American bases in Europe and the war on terror

Hi everybody,

Do you think that the American bases in Europe are still of any use? Does anyone find this acceptable that the US has still bases in allied coutries such as Germany, Italy....

i'm French and i'm quite outraged. What would the American people think of French or German military bases on its soil?

Europe and the US must treat each other as equals. We, Europeans, have not to accept every single American will.


De Gaulle in the 60s kicked the American army out of France and so should Europe.

i dont know ludo, after all the Germans and French did invite us. i dink it was called NATO alliance where it is to defeat the Soviet Invasion. still many Germans believe in the little Americas for it helps the economy.

I agree with you totally. And I am an American. I think it is hightime to take all of our troops out of Europe. There is no need for us to be there anymore. European countries can take care of themselves. You have the European Union now. We should not be where we are not wanted. At least as far as our military is concerned. I think Europeans are great! Wish more people here were as open as Europeans are. Probally won't have as much violence here than. This is just my opinion from time I spent in the Army when I was in Europe in the early 80's.

Alot of these basses are transfer stations and temporary accomodation for soldiers in transit to other parts of the world.

Instead of packing them all in a jet and sending them over to the other side of the world, equipment and personel is kept at basses all over the world, making for fast and easy deployment of troops and a place to stay for troops when they have to go from say the US to Iraq.

Alot of the wounded soldiers returning from Iraq are sent to German Military bases for medical treatment and revalidation.

Alot of logistics used in Iraq and Afghanistan were in storage in Germany, shipped from Germany to those locations, followed by whatever extra US materials needed, being shipped trough Antwerp, taken by rail to Germany, prepped and then sent of to Afghanistan and Iraq.

The bases in Europe are so that the US has proxy bases all over the world so that they can send responce force troops to wherever they want in a very small timeframe.

The bases were put in Europe to counter 5the -at the time-soviet threat.

By having the bases there, we can "again" save europes arse.

We have saved your arses in 2 WW's-you would think that was enough.

They'll find out like, we did, that 20+% of the facilities are nothing to do with defence, they're for spying / missile tracking etc.

On us, on you and the rest of Europe (Airbus anyone?).

USAF has, mainly left UK; NSA etc etc are still here.

The spy bases, int compounds, receiver stations etc are now visible for what they are, spying facilities in US's interests not ours or a picket line of 'expendable' outposts well away from American shores

BTW Seems De Gaulle was right about Uncle Sam all along - Oui!

"Spy bases", hahahahahaaaaaa! Good one...totally without merit, proof, facts, or evidence, but a good one.

The US is already closing Kasernes and bases in Germany, England, Italy, and Luxembourg. 1st I.D. is relocating to bases in Texas.

Do you think that the American bases in Europe are still of any use? Does anyone find this acceptable that the US has still bases in allied coutries such as Germany, Italy....

I am an American and I couldn't agree more. Also I would like for you to pay all YOUR war debts back. One more thing all foriegn aid should be stoped.

Onviously Army you're correct - you know far more about my country than I do - obviously.

A simple google search 'us intelligence bases UK' brings up a few refs.

Here's one

www.quaker.org.uk...

There are more if you bother to look, rather than just spouting opinions as facts

That enough proof, evidence etc for you ?

Sorry to answer you with facts that don't fit your cosy view but that's the way of the world.

So 'Army' whaddya think to that? Please tell me, again, why I'm oh so wrong.

The US does'nt do anything without gaining something. Everything is calculated. Europe was liberated because the US was already in a race with the USSR to control most of the world and they wouldn't have accpeted a Russian controled Europe.

Did the US intervene in Rwanda in 1995?

Originally posted by Army
"Spy bases", hahahahahaaaaaa! Good one...totally without merit, proof, facts, or evidence, but a good one.

The US is already closing Kasernes and bases in Germany, England, Italy, and Luxembourg. 1st I.D. is relocating to bases in Texas.

Check out menwith hill, fylingdales. You will find that they are spy/listening stations.

Menwith Hill is an hour away from me. Fylingdales is about 2 hours away. They are both guarded 24/7.

To say there is no spy stations in the UK is wrong.
Heres some links for you Army.....

Fylingdales

Menwith Hill

Originally posted by ludo182
De Gaulle in the 60s kicked the American army out of France and so should Europe.

That is a fairly simplistic way to look at France’s and ultimately De Gaulle’s (with Pompidou) ‘reasoning’ for withdrawing completely from NATO beginning in 1963 and eventual resignation of office. But many events through the 1960's lead to many, many problems in France.

"Treaties are like roses and young girls -- they last while they last."—Charles De Gaulle

In 1963, De Gaulle would announce withdrawing from the NATO fleet in the Northern Atlantic. Later in 1965 De Gaulle would announce the full withdraw from NATO as a protest over US naval domination inside NATO, and finally in 1966 De Gaulle announced pulling out of the NATO ‘Integrated Military Command’. The US troops would leave as would all NATO related forces.

Originally posted by ludo182
i'm French and i'm quite outraged. What would the American people think of French or German military bases on its soil?

‘Outraged’ is a bit strong. Why were the troops there in the first place? Please remind me….

I am 'outraged' at the French government and Military for its’ actions through-out Africa to this day. Why are there still troops there? How do African’s feel about French troops in Africa?

.

France is in Africa yes but only in its former colonies. As far as i know Europe was not an American colony or protectorate. France's presence in African countries like Ivory Coast... is crucial. In those countries, industries are led by French people, everything is supervised by France and without France those countries would face serious problems. Most of African countries are unable to "survive" without a foreign help

Ok, so if France dosn't want American bases on its soil, pull them out. France hates our guts any way. Next time France is getting crapped on I know who they'll ask for help.

Germany needs American bases for the simple fact that after WW2 they were denied the right to have a military. Over the years they've been slowly given back those rights. And like its been pointed out several times in this thread, for years there was the threat of Soviet Invasion. And yes, There are quite a few American military personell in Germany. Right now they are resupplying our efforts in the middle east.

There are no Eurpean military bases on American Soil for the obvious reason... America can defend herself!

400 bilions $ ( the American military budget for a year) didn't prevent a bunch of guys with cuters to hit the pentagon and the world tarde center.

Sorry guys, i like America but friends have to share some truths. The American startegy is always the same : setting up bases in other countries whan it's needed and when those bases become useless , the US keep them and doesn't dismantle them.

1) in Europe
2) in Saudi Arabia, bases were built because of the first gulf war and after the war American troops stayed.

Originally posted by ludo182
France is in Africa yes but only in its former colonies.

Former colonies 45+ years ago! yes.

The year 1960 alone, Togo (UN Trust Territory), Malagasy Republic, Somaliland, Dahomey, Upper Volta, Ivory Coast, Chad, Congo, Gabon, Mali, Niger and Senegal all gained independence from France. Later in 1961, the French army revolted in Algeria which leads to Algeria’s eventual independence.

Originally posted by ludo182
As far as i know Europe was not an American colony or protectorate.

Correct, but the US troops are there as part the NATO agreement and BTW have been cut down significantly over the past two decades. Which would lead the answer to the question I posed which was not answered....Why are the troops there in the first place?

Originally posted by ludo182
400 bilions $ ( the American military budget for a year) didn't prevent a bunch of guys with cuters to hit the pentagon and the world tarde center.

The US military budget is irrelevant to your statements.

Originally posted by ludo182
France's presence in African countries like Ivory Coast... is crucial.

For France! and France's continued financial interest and protection of:

The Bolloré group, CFAO Group, Castel Group, Dagris, Total and The General Society just to name a few.

Also, I greatly doubt those that reside in these 'neo-colonial' regions agree with you.

Congruent with just a few examples such as….

The French military intervention, (Operation Unicorn) in the Ivory Coast, 2002; the known fact French businesses only return a quarter of the true market value of Ivorian exports to the country, all the while maintaining absolute French dominance in imported goods.

All this by supporting a French puppet presidency that segregated the entire country and embraced the French "peace-keeping" force (aka the ‘Foreign Legion’), these “peace keeping” troops were authorized to shoot anyone who ‘might’ obstruct or ‘hinder’ their movements and operations and did.
(Operation Unicorn Link)

Cote d' Ivoire, giving ‘implied independence’ in 1958, yet France maintaining the majority of the government authority.

Let’s not forget the French-Rwandan operation and France's full military action assisting in the escape of the French-backed and equipped, outfitted and financed perpetrators who initiated the
“Hutu-Tutsi genocide” that claimed 800,000+ lives!

Oh, and the French arranged and provided transport and de facto sanctuary for Agathe Kanziga!

The list goes on and on infinitum…careful pointing 'nationalistic' fingers.

Originally posted by ludo182
Sorry guys, i like America but friends have to share some truths. The American startegy is always the same : setting up bases in other countries whan it's needed and when those bases become useless , the US keep them and doesn't dismantle them.

Apparently, France never leaves either, so….


.

Originally posted by noise
Ok, so if France dosn't want American bases on its soil, pull them out.

There are none.

Originally posted by noise
Germany needs American bases for the simple fact that after WW2 they were denied the right to have a military.

They were already allowed an army again back in 1955 and are perfectly capable of defending themselves. The Soviet threat is gone and the only reason why Germany still tolerates them is that it doesn't want to upset America by asking them to leave and because of the employment the bases create, so the government would look unpopular if suddenly a lot of people in a specific area went unemployed. However, the benefit of the US bases to the greater German economy is virtually nihil. Plus the US troops are yet to have incidents like in Japan where they raped a 12 year old schoolgirl and nearly got away with it, drive two schoolgirls to death in South Korea and got away with it or killed over a dozen tourists in Italy wanting to stunt fly and got away with it.

[edit on 13-8-2005 by Simon666]

as posted by simon666
...only reason why Germany still tolerates them is that it doesn't want to upset America by asking them to leave...

The "only" reason, simon666?
Really?
Nice uninformed rhetoric, and yes, rhetoric, being what you posted after saying such to back your uninformed assertion.

Having been brought up in a military family that was stationed over in Germany [ie: where my brother was born also] for a combined 7 years [Darmstadt and K-town-- Kaiserslautern], and having served in the US military myself, having been stationed 2 years in Wiesbaden, I can attest to the fact that the German people did/do not want the US there [ie: this is a long running theme anyhow], but because it was the Cold War, and the Germans feared the Russians more than the US, and the economic benefits inherently gained from those bases being there, the German government did not demand or desire the US to close all US bases in Germany. In my last tour there, when the US was contemplating closing a number of bases in Germany, some of the German people who had previously [for years, if not decades] professed and argued that the US should leave and go home, when the actual word came down that they in fact might and will, then professed that they desired them to stay for varying reasons, economics being the main one.

I find it ironic you stipulate "only reason why Germany still tolerates them", when it was the German people who dictated to the German government whether to get involved on the side of the US and UK in going into Iraq to remove Saddam. The German government followed the will and 'consensus of desire' of the German people, not the other way around. If that is correct, then why is the German government not listening to the will and desire of the people now? Again, I would wager that one reason that the German government does not ask the US to close their bases in Germany and leave is because of sheer economics and the benefits those bases give to the communities that they are based within or around. There are a number of other factors, such as unemployment rates being further lynched up higher by closing those US bases [being that those US bases employ German civilains in significant numbers], as well. Don't think I am on mark [forgive the pun] here, might want to read this:
U.S. Troop Pullout Would Hit Germany Hard


IMHO, the US should close all but about two or three bases in Germany. Incidently, this may be of interest to you and others?
U.S. to Return 11 Bases to Germany in Fiscal 2007





seekerof

[edit on 13-8-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof
I can attest to the fact that the German people did/do not want the US there [ie: this is a long running theme anyhow], but because it was the Cold War, and the Germans feared the Russians more than the US,

Well, it is 2005 now, so I don't see how a no longer existing Soviet threat is to be some sort of additional reason that refutes my claim.

Originally posted by Seekerof
and the economic benefits inherently gained from those bases being there, the German government did not demand or desire the US to close all US bases in Germany.

Check my previous post, I also mentioned those economic benefits, I did say though that those benefits only play locally and mean next to nothing in the wider German economy.

Originally posted by Seekerof
In my last tour there, when the US was contemplating closing a number of bases in Germany, some of the German people who had previously [for years, if not decades] professed and argued that the US should leave and go home, when the actual word came down that they in fact might and will, then professed that they desired them to stay for varying reasons, economics being the main one.

That would be the people living around the bases which makes perfect sense. For the average Hanz living some random place in Germany, the US military base makes no difference to him and the contribution to the German economy in general is neglectable so he wouldn't be concerned at the least of any economic aspect.

Originally posted by Seekerof
I find it ironic you stipulate "only reason why Germany still tolerates them", when it was the German people who dictated to the German government whether to get involved on the side of the US and UK in going into Iraq to remove Saddam. The German government followed the will and 'consensus of desire' of the German people, not the other way around. If that is correct, then why is the German government not listening to the will and desire of the people now?

Because it doesn't play in people's minds and hearts. They are considered an inconvenience but tolerated. They don't bother anyone. For German politicians, if they ask to close it, they get political fallout from an angry Washington and upset locals around the bases. The general population will however just say good riddance and that will be it, they won't thank the government for it as it is not an issue that keeps them awake at night. A major screwup however would make it an issue that plays in the back of people's minds, but like I said, that has fortunately not happened yet.

Originally posted by Seekerof
Again, I would wager that one reason that the German government does not ask the US to close their bases in Germany and leave is because of sheer economics and the benefits those bases give to the communities that they are based within or around.

Again, I already mentioned that in my previous post and you seem to think that somehow entire Germany benefits significantly economically from the US bases. This is not true but for the communities around those bases.

Originally posted by Seekerof
There are a number of other factors, such as unemployment rates...

That is not another factor, that is still the economic factor and I also mentioned unemployment in my previous post. So far I've come across nothing in your post that really refutes anything I've said or gives additional important reasons. I suggest you read my post again entirely as it seems you've lost me from a certain sentence on and angrily pressed the reply with quote button.


Considering your articles:

U.S. soldiers and their families pump billions of dollars into Germany's economy. Base closures would have a massive impact on local communities.

Note: it says a massive impact on local communities, not the wider German economy. Again only confirms what I said. Btw, for your information, the German GDP is 2.16 trillion dollar, so if US input is say, 2 billion dollar, it's importance would be 0,1% of the GDP or, as I said in my previous post, virtually nihil.

Originally posted by Seekerof
IMHO, the US should close all but about two or three bases in Germany. Incidently, this may be of interest to you and others?
U.S. to Return 11 Bases to Germany in Fiscal 2007

Well, that part of your post I can agree with and support.

Excuse me, but if the local communities are effected, is not the economy of Germany effected overall? We are talking billions here, simon666, not mere millions.

If the locally employed Germans become unemployed, does that not reflect itself in the overall unemployment numbers of Germany?

Being your not from Germany, nor a citizen of Germany, are you speaking for the Germans who will undoubtedly be effected with any type legit justification? Correct me if I am wrong here. The German article provided shows and indicates that Germany, overall, will indeed be effected. Any German economist to say or indicate otherwise?




seekerof

[edit on 13-8-2005 by Seekerof]