it as far as authenticity goes...at least for those capable of logical thought.

Whomever said this recalled wrong, or is blatantly misrepresenting what I said. (Which seems to be par for the course for this case)

What I said was in one segment I talked about, that a "beamship" was not in back of a hill, partially obscured, but in front of it. I said this fact alone did not make the case for a hoax. And it doesnt. There's plenty more, including a serious error when identifying Meier's original film camera as a "Malcolm FTL", and not the correct Nalcom FTL.

If these Meier hardcore-ists are so good, and Horn is such an authority on the case after 26 years, then why hasnt anyone ever found this error before now?? (Sorry Mike) This is the first place you start when looking into any film footage for study. The camera.

Well, I now have excellent quality copies of said film, and of several others. I also have detailed information about a Nalcom FTL and how they behave, after calling several film schools and the Eastman Kodak House and speaking to their head research archivist.

In a bit, I'll post up some interesting grabs from that footage after asking for permission.

To Mr. Horn


Thank you so much for all of your clarification regarding Meier's Prophecies and Predictions incredible information regarding the corroborations. Also for your spent time regarding this case I find it a very respectable of your kind to try to open our eyes and see a different world and find a better way for humanity. I believe that most people who they stand a clear denial point of view or keep there skeptical idea of the case it will be difficult to change there view but sooner or later things will clarify in there own natural way... remember the "flat earth" theory.

Another thing, the links referring to the Fir Tree Pictures which have been highly criticized by skeptics, but in my opinion these pictures are the ones that intrigued me among others because of the clear quality and the idea of taking them for reference and perspective even though the Tree was eliminated by Semjase. But thanks for this new information for me is very important so that i can make a better view on how the pictures were taken.

Oddly enough, it doesn’t take psychic ability or conversations with an ET to determine that nuclear testing affects the environment.

Nor does it take a psychic to tell that continued drilling for oil and natural gas would have geological effects.

Scientists had long guessed what gasses made up Venus’ atmosphere, prior to the probe visits. The probes merely confirmed it.

Mt. Chimborazo’s being higher than Everest (technically) was known (though not well known) prior to this.

All of the outer planets were thought to have rings long before they were confirmed. Again, hardly prophetic, and the excuse of why the number of moons is incorrect, doesn’t really fly. Pray tell, what are the characteristics Plejaren’s consider to indicate “moons”?

Planetoids have long been suspected beyond Pluto. Again, no prophecy needed.

As has been stated, Meier was also wrong about the number of moons around Saturn. You’d think that info coming from ETs who’d flown there, would be more accurate regarding this, no?

The earthquakes etc. for the Feb. 3rd contact are damn close to the actual occurances…is there proof these predictions weren’t backdated, proof as in not in a self-published document, but some kind of media announcement than can be verified? Besides of course, hardly earth-shattering events in scope here. I’d have preferred the Plejarens give us a heads up about the recent Tsunami for example…

You expect unknown radar hits to leave little doubt about ET vehicles? UFOs do not automatically equal spacecraft.

Growing meat, again, one hardly needs to be psychic. Did Billy predict when and where this breakthrough would finally take place? I don’t see it there. I can say, “in the future, we will drive around in flying cars”. If and when it finally happens, it won’t make me a prophet, unless I say when and/or where. This is a similar problem with many such predictions.

As for the “sounds”….we KNOW Meier possesses access to a video camera or did at one time. Anybody with half a brain cell can see that the “video” of the UFO is clearly an object swinging from a fixed point. Why record only sound, when you could video, and why not film the aliens and the interior of the craft?

As for the photo analysis, would these “experts” agree on some of the more ridiculous photos we’ve seen, such as the one with the matchbox car, or the close-ups of the “wedding cake” UFO? I seriously doubt it…

On the material sample, have other independent labs tested this? All I’ve seen is Vogel’s comments on it.

After the “Eye of God” photo, “Asket and Nera” hoax (I know, the Swiss MIB), and the ray gun pics, can one really claim ATS in denial here?

Both sides have presented their evidence here on ATS time and time again (and I thank you for taking the time to give us your side on this Mr. Horn). In the end, I’m sure even you’ll agree that it’s up to each person to make up their own minds as to whether or not to believe Billy’s story. Personally, I’d love to believe it, but shy of him showing up on national tv with a Plejaren in tow, we’ve seen too much apparent fakery from him to buy it.

Tempting as it is to refute the "logic". i.e. attempts to dismiss Meier's specific prophetic accuracy, I'll simply remind everyone that the argument that "someone could have said this..." is easily refuted because nobody actually, factually has said/published ALL of what Meier has, with his variety, specificity and accuracy of information...spanning more than 50 years. Oh yeah, while he produced six categories of still irreproducible physical evidence, and while he was living the rest of his life in rural, semi-isolated Switzerland. (You guys should check out the seven-fingered hand prints still awaiting scientific investigation.)

I should also add that I've only given the tip of the iceberg, the German books are full of far more corroborating documentation.

Anyhow, as far as the "thing on a string theory goes":
From page 9 of the accompanying Photographic Analysis document, regarding the film clips seen above, "In the 18 March sequence Meier filmed the spacecraft circling a large tree in front of a farmhouse. The sky was overcast with a low ceiling, and occasionally light snowflakes fell. The motion of the spacecraft looks suspiciously like it is tethered from above as it appears to circle the tree and then to swing back and forth over the tree, except that on three occasions the spacecraft changes its motion abruptly with no change in the tilt of the vertical axis of the ship. If it was in fact tethered, one would expect the vertical axis to tilt as the tether point above was moved. In another measurement it was found that the tilt angle of the vertical axis in one oscillation sequence was sufficient that the axis crossed within the frame and would have put the tether point within the picture. No tether point source was revealed, in one of the final oscillation sequences the object appeared to pass directly over the top of the tree, and it is clearly seen that the tree was swept over in the direction of the spacecraft, or appeared to follow the spacecraft as it passed. Clearly no model could have produced this effect. When we revisited the scene we found that the tree had died and was cut down."

The REAL question that people should contemplate is, "when you finally realize that the Meier contacts are real, what will that mean to you, personally?"

The REAL question that people should contemplate is, "when you finally realize that the Meier contacts are real, what will that mean to you, personally?"

Nothing. Because apparently, for over 50 years, they haven't seen their way to it to come fully public, address the people of the world, and actually achieve the goal that is claimed for them, i.e. saving us from our own destruction. Instead, IF Billy Meier's claims are entirely true, then it means these Plejarens have been monkeying around letting humans play with ray guns and giving out meaningless prophecies and info we'd discover anyway, instead of focusing on truly changing the world.

They show up in ridiculous gold foil suits, fully human looking (and with 5 fingers, as was noted, not the 6 or 7 claimed), and provide only a few pieces of "evidence" to Billy to share to the world? Surely, if they can travel the vast distances of space, they are bright enough to figure out that this schtick they've been trying for over 50 years simply isn't getting the job done, and that's why it reeks of BS.

I've noticed the pics no longer show, why is that exactly?

[edit on 18-8-2005 by Morzikaga]

Originally posted by Dallas

Just wondering if you might share more info on that, such as by whom? That would surely clear up that area of Meier's writings.

Dallas

I began an interest in science fiction, the solar system and beyond about 15 years ago. I have a couple books that articulate the search for, and eventual discovery of, Pluto.

The perturbed orbit of Neptune (if I am remembering accurately) led astronomers in the eighteen hundreds to search for a ninth planet. This planet was not discovered until the thirties. You all probably know this already.

Once Pluto was discovered, its mass was found to be too small to contibute to the orbits of the outer planets in such a way as was observed.

From nineplanets.org:

After the discovery of Pluto, it was quickly determined that Pluto was too small to account for the discrepancies in the orbits of the other planets. The search for Planet X continued but nothing was found. Nor is it likely that it ever will be: the discrepancies vanish if the mass of Neptune determined from the Voyager 2 encounter with Neptune is used. There is no Planet X. But that doesn't mean there aren't other objects out there, only that there isn't a relatively large and close one like Planet X was assumed to be. In fact, we now know that there are a very large number of smaller objects in the Kuiper Belt beyond the orbit of Neptune.

Now, this paragraph is assuming in hindsight. But it does mesh with my story. With a little research into the discovery of Pluto, you will find more along these lines.